Author Topic: You make the call ...  (Read 9919 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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You make the call ...
« on: February 03, 2006, 11:45:00 AM »
Ok, this is the thread where everyone
gets to make the call.

Hindsight is your tool.

Foresight is missing ...

Blame, opinions, stigma, anger, love ...
it could all be here, just participate!
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2006, 12:00:00 PM »
On January 3, 1999, Andrew Goldstein, 29, a man with a history of schizophrenia, pushed Kendra Webdale, 32, under the wheels of an oncoming subway train, killing her. Goldstein, who confessed to the crime, has been charged with second-degree murder. According to a police source, he also recounted several past incidents in which he had assaulted women. Goldstein had been hospitalized six times in 1998 for the treatment of schizophrenia, the last time less than three weeks before the attack. He was not taking his antipsychotic medication at the time of the attack and told police that a psychotic episode caused him to believe that a "'spirit or ghost'" entered his body and prompted him to push Webdale under the train. Goldstein was found competent to stand trial for murder on April 5, 1999 after Justice Carol Berkman cited reports from two psychiatrists who contended that Goldstein functioned well while on medication. His first trial, where he pleaded not guity by reason of insanity, ended in a mistrial after the jury deadlocked on whether he was insane at the time of the murder. Webdale's mother filed two lawsuits in connection with her daughter's death. The first one sued seven private medical institutions for $70 million, charging they were negligent for releasing Goldstein from inpatient hospitalization when he had a history of noncompliance with medication and was known to be dangerous when unmedicated. Subsequent History: In December 2004, a four-judge panel of the State Supreme Court?s Appellate Division unanimously upheld Goldstein's murder conviction. Goldstein, 34, was convicted of second-degree murder on March 22, 2000 and is serving a sentence of 25 years to life in prison.
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2006, 08:10:00 PM »
Well, if you take the two shrinks' reports, you start from the premis that the medication made him well able to reason and function, right? Whatever that meant to the medical professionals, evidently this guy thought it worth the risk to get off of the stuff. He lost that gamble and so did a presumably innocent bystander.

Now don't take that the wrong way. I'm not trying to cast any disparigment onto Ms. Webdale. It's just that it's unknown. Maybe she was a total stranger, maybe she was his psycho girlfriend who had been antagonizing him for years. It's just unknonwn at this point.

But I believe we all have the right to take that gamble for all the same reasons why we all have the natural right to take drugs if we believe the benefits outweigh the risks.

Which do you think would be worse? Dying a sudden, unexpected, untimely and greusome death under the wheels of a train or getting stuck for life either under incarceration or under the influence of drugs that you can't stand?

And what are the relative odds? I'd say it's an extremely rare event that someone in a state of delusion, whether due to drugs or the lack of them, does any serious harm to anyone. How many people are involuntarily committed unjustly and then driven crazy in the process?

Under the best and most benevolent government in history, the odds are pretty good that for law being enforced. Under this government? Darlin, they sincerely believe that people who smoke pot at all are twice crazy; by virtue of the overpowering haleucenagenic and addictive properties of the demon weed and, by doing it anyway, knowing they might take your kids, toss you in a cell for a long time, fine you and kick your ass in the process.

Clearly, doing something that might bring about that sort of risk is insane, isn't it? Not really, it's just personal dignity. The crime is in properly attributing the bad outcome to the actors, not to a mildly impairing euphoric herb.

But as long as the folks in charge now are holding most of the guns (and this goes back to Eisenhower, in ernest to Nixon) they're not going to mess w/ people who act like Steve Cartisano or Andrea Yates. They're going after the pot smokers. They'll get to the crazy people next, they keep promising.

Nope, I think I'll take my chances w/ you deciding your drugs aren't worth it. You, off your drugs, even if you lived next door to me, scare me a whole bitch of a lot less than those people.

Check this out :wink:

If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base.
-- Dave Barry

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2006, 12:43:00 AM »
Whew, it is difficult to agree with your premises.

I think is she was his girlfriend or tormentor it would have come out in the news. I would be darn surprised if it was random, when it was in fact not.

I don't agree with blaming the victim. People just don't deserved to be pushed into trains.

---

As far as how many are getting locked up for involuntary treatment?

Hospitals, for example, as stated on this forum before, St. Elizabeth's Psychiatric Hospital had a peak inpatient population, now it is about 500. They are building a new hospital for 300, with 200 having to be discharged soon.

So, compared to the good ole days, before those SSRI's and anti-psychotic drugs that stopped catatonia and unrelenting psychosis ... it was worse. The simple question of, if all these people are forced into involuntary inpatient hospitals, there are no where to be seen in the numbers that the quoted websites that have been posted here.
Math, just simple math de-bunks that delusion.

As for standing back and allowing the illness to influence an individual to the point that they commit a jailable offence. That is working quite well. The mentally ill population in jail is rising at an impressive rate.

It is reported on every one of those MSNBC, and PBS Frontline, stories that the jails are the largest psychiatric facility in each county.

So for those mentally ill that have a violent profile, the price of freedom is a temporary free pass and a permenent negative solution to civil rights ... jail.

As far as you willing, or wanting to live next to a free to have their psychosis run its gamut that is commendable, I don't know if you neighbors would agree with you.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2006, 12:53:00 PM »
Well, what's worse, mental institutions or jail?

There is growing evidence that SSRIs and other psychotic drugs are not the miracle they were hoped to be, and many distressed but not violent people, have committed suicide or homicide while taking them or upon withdrawal. Check the TTI thread on SSRIs for many such stories. Google SSRI + suicide/homicide.

You praise these miracle drugs for closing down mental hospitals and giving the 'MI' freedom, but if that's the case, why are "jails the largest psychiatric facilities in each county"?

There are no simple answers to human distress. The problem with addressing this on such a broad scale is that there is no one-size-fits-all solution, just as with the TTI, when many times people's distress is due to anti-life government policies. And consequently, many innocents end up drugged against their will because people like you live in fear of being pushed under a train by someone who you believe would not do such a thing if forced to take drugs. Just not the case. That person may do the very same thing while ON drugs. Just no way of telling how anyone will react to drug treatment. Many pot smokers are serving longer terms than the distressed individual who pushed someone into an oncoming train. And, for all we know, he may have been on drugs, but claimed he wasn't to bolster his defense of insanity.

Mental hospitals, jails- neither useful, both punitive/abusive environments. Holding tanks for the socially undesirable because few people know how to help a distressed person. And unfortunately, many innocents end up being thrown under the industry train. Where is your empathy for those 'victims'. "Oh well, some will be sacrificed in order to save me from the ocassional wigged-out killer"?

http://onegoodmove.org/1gm/1gmarchive/001658.html
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2006, 10:11:00 AM »
Quote

You praise these miracle drugs for closing down mental hospitals and giving the 'MI' freedom, but if that's the case, why are "jails the largest psychiatric facilities in each county"?


85 percent of Schizphrenics do not take their prescribed meds. I don't know the percentages for
Bipolar and Depression. Although I don't think the
depressed are at risk for going to jail.

Not taking meds plus the high percentage of prisoners testing positive for meth at the time
of their crimes, I heard 90%, unconfirmd, is a
pretty good protocol for re-institutionalization
the mentally ill into jails.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2006, 11:49:00 AM »
Quote
"Well, what's worse, mental institutions or jail?"


I am sure a jail is a worse environment that a psychiatric hospital.

For this discussion though, it is not too relevant.

These "forced treatment" law updated movement around the country is for outpatient treatment.

If you don't know what ACT, Assertive Community Treatment, is I can find something to post.

Community = outpatient
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2006, 03:37:00 PM »
What I notice is that almost every week there is a news story of someone taking psych drugs having committed suicide or homicide. Something's not working. How can you expect society to jump on the drug treatment wagon when so many of the drugs cause the same effects they profess to 'cure'?
How many people are jailed who WERE taking their drugs and still committed crimes? That's the statistic I'm interested in.
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2006, 07:39:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-02-05 08:49:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
Quote

"Well, what's worse, mental institutions or jail?"




I am sure a jail is a worse environment that a psychiatric hospital.

I'm not. Not at all. In jail, nobody's needling you for intimate details, obsessing over your every mood and behavior or trying in ernest to convince you that that you're nuts.

Quote

For this discussion though, it is not too relevant.

Yeah it is.

Quote

These "forced treatment" law updated movement around the country is for outpatient treatment.

ORLY! And how, prey tell, do you think they enforce this outpatient treatment?

Quote

If you don't know what ACT, Assertive Community Treatment, is I can find something to post.



Community = outpatient "


Sure it does, provided you comply w/ your case worker or shrink demands and don't piss them off.

Ministers say that they teach charity. That is natural. They live on hand-outs. All beggars teach that others should give.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2006, 07:45:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-02-05 12:37:00, Deborah wrote:

"

What I notice is that almost every week there is a news story of someone taking psych drugs having committed suicide or homicide.

Well, you are the "researcher", I wonder why you don't have the aswers that you ask here. My guess is that the conspiricy site you visit may not be provided all the answers you are asking.

If all the answers where provided your foundation may be made out of sand, and you will find those that have carved out a niche as professional critics and sold you and many others a lot of hearsay that you consume and regurgitate as gospel.

It doesn't take a rocket scientest to know that the amount of people not mentally ill who commit suicide, or homicide on a weekly basis is much, much higher.

Studies have shown that the mentally are are less violent than the mentally ill on a per capita basis.

Any negative event involving a mentally ill person captures the attention of the public, so the news prints it, or shows it on TV.

It also provides the foundation for the anti sites
to have a cause ...

You may not see if now, but someday in retrospect you may recognize this, or maybe not ... who knows how much reality a person who is not involved daily with the symptomatic mental illness would tolerate if they did get involved.

Quote
Something's not working. How can you expect society to jump on the drug treatment wagon when so many of the drugs cause the same effects they profess to 'cure'?

Cure? You said cure? Wow, you are either kidding, or writing this down without thinking.

No one ever said psychotropic medication cures mental illness. That is why it is called a chronic illness. Look it up, enjoy the process of getting educated.

Quote
How many people are jailed who WERE taking their drugs and still committed crimes? That's the statistic I'm interested in."


Go ahead and research it, let me know the answer - thanks!
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2006, 08:02:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-02-05 16:39:00, Eudora wrote:

"
Quote
I am sure a jail is a worse environment that a psychiatric hospital.




I'm not. Not at all. In jail, nobody's needling you for intimate details, obsessing over your every mood and behavior or trying in ernest to convince you that that you're nuts.



Quote


For this discussion though, it is not too relevant.




Yeah it is.
Quote

I trust you know your children's issues. Just as equally I have the impression that you don't know your adult mental health issues. Probably because you have not been there, but gained your knowledge by reading biased opinion type information.

Well psych hospitals are not the big manipulative gulags that you think they are. Forever underfunded the complaint is too little care, too little interaction with doctors and professional staff. What they are know as is a safer envirnment than jail.

Why would anyone want to put someone with a chronic disease in a jail, instead of a hospital?

Quote


These "forced treatment" law updated movement around the country is for outpatient treatment.




ORLY! And how, prey tell, do you think they enforce this outpatient treatment?



Quote

Well that is a no-brainer to answer. If a misdemeaner is committed a diversion program is offered called ACT, an outpatient program.

The person can always refuse and just do the jail time that they where convicted of, there is no manipulation. If one wants to go to jail, go. The outpatient diversion programs are an alternative to jail.

How did you not know that?




If you don't know what ACT, Assertive Community Treatment, is I can find something to post.





Community = outpatient "




Sure it does, provided you comply w/ your case worker or shrink demands and don't piss them off.




Again, "forced" or Assertive Community Treatment is misunderstood. No one convicted of a crime, that has a jail sentence has to do outpatient diversion instead. Just say no! It is simple.

Then the horror of not going to jail would never enter the picture. Just think, no case managers, no medications just do one's time in the paradise they call prison.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2006, 08:12:00 PM »
Where are all these happy symptomatic mental
people that you all are alluding?

I don't see them?

You do?

Where are they, I would like to talk to them
and see how they have become so happy being
chronically symptomatic.

The folks I have met who had psychosis,
delusion and hallucionations hated them.

The people I know who have been manic,
usually cannot remember the mania, and
all hate the aftermath, high debts,
broken relationship, torpedoed careers,
family problems, etc.

The depressed?  Again I don't know anyone who wants to continue to be depressed. I also
don't know anyone who looks back on their
active depressions as a good time.

So, I am curious, and really would like
to meet these folks who are happy being
symptomatically mentally ill. Thanks!
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2006, 08:56:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-02-05 16:45:00, Anonymous wrote:

It doesn't take a rocket scientest to know that the amount of people not mentally ill who commit suicide, or homicide on a weekly basis is much, much higher.


Really? I think there's the rare case where those are sane options. But, in most practical situations, you'd have to be fuckin' nuts to kill yourself or anyone else.

When dogma enters the brain, all intellectual activity ceases.
http://www.kbuxton.com/discordia/' target='_new'>Robert Anton Wilson

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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2006, 09:17:00 PM »
I can't even sort this out. Sorry. Can you repost that and I'll delete the first one?

Don't let your dogma run out in front of your karma.
--Anonymous

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2006, 10:03:00 PM »
Quote
Can you repost that and I'll delete the first one?


Definately, I thought I did the quote, /quote
correctly, but when I checked it, what a mess.

For now on, when I answer too many points, I
will just make a new post.
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