Did You Receive a Psychiatric Evaluation at HLA?

[Troll Control]

Still no takers?  Has ANYBODY received a psych eval from HLA?  Anybody?

[HLA Truth]

On 2006-02-07 05:58:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:

"Still no takers?  Has ANYBODY received a psych eval from HLA?  Anybody?
"

Your not going to have the anti-HLA crowd on this board admit that they had testing done here, because it would prove the point that it does happen.  I know, FOR A FACT, that many of the regular contributors on this site have had testing done at HLA.  Most that did not have it done at HLA, had it done just prior to coming to HLA.

[odie]

Well I for one would love to hear from a Pro HLA'er if they got an eval when they were there since their license says they should have had one PRIOR to admission. It could be coincidence to have the majority of the kids come up with the same diagnosis (ODD)but I think I'd feel a bit more comfortable if I knew that these kids weren't all being diagnosed by the same person and were sent to psychiatrists in their home community for a psych eval.

The law in its majestic equality, forbids all men to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread - the rich as well as the poor

--Anatole France

[HLA Truth]

That's fair.  But, you have to realize that you are not going to find a specific test that tests just for ODD.  A diagnosis for ODD is not that hard to put on someone based on the criteria of the DSM IV.  Many teens would fall into that diagnosis if you wanted to push the issue.  The psych testing is used more to help formulate treatment plans and often times to rule out what we do NOT need to work on.  ODD type behavior is often times just surface behavior that is masking the true issue.  That's why if you are going to have a kid go to a program like this, I want you to make sure it is one with all Masters Level counselors.  If a program is merely looking at the ODD behaviors they are sorely missing the boat.

[Troll Control]

On 2006-02-07 07:52:00, HLA Truth wrote:

"That's fair.  But, you have to realize that you are not going to find a specific test that tests just for ODD.  A diagnosis for ODD is not that hard to put on someone based on the criteria of the DSM IV.  Many teens would fall into that diagnosis if you wanted to push the issue.  The psych testing is used more to help formulate treatment plans and often times to rule out what we do NOT need to work on.  ODD type behavior is often times just surface behavior that is masking the true issue.  That's why if you are going to have a kid go to a program like this, I want you to make sure it is one with all Masters Level counselors.  If a program is merely looking at the ODD behaviors they are sorely missing the boat."

Excellent point.

I'd like to point out though that ODD is overused by nearly all of these places.  It is overwhelmingly a disorder of children UNDER 10 YEARS of age, not teens.

I personally have seen ODD applied at HLA without any evaluation or psychometric testing whatsoever.  It was more like "Give a diagnosis, get a check."

[odie]

[/quote]



Excellent point.



I'd like to point out though that ODD is overused by nearly all of these places.  It is overwhelmingly a disorder of children UNDER 10 YEARS of age, not teens.


Yes it is and very rarely is it a singular diagnosis, its usually secondary to an adhd diagnosis, again not diagnosed in teens. It just struck me as being odd that they would emphasise the ODD on its website

Infidel: In New York, one who does not believe in the Christian religion; in Constantinople, one who does.
--Ambrose Bierce

[Deborah]

On 2006-02-07 07:52:00, HLA Truth wrote:

"That's fair.  But, you have to realize that you are not going to find a specific test that tests just for ODD.  A diagnosis for ODD is not that hard to put on someone based on the criteria of the DSM IV.  Many teens would fall into that diagnosis if you wanted to push the issue.  The psych testing is used more to help formulate treatment plans and often times to rule out what we do NOT need to work on.  ODD type behavior is often times just surface behavior that is masking the true issue.  That's why if you are going to have a kid go to a program like this, I want you to make sure it is one with all Masters Level counselors.  If a program is merely looking at the ODD behaviors they are sorely missing the boat."

What difference would it make if all the counselors are following the one-size-fits-all methods of the program?

I agree, that there is confusion, anger/ resentment underlying 'ODD'. And many times it is healthy indignation, albeit, not in their best interest, as it can land them in a program or worse.
How are those underlying issues addressed specifically? In my son's case, he was not allowed to talk about the resentment he felt toward his dad and step-mom. Or his confusion.
How does a kid resolve those 'issues' if speaking of them is labeled manipulation and punished? He would've done better back at home with his old therapist whose best advice was to tell him to imagine they were ants and smash them between his fingers. There is only so much outside 'help' can do when a child has extremely unreasonable and divested parents. Parents who hire a therapist to work up 'contracts' with their children and then don't hold up their end of the contract. Who's ODD in that situation? So the kid is punished for the shortcomings of the parent.  

My son was dx/labeled on the spot, based on his father's complaints. Did anyone ask his dad what he might be doing to provoke such an antagonistic response? No. Did they 'teach' his dad a new way of communicating that might elicite a different response? No. They conditioned my son to 'avoid conflict' by keeping his thoughts and feelings to himself, to not challenge or question anything, to defer to authority. Surface discussion only. Nothing of importance or relevance that might cause his father discomfort. That is not the 'therapy' I would choose for myself or my son.

Do you have children, Truth?

[Deborah]

POSITION STATEMENT
ON THE USE OF PHYSICAL ACTIVITY AS PUNISHMENT
By California Association for Health, Physical Education, Recreation and Dance (CAHPERD)

The California Association for Health, Physical Education, Recreation and Dance is committed to the development of positive attitudes toward activity and active lifestyle habits in children and adults.

One of the prime goals of physical education programs is to provide students with positive experiences which will motivate them to pursue and develop active lifestyles. CAHPERD supports the California Physical and Health Related Fitness Test and the objectives of teaching youth about the importance of fitness and active lifestyles to their health.

The practice of utilizing physical activity (running laps and doing calisthenics) as punishment develops student attitudes that are contrary to the stated objectives of CAHPERD.
Teachers do not punish children with reading and then expect them to develop a joy for reading. Neither should teachers punish with exercise and expect children to develop a love of activity.
Not only is the use of physical activity as punishment contrary to the philosophy of CAHPERD, it is illegal. The California State Education Code states that: "No person employed or engaged in a public school shall inflict, or cause to be inflicted corporal punishment upon a pupil" The Code defines corporal punishment as "the willful infliction of, or willfully causing the infliction of, physical pain in a pupil." Punishing a child with lap running or push-ups imposes both physical and mental stress on a person. The physical and psychological damage are immeasurable.

THEREFORE, CAHPERD takes a position opposing the use of any form of physical activity as punishment in school and recreational programs.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
A letter about exercise as punishment from Linda Carpenter, Ph.D., J.D., Professor, Department of Physical Education, Brooklyn College of the City University of New York to Bill Honig, Superintendent, California State Department of Education.
Dear Dr. Honig:
California's ban on the use of corporal punishment demonstrates the state's commitment to the future of its students.
However, if reports recently published in the Sacramento Bee correctly reflect the position of your office on the exclusion of exercise related punishment from the ban, I must express my grave concern over the wisdom used in reaching your decision.
One of the primary reasons for including physical education within the curriculum is that students will be able to obtain the skills and appreciation necessary for a lifetime involvement in the health-promoting aspects of exercise. This is laudable.
However, when teachers convert the same activity which they are trying to have students interpret as valuable to their lifelong health into a punishment, all positive pedagogical and logical principles have been abandoned. This is foolish, inappropriate and abusive to students.
Before your office continues to suggest or even condone such an abandonment of pedagogical and logical principles, I urge you to rethink your decision concerning the exclusion of exercise-related punishment from the corporal punishment ban.
Sincerely,
Linda Carpenter, Ph.D., J.D.
Professor
cc: Jordan Riak, PTAVE

[HLA Truth]

I don't know who your son is, but want you are describing is the complete opposite of what I would want for a child at HLA.  If you what you say is true, I am truly sorry that you had that experience.  I feel the staff at HLA currently do a good job at looking at the family dynamics (all the parents, not just one)and the role that has played in the child having difficulties.  Because of situations like yours, I have always felt that children should not be allowed to enroll in programs like this, unless both parents are in agreement of the placement.  It just doesn't work otherwise.

[HLA Truth]

On 2006-02-07 12:39:00, Deborah wrote:

"

POSITION STATEMENT

ON THE USE OF PHYSICAL ACTIVITY AS PUNISHMENT

By California Association for Health, Physical Education, Recreation and Dance (CAHPERD)



The California Association for Health, Physical Education, Recreation and Dance is committed to the development of positive attitudes toward activity and active lifestyle habits in children and adults.



One of the prime goals of physical education programs is to provide students with positive experiences which will motivate them to pursue and develop active lifestyles. CAHPERD supports the California Physical and Health Related Fitness Test and the objectives of teaching youth about the importance of fitness and active lifestyles to their health.



The practice of utilizing physical activity (running laps and doing calisthenics) as punishment develops student attitudes that are contrary to the stated objectives of CAHPERD.

Teachers do not punish children with reading and then expect them to develop a joy for reading. Neither should teachers punish with exercise and expect children to develop a love of activity.

Not only is the use of physical activity as punishment contrary to the philosophy of CAHPERD, it is illegal. The California State Education Code states that: "No person employed or engaged in a public school shall inflict, or cause to be inflicted corporal punishment upon a pupil" The Code defines corporal punishment as "the willful infliction of, or willfully causing the infliction of, physical pain in a pupil." Punishing a child with lap running or push-ups imposes both physical and mental stress on a person. The physical and psychological damage are immeasurable.



THEREFORE, CAHPERD takes a position opposing the use of any form of physical activity as punishment in school and recreational programs.



+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

A letter about exercise as punishment from Linda Carpenter, Ph.D., J.D., Professor, Department of Physical Education, Brooklyn College of the City University of New York to Bill Honig, Superintendent, California State Department of Education.

Dear Dr. Honig:

California's ban on the use of corporal punishment demonstrates the state's commitment to the future of its students.

However, if reports recently published in the Sacramento Bee correctly reflect the position of your office on the exclusion of exercise related punishment from the ban, I must express my grave concern over the wisdom used in reaching your decision.

One of the primary reasons for including physical education within the curriculum is that students will be able to obtain the skills and appreciation necessary for a lifetime involvement in the health-promoting aspects of exercise. This is laudable.

However, when teachers convert the same activity which they are trying to have students interpret as valuable to their lifelong health into a punishment, all positive pedagogical and logical principles have been abandoned. This is foolish, inappropriate and abusive to students.

Before your office continues to suggest or even condone such an abandonment of pedagogical and logical principles, I urge you to rethink your decision concerning the exclusion of exercise-related punishment from the corporal punishment ban.

Sincerely,

Linda Carpenter, Ph.D., J.D.

Professor

cc: Jordan Riak, PTAVE

"

I can respect that philosophy, even if I don't agree with it.  I do have a question, however.  What would you do instead?  I am not being a smart ass, I really want to know.  For instance, if a student called a teacher a "fucking bitch" because the teacher assigned an essay for homework.  According to you, what is the most effective way of handling that?  Again, I am not being a smart ass, I think this is an important part of the debate.

[Troll Control]

For instance, if a student called a teacher a "fucking bitch" because the teacher assigned an essay for homework. According to you, what is the most effective way of handling that?

First, I'd say that one needs to "catch the kid being good."  Praise and positive reinforcement are the best way to elicit desired behaviors.

Second, since your program is really all about behavior modification, why not listen to the experts on BM if you're going to employ it at your facility (not my recommendation)?  I would say that after working in the BM field for ten years or more, you would be educated to one of the basic tenets of BM theory:  The most effective, fastest, longest lasting way to extinguish any behavior is to ignore it.

That's not me saying it, that's the behaviorists.  Dozens upon dozens of clinical trials have borne this out.  

Conversely, it has been shown that punishment is only mildly effective at extinguishing behavior and its results only last as long as the punishment is applied consistently.

I also would add that even intermittent reinforcement of desired behavior is far more effective at producing desired behavior than punishment, even rigidly consistent, ever could be.  

So, when punishment, even if applied with complete consistency (impossible outside of the laboratory) has only weak, fleeting results and positive reinforcement, even when applied only intermittently (obviously applies to the "real world" treatment environment), is proven lasting and effective, WHY THE HELL DON'T YOU USE IT?

[Antigen]

On 2006-02-07 15:38:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:

The most effective, fastest, longest lasting way to extinguish any behavior is to ignore it.

I would tend to agree w/ that. I tell my kid to do something or tell her now, she says "You suck!" I say "Yup, I do."

He who laughs lasts
--Crazy Mac

[odie]

First, I'd say that one needs to "catch the kid being good." Praise and positive reinforcement are the best way to elicit desired behaviors.


Wow I agree with DJ twice in one week :eek:

Now thats a great way to prevent a lot of negative behaviors but let me address the question of what to do with a kid that has a slip and calls a teacher a bitch.

So what if he does? Maybe she is one. If she has any clue as to what type of environment she has chosen to work in she needs to learn to deal with it. Her job would be to refer the incident to the kids counselor. Its a counseling issue and not one that should result in any type of immediate punishment. Any consequences to the kid's actions need to be agreed upon by the counselor and the kid. The teacher should have no input in consequences.

We must create an atmosphere where the crooked cop fears the honest cop, and not the other way around.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006JU7T/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'>Frank Serpico

[Deborah]

I have to agree with what has been said. Say nothing or something like, ?Yeh the assignment is due tomorrow. The choice is yours. Turn something in for a grade or take a zero. If you need some help, I?m happy to assist.? The problem with programs and program parents is that they are more invested in kid?s success than the kid is. You think that you are making deep, lasting changes because the kid?s learn to ?act? to your liking? Because by the time they leave they are no longer calling their teacher a bitch?
 
A good counselor doesn?t take that stuff personally. Teachers shouldn?t either, or they?d be well advised to consider a different career. I perceive that as an indicator of the kid?s inner feelings. Punishing someone who is already hurt, angry, confused is not therapeutic. Are the inner feelings really important, or just the outward show of compliance?  

If the situation allowed, I?d pull the kid aside and ask if he had some resentment toward me that he?d like to express- and let him go for it. My experience with kids (and most adults) is that they often resort to name calling and the use of expletives when they are distressed and/or they don?t feel their genuine complaints and feelings will be taken seriously. Emotions and rational thought are like oil and water. They don?t mix well. So if the kid has the opportunity to vent the feelings, they can almost always express what?s really bugging them. If being in such a cold, austere, clinical bubble is what?s bugging them, they might need to vent on a daily basis. I advised my son to find ways to vent that wouldn?t be punished. Like throwing a ball against a wall. Since his counselors were listening in, I?m sure his access to sports equipment was curtailed for some period of time.

I never once got the sense that the goal was to help my son explore and resolve resentment he held toward his dad and step-mom or about his placement, or unecessarily loosing two years of his life. It was clearly about shutting him down. Silencing his legitimate concerns and complaints. You know where that unexpressed resentment goes? Calling teachers bitches. Or it?s turned inward, manifesting in breaking their knuckles on a wall, cutting, excess use of alcohol and/or drugs, difficulty with trust and intimacy. You folks really should look more deeply at your ?successes?. You might be surprised at what you find.

[RobertBruce]

Truth, first youre assuming you know who we are. Second youre assuming you are familiar with all of our backrounds. I can assure I recieved no testing before or during my placement at HLA.