Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform > Public Sector Gulags

A Doctor's Fight: More Forced

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Anonymous:

--- Quote ---On 2006-02-02 15:19:00, Eudora wrote:

"Well, this is not really a new dilema at all. Are you familiar w/ Blackstone's ratio?

--- End quote ---


I did not know the name of it, thank you,
I do learn alot from you.

Yes, that is what I was referring to.

There is no answer though, correct, it is whatever
the legislative branch decides is the law.

That is the same process, I believe, that is happening with this dilem

Antigen:
Well, I don't see it as a huge dilemma. Unless and until a jury convicts someone or they, themselves, plead guilty, they don't forfeit their rights.

Hell, my dad would almost surely have qualified for some kind of forced treatment if they did that sort of thing years ago. He had crazy bumper stickers and foil on all the windows of his house. He used to rage and scream and throw things, but not at people. He was also an avid gun collector and vocal proponant of 2nd amendment rights. Oh, and did I mention he was a postman? It's true, I am the Postman's kid! Certainly, he would have been voted most likely to go postal.

But he never did. You just can't tell what someone is going to do in the future. Freedom means you have a right to be and to stay crazy as a bed bug, so long as you don't infringe on the rights of others. That's what the old dude fought for.



Redemption: Deliverance of sinners from the penalty of their sins through the murder of their deity against whom they sinned.
--Ambrose Bierce
--- End quote ---

AtomicAnt:
Even if one were to agree (and I don't) that there should be forced treatment for those who have not broken any laws, the difficulty is in where to draw the lines.

I do not have enough faith in either psychiatry or politics to trust any governing body to draw the correct lines. This is just a ripe opening for abuse against the poor, minorities, etc.

Also, we are finding out the hard way that some of these miracle medications do indeed cause more harm than good, so to force people to take something when the results of taking it are not fully understood is akin to shooting off a gun blindfolded.

Once again, cliches are used to form public policy. One sympathetic victim and we throw logic and science out the window and make sweeping policy decisions that are not well conceived. It's the same logic that brought us the 'three strikes' policies that filled prisons and failed to reduce crime.

Anonymous:

--- Quote ---On 2006-02-02 20:49:00, AtomicAnt wrote:

"Even if one were to agree (and I don't) that there should be forced treatment for those who have not broken any laws, the difficulty is in where to draw the lines.



--- End quote ---


Postal killer acted irrational years before attack
6th person from mail facility dies; former neighbor confirmed as 7th victim

Long before former postal employee Jennifer Sanmarco went on a suicidal rampage inside a mail processing plant in Santa Barbara, killing six people there and a seventh elsewhere, acquaintances and others took note of her odd behavior, a spiral of bizarre acts that began at least two years ago.

A former plant worker said the attacker had made racist comments in the past, and at least six of the victims were minorities, but investigators have refused to discuss a motive in the slayings.

But interviews with officials and others in New Mexico, Sanmarco's home state, to which she returned in 2004 after she lost her job at the mail facility, paint a picture of an unpredictable woman.
Story continues below ? advertisement

?We weren?t sure what she was going to do next,? said Terri Gallegos, deputy clerk for the city of Milan, N.M., where Sanmarco applied for a business license in 2004 for a publication called ?The Racist Press? that she said she planned to launch. Another time she said she wanted to register a cat food business, Gallegos told the Associated Press.

Bizarre behavior
During one meeting, Gallegos said, Sanmarco carried on a conversation with herself ?like she was arguing with someone, but there was no one there.?

?It was obvious that she could have some mental problems,? Gallegos told MSNBC.com. ?It was in 2005 when we dealt with her more frequently. She would come in and just ask questions about area projects. Sometimes we weren?t sure what she was referring to. A lot of times she would storm in, blurt out something and walk out.?

?She would do things that people would witness, like parking on the side of the road and praying,? Gallegos told MSNBC.com. ?We?ve heard of her going through local Dumpsters. To this day we don?t know where she came from. She had no history on her, no family or friends, she was always by herself.?

In June, police in nearby Grants, N.M., talked to her after someone at a gas station called to complain of nudity, police Chief Marty Vigil said. Sanmarco was dressed when officers arrived.

Sanmarco's behavior turned violent on Monday night, when she returned to her old workplace, the sprawling Processing and Distribution Center in Santa Barbara, Calif. She drove through the gate behind another car and gained entry to the building by taking an employee?s identification badge at gunpoint.

That worker was not hurt, but Sanmarco fatally shot six postal employees before committing suicide in what is believed to be the deadliest workplace shooting by a woman.

?According to witnesses from the scene, she had a 9 mm pistol and reloaded at least once during her rampage,? Santa Barbara County Sheriff James Anderson said Tuesday.

Killer of former neighbor
Beverly Graham, 54, was found Tuesday, dead of a gunshot wound to the head, at a Santa Barbara condominium complex where Sanmarco lived up until a few years ago.

A neighbor of Graham?s reported hearing a gunshot Monday evening, before Sanmarco went to the mail-processing center.

?Evidence and circumstances of both crimes show distinct correlations between the two,? said Jeff Klapakis of the Santa Barbara County Sheriff?s Department, on Wednesday.

Workplace shootings almost always by men

Racial component to shootings?
Authorities said it was unclear whether Sanmarco targeted specific employees at the postal center, but U.S. Postal Inspector Randy DeGasperin said ?chances are? she knew the people she was shooting.

Former plant worker Jeff Tabala recalled that Sanmarco seemed particularly hostile to Asians while working for the Postal Service.

He said all of the dead at the facility were minorities: Three were black, one was Chinese-American, one was Hispanic and one was Filipino.

In 2003, Tabala said, he saw sheriff?s deputies pull Sanmarco out from under a mail-sorting machine and wheel her away in handcuffs on a mail cart after a disturbance.

She returned several months later, but ?people started coming to me and saying, ?She?s acting erratically,?? Tabala said. ?She was screaming. She was saying a lot of racist comments. It was pretty ugly.?

Sanmarco was escorted out of the building by management and never returned, Tabala said. ?She seemed to be having conversations and there wasn?t anyone around her. She?d be just jabbering away.? he said.

Beverly Graham had also noticed unusual behavior, her brother Les Graham Jr. told The Associated Press. He said his sister had complained about a woman who ?used to come out and rant and rave in front of her building.?
The Associated Press and MSNBC.com's Michael E. Ross contributed to this report.

Anonymous:
All your comments are valid, important,
and "the postman's kid" funny.

I just re-read the article and I believe
the reason for the push for involuntary
treatment reform is because it was used
so little that the wish of the politician's
was to make the laws more usable.

So, in a way, the US did have a freedome until
you commit a crime, even though an illness
may be influencing thy actions, policy.

Some may be perfectly happy such as yourself
with that.

A mental person, their loved one's, and
mental health advocates probably have the
opinion that if treated they could stay
in society and not be jailed or hospitalized
or worse yet, condemned to Assisted Communtity
Treatment until such time they are removed from
the program - all in order to maintain freedom.

There belief is a mental person's life is valuable and should be helped to recover to the highest degree possible.

Other mental people would be pissed to take
medications, rejecting all help and have the
support of many advocates that state no involuntary treatment anytime, for anyreason
period. Crimes are unrelated.

Everyone, including the mental person, wants
to have a reasonable chance at not being a
victim of a crime.

Hmmm, now that I have said all that, it is too
bad you are not supreme ruler in the country you live in, if you where, you could make the laws.

Hence the political system we have ...

I guess this post turned out to be babble, but
let me try to recover here.

There are all types of opinions on this situation.
One law will not please everyone.

I have no answer to the dilema that I think is complicated, others see no dilema at all.

Blah, sorry I can't wrap this thought up to a coherent conclusion.

Over and out, for now.

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