Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform > Vision Quest
VisionQuest Deaths
Anonymous:
I also worked for the VisionQuest Hat Corps in Pennsylvania. CCY. And please don't misunderstand me as condoning or excusing the deaths that have occured. I was shocked to see how many kids have died there. It's tragic. However, the kids that died in the ocean was definitely from an accident resulting from the weather. And you have to remember that the kids placed at these things are not angels. They are highly manipulative and many times violent. When you read that a kid said he needed to stop doing something or have a drink, it seems like a no brainer. The kid says he needs to stop, and so he should be allowed to stop. But there are often only 3, 2, or 1 staff working with upwards of 20 kids. Kids say they need to stop doing things all the time, so it's very hard as a staff member to gauge when somebody is telling the truth and when somebody is just trying to get out of doing something. As far as bad restraints go, yes there are staff who go too far, but a lot of these kids aren't the small helpless kids you think of. When I worked there, there was one kid who jumped a drill instructor, choked him out and attempted to steal his car. Again, I'm not trying to excuse anything, but the issue is not black and white.
Anonymous:
And what are your credentials and experience working with alleged 'juvenile delinquents'?
The staff didn't check the weather report that day, before taking these 'violent' kids out?
Anonymous:
SeaQuest took place on a boat in the middle of the ocean, much like college Semesters at Sea. For the most part, they're in the ocean; it's not a matter of going out for a couple hours a day. And it's ludicrous to think that staff would willingly and with premeditation, go out on the ocean when a storm was coming.
I don't believe I ever used the term "juvenile delinquents." My credentials are that I have worked with at-risk and adjudicated youth for five years, and I have a master's degree. I have no wish to get into an arguement with you about the greatness of VisionQuest nor the infallibility of its staff. It was my intention only to add another perspective to what appears to be an intelligent discussion.
I care very much about the kids I have worked with and have sought always to do nothing more than get them home with the tools to stay there. I consider every former kid I have worked with that is now in jail or prison a personal loss. I am not some heartless bully on a power trip who looks down on kids in placement. I have always tried to show them respect and dignity and based on the respect that I generally earn from them, I would say I am pretty successful with that. I resent the implication that I don't care about them or look down upon them in any way. Many of the kids I've worked with were some of the most intelligent and all around greatest people I've ever met. But, don't get it twisted, they can still be extremely manipulative, volatile, and yes, violent. My only point is that the issue is not as black and white as it may appear.
I look forward to continuing in an intelligent discussion about the issue and hope that there will be no further personal attacks.
AtomicAnt:
--- Quote ---On 2006-04-30 17:24:00, tbuster1269 wrote:
"I really do not know if I should say this, but I worked for visionquest about 10 years ago. I was a drill instructor at their boot & hat camp in Pennsylvania. I remember a boy that died there in March or April 1997. We were told the boy had a malfunctioning heart and there was no way it could be detected. It really hit the personnel and the kids that were there pretty hard. I eventually left because of it. I was there to help these kids, not hurt them. I am a former Marine and remember the camp being set up just like Marine boot Camp. I can honestly say that I never took part or saw any unnecessary physical contact with the kids. Everytime there was a physical altercation, it was because one of the kids would put there hands on a staff member or would blatantly refuse to follow orders. Of all the staff members I met, whose names I cannot remember, none of them were there to hurt the kids. They were interested in the kids future and fixing whatever was wrong with them. The reason I even am on this site is because I have a friend who has a completely, utterly out of control child that needs to be given some direction. I was totally unaware of these deaths. Is the place still open? Does anybody know"
--- End quote ---
The part about a 'physical altercation' for 'blatently refusing to follow orders' is a red flag here. How physical would they get; presssure point pain infliction, takedowns, restraints? I don't think I'd like anyone getting physical with my kids just because they refuse to do something they were ordered to do.
I don't like the idea of boot camps for teens at all. There is not much research, but most of what there is states boot camps have a higher recidivsm rate than detention centers or other alternatives and that boot camps can often do more emotional harm than good to already vulnerable and disturbed teenagers.
Teens are just not old enough or mature enough to 'get' the lessons that boot camp tries to instill and come away with the belief that the DIs are just being mean to the kids for the sake of being mean and forcing them to obey. They come out of these programs angry.
Anonymous:
While that was not my post, I think I can answer some of your questions. Yes, a physical altercation, in other words a fight between kids, is a reason why someone might be restrained. The state of Pennsylvania considers it a form of abuse to allow kids to fight in placement. Failure to follow instruction is not a justification for a restraint. However, depending upon what the order was, it can be justification for an escort. This can lead to an aggressive response from a trooper, which is justification for a restraint (as far as policy and the law goes, I'm not making a value judgement on that personally). As far as whether teens are mature enough for boot camp and their reaction to it, I have to respectfully disagree with you. I was 17 when I went through boot camp (in the Army). I was able to succeed as are most kids who go through placement boot camps. Whether it's for the military or placement, boot camp is a process, depending on the quality of their DI's (and this is definitely problematic) kids come away with all the benefits and knowledge that boot camp is meant to instill. When I worked in a non boot camp facility, I had many kids that had been through boot camp and they viewed it much the same as I viewed my Army boot camp experience, they were happy as hell to leave, but looked back on it with a fondness. Boot camps do have a high recidivism rate, although I would be very suprised if it was higher than detention centers, which operate very much like jails with almost no treatment component and are generally used only to house youth for short periods of time--in other words they are used for weekend sanctions or as holding areas during court, or after court until the youth is given a permanent placement--the problem with boot camps as far as recidivism goes, as is the case with all placements, is that it provides a structural framework within which a youth can experience success, and yes feel safe.
Upon completion, they are sent home with no further support, and so the support system under which they experienced the change is gone, and they're right back in the same environment that created their problems in the first place. There has got to be a greater emphasis on in-community supports. I'm not talking about punitive things but after-school rec and arts programs, things like that. Providing kids with a continued environment in their communities where they can succeed, feel cared about, and mentored is the ONLY way to instill lasting change and stop the cycle.
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