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GregFL:
how about people are interested in the truth, and the christian myths do not comport with reality?
And as far as a conspiracy against christmas...
what a crock!
Christians have been force feeding their myths to other people under the threat of death, since around 30 BC or so. Not so much has changed. But when we don't want our government to favor your religion over our collective beliefs (or lack thereof) you guys cry foul and claim this is a "christian nation". It is not.
Further, The christmas holiday is not even founded in christianity but in the winter solstice. You guys stole it from the pagans in order to assimilate them, and now 2000 years later you want to whine that everyone doesn't exclusively recognize this time of the year as yours. Just how ridiculous can we get?
Christmas is the season we take a break and celebrate however we want, and when retail stores want to include everyone you guys want to whine that you are being discriminated against.
AtomicAnt:
--- Quote ---Question: Why do so many think this way, and feel so strongly about it, when a few decades ago, very few had such thoughts and feeling about Christians? What has changed?
So, as to the premise of the article - Is there an effort taking place in the universities, and the major media groups, and among liberal churchmen, to denigrate and undermine Christianity? Are these groups hostile to the Christian faith? Is there an effort to capture the minds of the children before their parents can instill this Christian yoke of oppression?
I think so. I think it is very clearly so.
And so, the question then is, how and why?
The article deals with How.
--- End quote ---
I don't think so. I don't think it was different a few decades ago. In the 1960s and 1970s the country was far more liberal than it is now and as Antigen pointed out, Clinton was not really a liberal. I've made the statement to friends that Clinton was where the Republicans were in the 1970s and that the whole country has shifted profoundly right. The Reagan years were the Conservative backlash to the sexual revolution, or so I thought and hoped at the time. We never recovered and much of the gains in tolerance and freedom of the 1960s and 1970s has been lost.
I don't think Universities, media, and liberals are attempting to undermine Christianity at all, unless you are referring specifically to fundamentalist Christianity. This is a small group of people that believe the Bible literally. They are organized and have money and currently wield far more power than their numbers should in a democracy. People like me are worried not about the New World Order that will ban Christianity, but the theocracy that seems to be gaining strength in this country. These fundamentalists are intolerant. The reason Universities are against them is simple, the fundamentalists are opposed to any rational or scientific ideas that contradict their Biblical world view. Sorry, but the world is 4 billion years old, not 5000.
I once told my UU Minister that when I mentioned to my friends I was a UU they would say, "Oh yeah, the Church where you can believe anything you want." He countered, "No, it is the fundamentalists that believe anything they want, despite logic, reason, history, and science. As Unitarians, we have to justify what we believe in." Please visit http://www.uua.org/aboutuua/principles.html. Note the goal of world community. It seems I am the enemy.
I was raised in the 'Appalachia' that Antigen speaks of. Actually, I grew up about halfway between Pittsburgh and Erie. Christianity is big there in rural Western PA. I was an atheist beginning at age nine. The way I was treated probably explains why I am so against the mind control programs Fornits survivors speak out against. I know what oppression of expression feels like, trust me. You can imagine how well I was received as an atheist/anarchist teenager who refused to pray or pledge the flag. Yes, I was punished for these things - physically and harshly. So I don't buy the oppressed Christian stuff very easily.
The anti-Christian media is a myth. The media is not liberal. This is a myth. The media is quantitatively conservative. This has been measured and demonstrated time and again. I suggest you visit http://www.fair.org. Conservative political views receive far more air time and words spoken than so-called liberals do.
Now for the article. I think the author a hack because she proposes that consensus building and Hegelian Dialect are designed to undermine Christianity. My contention is that consensus building and Hegelian Dialect are nothing more than tools to reach rational, logical conclusions about any given topic, and that fundamentalist Christianity which is based on myth simply cannot stand up to that test. A literal interpretation of the Bible is intellectually indefensible.
You will note that among Christian countries, only the USA has a debate between evolution and creationism. Other Christian Countries and indeed mainstream Christians in the USA believe the Bible to be allegory and there is no conflict or debate here. In Europe, there is no big public battle between evolution and creationism.
As an atheist/anarchist, I rejected the concepts of 'Legitimate Authority' and even Cartesian Duality long ago. Like Exit Plan, I state that no person or group of people have a 'legitimate right' to tell another person or group what to do - period. That said, I am a human animal and humans are social animals. It also seems that human societies tend to be hierarchical. So, I live in the real world and pick my battles carefully. But my will is my own and I (like you) think because of my world view, I would be a very difficult subject for a program to brainwash for any length of time. I hold my truths to be as absolute as you hold yours. I doubt anyone could change them.
I think my views are why I despise these teen programs. I cringe at parents who want their kids to 'respect rules and authority.' To me, a teen with ODD is a saint. ADHD is nothing more than society narrowing what it considers acceptable behavior of what are really normal boys (84% of ADHD diagnosis are boys), and reflect an anti-boy bias in elementary schools. Young boys are not wired to sit still at desks for hours on end.
Antigen:
--- Quote ---On 2006-01-08 10:14:00, BuzzKill wrote:
Question: Why do so many think this way, and feel so strongly about it, when a few decades ago, very few had such thoughts and feeling about Christians? What has changed?
--- End quote ---
Well, compare Dubya to Jimmuh. There's your aswer.
All of these comforting and reasonable things were taught by the ministers in their pulpits -- by teachers in Sunday schools and by parents at home. The children were victims. They were assaulted in the cradle -- in their mother's arms. Then, the schoolmaster carried on the war against their natural sense, and all the books they read were filled with the same impossible truths. The poor children were helpless. The atmosphere they breathed was filled with lies -- lies that mingled with their blood.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer
--- End quote ---
Antigen:
--- Quote ---On 2006-01-08 10:14:00, BuzzKill wrote:
I felt it worth while to post it here, b/c it also happens to be how the Programs are able to so quickly get the parents to surrender their personal beliefs and individuality, and embrace the group - the program - as their new self. Truly, many of them they are Program Parents before they are anything else. Many of them abandon major tenants of their faith to become better program-parents. My hope in posting the article was to maybe reach a few of them; and maybe awaken them to their true condition. Maybe warn others what to watch for. I really didn't want another faith debate - but I realize the overall content makes it unavoidable."
--- End quote ---
Karen, did you skip my post or did I not explain it well enough. What saved me from the brainwashing was a combination of what I learned from that old tough neck athiest who raised me and the very devout Christians who taught me.
Seriously, the one without the other would not have done it for me. Dad told me about the old tyme Bible thumpers who used to come through, leaving a trail of pregnant teenagers behind them. He usally was refering to Art Barker, Seed founder, president and ultimate cult leader. But he also gave four square, sincere support and praise to those among those very devout Christian teachers and ministers who won his respect.
It's not the Chrstianity. Ghandi was a great spiritual and political leader. Christians in this day and place would do well to take good council from him, even though he wasn't a Christian. He took council from our very own American son, Thoreau. He said "My profession is to be always on the alert to find God in nature, to know his lurking-places, to attend all the oratorios, the operas, in nature ... The love of Nature and the fullest perception of the revelation which she is to man is not compatible with the belief in the peculiar revelation of the Bible."
If there's a conspiracy to destroy Christianity, it's coming from within Christianity. They're your dogs, you call em off.
for nothing can keep it right but their own vigilant and distrustful superintendence.
--Thomas Jefferson
--- End quote ---
_________________
Drug war POW
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82
BuzzKill:
Hi Ginger - I think I understood what you were saying.
I was just trying to explain my thinking when posting the article. I suspect it is I not explaining myself very well.
As for calling off the dogs - I don't think the dogs are interested in obedience to any master but their own ambition.
And not just "our" dogs - but the whole dam pack.
///Well, compare Dubya to Jimmuh. There's your aswer.///
I don't think that's it. I think it is considerably more complicated than the difference in the two men. I honestly do believe it is the result of decades of thought reform in academia, and the media, that has made the "fundamentalist" or "Evangelical" something to be despised.
Perhaps I see it differently simply because I have been on the receiving end of numerous rants from those who feel they are doing me a favor; attempting to free me from this evil influence. I was amazed at the reaction of people after that last election; and I can't help but think there is a lot more behind it than just the man who won. The anxiety and outrage didn't seem to be so much that Bush won, as that the horrid "Fundies" had.
I base my POV on more than this - but this is what I personally experienced.
I think you are correct Atomic Ant, that it is quite alright to be "Christian", as long as you aren't a Christian who believes the Bible.
I read an account not long ago, of a professor who wrote an email to a college about his discriminating against students who professed any "Fundi" leanings. He explained how he didn't think such a one as that deserved to have a degree. He wanted to make sure they were never in a position to teach. And he felt perfectly comfortable explaining this. It wasn't some secrete personal bias. It was unwritten policy of his department. These students were not to be allowed to succeed.
The feeling against the "Fundies" in the universities is blatant and extreme.
I am arguing that this is something new. This was not always the case. The change has occurred in my own life time. I think there is a reason why, and I think the article touches on How. I also feel it is How the Programs change the thinking of the parents - how they get them to so readily abandon their personal beliefs and accept the programming. Thats why I posted the artical.
With regard to Hegelian Dialect - frankly, I know next to nothing about it, so I can't very well argue with your POV. I suspect there are those who would tho.
With regard to media bias - of corse there is media bias - and it swings both ways.
I think with the media, what has changed is a willingness to depict Christianity and Christians as ignorant, mindless buffoons, whose POV is not worth considering. They are marginalized and dismissed in a way un-heard of a few decades ago.
I agree with you about the schooling tho. I tend to agree with Ginger's POV on Public schooling.
As for defiance - yes it can be a very valuable trait when one is faced with an injustice - but to defy authority 'just because' - that is just mindless destruction of one own prosperity.
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