Tough Love- nonsense

[Paul St. John]

Tough love is basically the idea that help must hurt.. that it needs to be painful to be helped.

Picture this, you are on a boat, and you see a person drowning.. what do you do?  

Perhaps you will throw them a life preserver.

you then pull them up onto the boat.

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!

You wanted to help somebody and you did!

It worked...

So where the fuck was all the tough love?

You didn t pull them on the boat, kick them in the face, throw thwm back in again, and then help them out, but somehow it still worked.  You successfully helped them with absolutly no "tough love".

This is why it is so hilarious to hear a so called proffessional say that "tough love" is the only way to really help somebody.

In my opinion, it is a way of punishing somebody.  They don t mention it but these centers are not just therapy centers, they are punishment/therapy centers, with most of the punisment aspect outweighing the therapy aspect.

Why waiste the precious time of one's life?
If there is a solution, why not go directly there?

Paul St. John

[odie]

Maybe something has changed at Daytop that I'm not aware about. When I was there there was no " tough love". It was called responsible love.I've looked at your postings for awhile now and all I can say is get over it and move on. Life is worth much more than holding on to resentments.

Hands that help are far better then lips that pray.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer

[Troll Control]

I'm not sure of when or how you were affiliated with Daytop, but since the 1970's they have espoused the tough love philosophy.  The only problem is that they provided the tough, but not the love.

In addition, the staff were program grads with no credentials other than that they were (or are) drug addicts and went thru Daytop.  There were many staff who were active addicts and alcoholics, including Directors who were drunk and/or high on the job.  When they get caught violating policy, they start up the merry-go-round and simply reassign the offenders to new posts at new sites.

Basically, Daytop is a dump that treats its clients like dirt and employs a confrontational "therapy" program that clearly does not work.  Internal Daytop statistics (up to 1996) show an 80% recidivism rate, that is 80% of people who finish the program go right back to getting high.

If you need help, seek it elsewhere with competent therapists, not where your primary care staff are active addicts and drunks practicing ineffective confrontational so-called "therapy."

[Paul St. John]

On 2006-01-10 05:48:00, odie wrote:

"I've looked at your postings for awhile now and all I can say is get over it and move on. Life is worth much more than holding on to resentments.

Hands that help are far better then lips that pray.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer

"

In my veiw of an ideal world, places such as Daytop would not exist. This is more the reason for my postings then resentments.

I think of the jews for example.  They have acted in accordance with what you have recomended, and they have done it to such an extent, as I have seen in my life experience that all I can do is bow my hat to them, and be amazed and inspired by them.  I think they have done the right thing thing, as a whole, and that letting go, and moving on is of great virtue.

But concentration camps are gone.  It is no longer going on.  These rehabs are not.  They still exist, and I consider an atrocity that these places still exist in a society which has acheived as enlightened a level of existence, and ideaology as we have overall.

I'm not sure what if anything has come from my postings, or even entirely, unfalteringly sure what I would like to come from them, or how much I even care to invest in exposing or acting against these places.  I some times think that I should just move on altogether..

But something that I always think about in my head is the idea, that all heros and great people, those who I've always looked up to...
fight battles today, and pave ways today, in order that future generations need not fight them.

We have been there.. in these rehabs.. I have been there, and I know that they are wrong.

How can I leave to those who come after me, these places, still in place, and functioning, and still hold my head  tall?

How can I feel right?

Paul St. John

Nobody deserves it.. I do fine with my resentments.  I held my own in that place, but not all can or well.

[Antigen]

Well, I think you just come to terms w/ your itty, bitty little role in all of it. You just speak your peace and do whatever you can in whatever becomes the normal course of your life to tip the ball in a good direction whenever it comes your way.

You may not get a lot of accolades and tangible evidence of your good (or bad) deeds that way. But you get to live well, which is the best revenge. And, if you have faith in the basic fairness and balance of the universe--faith of the variety which is fed and strengthened by honest doubt--you don't assume your well intended actions or words will work for good. You wait and see what happens.

It takes a thousand voices to tell just one story. Right now, James Frey is just about my favorite media hoaxter. Whatever his intention (and who can know the mind of another) his li'll stunt is shedding some much needed light on the frauds and hucksters in this industry or social movement or witch hunt or whatever the hell we're in the middle of here.

They know that it is human nature to take up causes whereby a man may oppress his neighbor, no matter how unjustly. ... Hence they have had no trouble in finding men who would preach the damnability and heresy of the new doctrine from the very pulpit.
--Galileo Galilei, Italian astronomer

[Paul St. John]

On 2006-01-10 09:35:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I'm not sure of when or how you were affiliated with Daytop, but since the 1970's they have espoused the tough love philosophy.  The only problem is that they provided the tough, but not the love.



In addition, the staff were program grads with no credentials other than that they were (or are) drug addicts and went thru Daytop.  There were many staff who were active addicts and alcoholics, including Directors who were drunk and/or high on the job.  When they get caught violating policy, they start up the merry-go-round and simply reassign the offenders to new posts at new sites.



Basically, Daytop is a dump that treats its clients like dirt and employs a confrontational "therapy" program that clearly does not work.  Internal Daytop statistics (up to 1996) show an 80% recidivism rate, that is 80% of people who finish the program go right back to getting high.



If you need help, seek it elsewhere with competent therapists, not where your primary care staff are active addicts and drunks practicing ineffective confrontational so-called "therapy."  



"

Anonymous...

very impressive post.. I was not aware of the whole merry-go-round thing.

Paul

[odie]

Actually thats a pretty good statistic that 80% relapse which means 20% succeed, much higher than the 2% national average. As far as non credentialed staff you're probably referring to non college educated staff since all counselor's need to be licensed today. I'll admit it wasn't always like that, but times change. I'm not so sure that that any amount of education can be pitted against life experience but when you combine the two, now you have a good counselor.

It takes a village idiot to believe that a family needs instruction from the government to raise a child.
-- Anonymous homeschooler

[Paul St. John]

On 2006-01-17 12:29:00, odie wrote:

"Actually thats a pretty good statistic that 80% relapse which means 20% succeed, much higher than the 2% national average.

Daytop, and the Monsignor claim an 80% success rating.  In my dealing with counselors, they attempt to appear to the parents of clients as all knowing experts.  They compare Daytop philosophy to an exact science.  They don't say, " Yeah, this works about two out of ten times, and the odds arre that you are doing this for nothing.  ( I don t think that they would get many clients, if they were upfront like that.  Most would probably just ratyher go it alone)

Also, am I correct in thinking that this national average really just compares Daytop to other similar programs, with different names?

And fundamentally, what it comes down to, is that while it may work for 20% of people, that statistic does not guage at what price sobriety was achieved.

I quit drugs on my own because I wanted to, and so did many others I know, but we didn t have to destroy our own identities first.  I am not a part of the national average though, I would guess.


I can testify to this from experience: Almost everyone I had asked both while in Daytop, and even now years later, has told me that they became far more a drug addict AFTER leaving the program then they ever would have had they stayed.
I remember while I was there that mild pot smokers would leave the program, and return later with full-blown drug problems.  And still today, I hear from people that they became drug addicts after leaving.

Also, you hear from some that while they may have been able to maintain sobriety after leaving Daytop, the world was scary to them after leaving, they no longer fit in with their peers, and/or their they are not as close with their family.




 
[/quote]

[Troll Control]

Self treatment with no program or counseling is effective 15% of the time.  Daytop has statistics stating "20%" but they are skewed.  Not to mention that they publicly claim an 80% success rate.  It's bologna.  Most of their staff are active users themselves.

[odie]

Just wondering if anybody can show me the documentation of this so called 80% success rate. I know while I was there they had research but I believe that the 80% rate was the percentage of people that continued to stay clean from a group that had been clean 5 years. As far as mild pot smokers leaving and getting hooked on heavier drugs and returning there, well they had no reason to be there in the first place. Marijuana is a gateway drug for some and it stands to reason regardless if they went to Daytop or any other program they would eventually get hooked on something worse if they continue to use. What needs to be remebered here that Daytop and most programs like it is a last resort for people that nothing else has worked for.If people are being sent there that don't meet the criteria then yes, it is totally wrong. They should meet ASAM Level III.5 to be accepted there. If not well I'd suggest maybe someone talk to their funding sources and have them investigate it.

Power concedes nothing without a demand. The limit of oppression is determined by the extent of the endurance of the oppressed.
--Frederick Douglas

[Paul St. John]

Odie, I only tell ya what I experienced.  There were plenty of mild pot smokers, including someone who had only smoked once.

We were always told that we all belonged there reguardless of what drugs we did or did not do.  I'm telling ya.. They would say it in like this holy way.  The one kid had only smoked once, and failed a drug test that his father had made him take since he started high school.  They were all about money.

If I remember correctly, there were even people who did not do drugs at all there, but who went there to escape ghoing to jail for some crime or another. ( Daytop gets a lot of money from the government for each kid they take on.  More then half of the money Daytop takes in comes from government sources. ( yes I can get documentation on that)

I remember a counselor was saying that EVERYBODY belonged in Daytop.  You can't make this shit up.. he seemed to think that we were the lucky ones for ending up there, and no longer hhaving to be in the " real world".  I(f that doesn't scream, ' CULT ', I don't know what does.

Paul St. John

[odie]

No doubt there were some wacked out counselors and directors when I was working for Daytop. And yes it is one big money machine. Paul, I'm not against what you're saying, I agree with some of it but times change. When I was there in the 90's it was totally different from the early days of the signs, shaved heads, drinking priviledges, etc., and yes it has a ways to go and my hope is that with the new licensing regulations for the staff, they will purge all the old timers and it will get lots better.

For the community to have 10% to 25% of its men unable to vote or unable to access credit or other privileges of citizenship for the rest of their lives in some states creates a permanently diminished
group within society.
http://www.urban.org/authors/travis.html' target='_new'>Jeremy Travis, Urban Institute

[Troll Control]

In the LATE 90's kids were running around with shaved heads and toilet seats around their necks.  They wore signs like "I am a dopefiend.  Don't believe anything I say.  Confront me." around their necks.  Most of the staff were active addicts and or alcoholics with no education whatsoever, just a Daytop "diploma."

It was and is pretty much exactly how PSJ describes.

Odie's comments aren't quite accurate.

[Anonymous]

Take the bag off your head and prove what you say. I was there and that shit stopped in the lat 80's.

[Anonymous]

Do anybody know Sharon Chapman at the Far Rockaway facility?  She's off the hook.