Another WWASP death

[TheWho]

On 2005-12-20 17:17:00, YuckFou wrote:

"Even one murder is too many. These places need to be shut down. This is unbelievable."

I agree that one death is too many, but are the schools putting our children at more risk than our public school system? or less?

For example during the period July 1, 1999 to June 30,2000 there were 2,124 Homicides and 1,922 Suicides of youth ages 5-19 in the United States.

How does this stack up to program deaths?

Another Statistic:"In 1999?2000, an estimated 1.5 million violent incidents occurred in public elementary and secondary schools. Seventy-one percent of public schools experienced one or more violent incidents and 36 percent of schools reported one or more such incidents to the police.

Are programs responsible for a higher percentage and therefore pose a higher risk?  Are our kids safer in Public Schools?

[Anonymous]

How many of those kids were murdered by their teachers? Or school employees?  :question:  :question:  :question:

What would happen if a teacher sat on a student until they were dead? You think they would investigate or something... ? What do they do when this happens at programs?  :question:  :question:  :question:

Seriously... get real, these are murders and anyone can come up with any statistics to prove any point... you impress no one with your off-topic diversions.

[Anonymous]

You're talking nationwide statistics, that is apples and oranges.  We have about 300 million people in the U.S., so saying that fewer than 2,000 teens killed themselves isn't saying much.  Keep compiling the names, guys.  

I also thought that maybe we could compile lists of who's been arrested, who's been pregnant before marriage and at what age (not that I pass judgment at all, but parents do), and any other statistics that would make parebts reconsider WWASPs effectiveness.

[TheWho]

Real quick to pass judgement !!  Just asking a question.

2,000 teens killed themselves isn't saying much.......Keep compiling the names, guys

I think someone said it earlier that one death is too many and I agree.

How many of those kids were murdered by their teachers? Or school employees?
What would happen if a teacher sat on a student until they were dead? You think they would investigate or something... ? What do they do when this happens at programs

Now thats what I am talking about!!!  We show that kids are more at risk than your average public school parents would think twice about sending their kids there.  How many kids are killed by their teachers in public schools, private schools charter schools etc. and compare it to programs....this is important stuff and should be looked at.
How many gym teachers force kids to run around the track and go home and die of heat exhaustion, how many program counselors are improperly trained to restrain someone etc.
Put this out there for the parents to see.... instead of just yelling, and making lists and calling people names and stuff like that, lets put some teeth into it!!!

[Anonymous]

Spin... spin... spin. You program apologists LOVE to point people down a path leading to nowhere (these statistics don't exist, and nobody has anyway of compiling them other than the program themselves). This thread is about PROGRAMS not gym teachers. Go find how many kids have been killed after being restrained by their teachers if you want to know the difference between programs and school. Misdirection won't work WWASP apologist, sorry.  :wave: Now... back to the list of lives ended/ruined by programs.

[Anonymous]

Are programs responsible for a higher percentage and therefore pose a higher risk? Are our kids safer in Public Schools?

OF COURSE. Schools allow you to leave. Schools have phones. Schools teach you things. Schools don't brainwash you. Schools have staff with qualifications, education and training. Schools have trained administration staff. Schools job is not to make as much money off you as possible. School is regulated. School is actually beneficial.

Are our kids safer in Public schools?

The fact you ask this question shows you are completely unfamiliar with WWASP programs. OF COURSE THEY ARE.

[TheWho]

On 2005-12-20 20:50:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Spin... spin... spin. You program apologists LOVE to point people down a path leading to nowhere (these statistics don't exist, and nobody has anyway of compiling them other than the program themselves). This thread is about PROGRAMS not gym teachers. Go find how many kids have been killed after being restrained by their teachers if you want to know the difference between programs and school. Misdirection won't work WWASP apologist, sorry.  :wave: Now... back to the list of lives ended/ruined by programs."

Misdirecting where?  Why doesnt anyone want to go down that path?  What is so wrong with it?  Why not compare?  You can write lists if you like and get more angry as they get longer, but to what end?  We have zero argument against any school unless we prove they are putting our children at greater risk then an established standard.  You are at the same place you were last year and the list gets longer.  Is this something you enjoy?  Why not do something constuctive?

Unless we all sit back in our chairs and wait for the next person to die, shake our heads and say death to the programs you acuse them of spin or programmies, trolls etc.

But maybe I will try it for awhile. lets look at that list alphabetically and then after that by region, kick back until we can add another one.

If someone trys to make us get out of our chairs and make a difference, I will accuse them of trolling or program spin and we will reprint the list and say "Shut all the schools down" !!!
Then I will be really pissed because no one will listen to me, the schools are still open.

Then a year will go by and someone will suggest to me why dont you actually show these parents that these programs are hurting their kids?  

And I will shout "Spin...Spin you are trying to misdirect my anger, show me the list again so I can get refocused, friggin trolls are all alike, always trying to lead me down a path, I like it here damit

[SurpassingTheFlow]

Yes... there are more acts of violence in public schools, BUT, there are also MANY times more kids in public schools, AND, public education is a fact of life: hopefully programs will not remain part of the US. I can think of many reasons, especially given my firsthand experience, why WWASP and other similar "programs" should either be vastly improved or shut down altogether. NO REASONABLE AND GOOD-WILLED PARENT should send their kid to a WWASP or other similar "program" under any circumstance, given that there are many other adequate options. I know this becuase I have suffiently researched non-WWASP and other non-similar "programs" and treatment options that are available in practically any city or town in the USA.

Peace... ::dove::

[TheWho]

Yes... there are more acts of violence in public schools, BUT, there are also MANY times more kids in public schools

Exactly, thats why I am suggesting comparing them via percentage.  This way you can elliminate the difference in populations and compare apple to apples

[Anonymous]

WWASP and public school don't compare. It's not comparing apples and apples, it's more like comparing apples and a cult. Because WWASP is a cult, an abusive cult. No comparison, sorry. Take your misdirection elsewhere.  :wave:

[TheWho]

On 2005-12-21 07:53:00, Anonymous wrote:

"WWASP and public school don't compare. It's not comparing apples and apples, it's more like comparing apples and a cult. Because WWASP is a cult, an abusive cult. No comparison, sorry. Take your misdirection elsewhere.  :wave: "

Yes they do, if you compare number of deaths as a percentage of the whole than you can compare any populations to each other, cults, theraputic schools, high schools, grammer schools collages, missionaries, baseball teams etc.
That the power of ratios.

How many kids per 1,000 die in boarding schools vs say inter city schools?  How many per 1,000 in cults?  How many fireman die per 1,000 each year?  Of course they are all different populations but on that one level you can compare one constant, then you can justify the results by saying "Well sure more fireman get hurt because they are running into burning buildings etc."  But the data speaks for itself and it is comparable data.
I think it could help explain and bring a stronger message to prospective parents,  you shouldnt discard it so quickly.

[Anonymous]

No, you are asking the wrong questions and attempting to lump these abusive cults in with activities that don't compare. It's okay, program minds need to keep spinning themselves around to make sense of the world around them, we all understand.

Again, how many public schools MURDER their students?

How many fire departments MURDERED their cadets?

How many kids were at school against their will, taken in by kidnappers? How many firefighters?

First - you will never be able to compile these numbers, so you are pursuing a blind alley (which I think you are doing on purpose).

Second - these facilities do harm that is immesuarable even if the child is not killed. Emotional stress, emotional abuse, physcological torture are all activities included in the price of WWASP. Suicide is a tragic byproduct of this corrupt and fear-mongering system called WWASP.

But the data speaks for itself and it is comparable data.

There is no comparable data to programs becuase they are in a category all their own. Every comparison you list here is an accountable system. Schooling, Firefighting... they keep records and have requirements, training, etc. WWASP has none. It is an unregulated business who murders children behind closed doors, accountable to no one.

If you want to spend your time compiling data that you will never be allowed to get, by all means, go for it. Personally, as with many other ex-studnets, we know first hand the horror of these faciltiies and don't feel the need to compile numbers to convince parents otherwise. If parents ignore the true stories of horror, and ignorantly ask for statistics... god help their child.

[TheWho]

I guess I am not being clear, I appologize.  I work with data for a living, but sometimes I dont communicate very well.  Let me step back,  lets say that these cults are murdering our kids as you say and we are measuring deaths.  We look at national data that tells us that one child in 1,000 will die each year in our public school system which is 0.1%.  Now we dont know if these kids were murdered by their teachers or just died naturally, all we know is that they died.
Now if we compare this to other schools WWASP or other RTCs and see that it is substantially higher say one child in 100 or 1%, then that would be compelling evidence which would make parents or authorities sit up and take notice.  Murdered or not, these kids are dieing !!!!
This is the first step, if the cults are out of balance with the rest of the system, people will want to know why, and stop sending there kids there until an investigation is done nad force regulations and records to be kept etc.
But one needs to start somewhere, believe me these number are comparable, they are used in court cases and libel suits everyday, and in fact you cant make a case without them.

Personally, as with many other ex-studnets, we know first hand the horror of these faciltiies and don't feel the need to compile numbers to convince parents otherwise

I find it hard to believe that you witnessed this horror first hand but find no need to convince parents not to send their kids to one of these places.  If someone abused me or killed one of my friends I would do everything I could to expose these people!!

so you are pursuing a blind alley (which I think you are doing on purpose).

I am not going down a blind alley, if there is data to be had, it will help the cause.  What I dont understand is why you and others are so willing to turn a blind eye or get angry at the thought of collecting numbers.  Somehow I suspect you may be part of one of these programs and are just trying to step on the idea of exposing the truth

[Anonymous]

Now that we both think the other is a program employee I'm not sure this conversation will get very far, but I will try to explain my position better. :razz:

It's offensive to me and others I'm sure that you even compare these programs to public schools. I've been to public school for 10 years, and spent close to two years in various programs. There is NO comparison. Anyone who was at a program knows this. (violence in school is amongst the teens themsleves, not an adult abusing their position to emotionally or physically harm a child)

Personally, knowing how a lot of programs are structured, I know it will be close to impossible to gather the data you are after. I would love it if you could show the world how abusive, murderous and devestating these programs are. BUT - I don't think you can obtain this data, hence my reasoning why you are pointing people down blind alleys.

I am anti-WWASP, anti-PROVO because I was at both these programs and know first hand how terrible they really are. That is my position. If I am misunderstanding your position, I apologize. Perhaps we are on the same side of this argument.

So no more discouragement from me. If you think you can produce this data, I am all for it.  :tup:  :tup:

[Anonymous]

On 2005-12-20 18:19:00, Anonymous wrote:

"It's way more than two, that's the point of listing the names for current and prospective parents:



1.  Valerie Heron, Tranquility Bay suicide while at program

2.  Ryan Grasso, death at home after SCL 12/12/05

3.  Corey Murphy, suicide after Paradise Cove

4.  Chris Sutton, on trial for hiring hitman to murder parents (mom killed, dad left blind from gunshot injuries)- count mom as a casualty

5.  Girl at SCL who hung herself while at SCL- name?

6.  Christopher Landre, suicide after Paradise Cove

7.  Randi Koetz, suicide after Casa by the Sea 4/10/05

8.  Bryan Richardson, murdered by brother after Casa by the Sea 2/27/05

9.  Robert Carter Evans, suicide 4/10/05

10.  Michael "Romeo" Perry, Murder (on death row in Texas). Casa By The Sea







Keep this list going, people.









"

What's with all the AFTER the program stuff?  I know Landre didn't complete the program and still had many issues he never had the opportunity to heal.  Isn't that why his father is now helping keep the kids in until they have had the time to heal with his nonprofit Landre Foundation?  Could it be that is why the others died = they didn't use what they learned or didn't complete for one reason or another?  I get you all are mostly control freaks that love to play on the fears of parents or relatives who wish they could have helped their kid at home.  

How many lives have YOU destroyed by your words?

Anyone know how many parents didn't get help because of what they read on forums like this and their child ran away/died/is in jail/drug addicted - these are all forms of death -