Early withdrawal

[Anonymous]

On 2005-12-13 10:35:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

What do you do to help them? What do you do to help them become responsible people? What do you do to protect others, and themselves, from their actions?

Don't send them to a WWASP/PROVO type program!



Those questions are easily answered by a real and responsible parent who takes their job seriously. But, this is not a parenting advice forum, it's to discuss the bad programs, which we do. Then we get people like you coming through saying it's up to us to solve all the parents problems to prevent more kids from getting abused? Get fucking real.



Nobody here is saying they are some awesome parent or anything and have all the anwwers. All we are doing here is pointing out the bad programs, out of the thousands that are out there. There is no motive to lie once you are out of the program. Especially years and years after the fact. On the other hand, the program DOES have a HUGE incentive (about 100 million reasons per year) to keep the lie going. To keep the criticism at a minimum by discrediting witnesses. By spending unheard of sums on lawyers to file suit against survivors and defend against rightful claims of abuse. To be the largest political donor to the GOP in the state of Utah. Why would a self help program have to be THE largest political donor in the state if it was legit?"

Oh please! So you think that all teens that run amok are due to poor parents?  You think all the messed up, lost and stuggling teens in the world are simply because mommy and daddy don't care and don't take their jobs seriously?

There are LOADS of parents that have done everything in their power, they have tried everything they know - and it still doesn't matter.   Don't you think that at least SOME of these parents that send these kids to these places are doing so because they are desperately looking for answers?  

And like I have said - I'm sure there are cases of abuse, but that does not mean that every program is bad.  It does not mean that someone that was helped is a liar/programmie/etc.  And until there are better, more effective ways to help teens that are in trouble, these places will continue - - - the good, tha bad and the ugly.

I hear calls for proof.  Does anyone have any numbers on this issue?  How many programs are there?  How many kids have gone thru?  What is the average time they have stayed?  What percentage have claimed abuse?  Is this a knee jerk reaction akin to throwing the baby out with the bath water?  Or is this a pervasive problem?  

I fully understand that someone may have talked with a LOT of people (whatever number that may be) that claim abuse - - but what percentage of the population is that?  I can talk to 5000 people, which seems like a lot to me, but on a population base of 1,000,000,000 - it is insignificant.

[Anonymous]

It's frustrating arguing with a fool, so that's it for me. Consider this though, you are smack dab in the middle of a forum for one of the worst programs in the world. why?

[Anonymous]

On 2005-12-13 11:19:00, Anonymous wrote:

"It's frustrating arguing with a fool, so that's it for me. Consider this though, you are smack dab in the middle of a forum for one of the worst programs in the world. why?"

Yes it is frustrating arguing with a fool.  However, I am not a fool and have said nothing foolish.  I have neither supported the programs nor denied abuse has happened.

It seems that many - perhaps yourself as well - are unable to discuss this topic reasonably and rationally.  I understand it is an emotionally topic, and many people simply are unable to separate themselves from the emotion to debate and discuss.  They fail to see beyond their narrow scope and personal agenda.

Why am I here?  I wasn't aware that justification was required.  Perhaps you would like to share your reasons - or not.  It seems rather irrelevant to the topic at hand.

[Anonymous]

Hehe. Good luck. :wave:

[Nihilanthic]

On 2005-12-13 10:19:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

On 2005-12-13 07:02:00, Nihilanthic wrote:


" :roll:





Wheres the proof that they aren't telling the truth, and your claims ARE true?





The "proof" for reasonable suspicion should be apparent: consistency. They all say the same things happen, theyve all said them for decades. People seperated by time and distance all saying the same thing cant be lying without some sort of conspiracy.





Unless you want me to think theyre all either programmed to lie a certain way or theres a conspiracy, Id say there a perponderance of evidence that something is going on, and mere suspicion of it would be enough for me to





1. not send a child there





2. suggest to anyone wanting to put a child in such a place to not do so





3. to remove a kid from there because... they totally restrict information and tell the parent BEFORE the child is even in the program he will lie to get out, thus making it impossible to know whats going on because the program is in total control of communication, and even tries to keep the parents from the child until the parent goes through a seminar in many cases, or that the chld must "earn" the right to contact their parents.





#3 DEFINITELY besmirks me as "covering your ass before you even do anything" and is wrong, period, anyway! Furthermore, cutting off communication and requiring conformity and obedience before talking to your own parents is unbeliveably coersive and cruel.





But hey, totally breaking their will (which at least some WWASPS owners/adminstrators have said themselves) must be okay to some people.

The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism.




--William Osler

"

PROOF for REASONABLE SUSPICION?!?!?!  So now you are saying this is a suspicion, not the truth?



I have not made any claims.  In fact, I stated that I felt that some abuse probably did occur.  I was simply pointing out that your had no more "proof" than the other side.  



Yes, you claim LOTS of people over a period of time and space have made the same claims.  Well, LOTS of people over a periods of time and space have also said they were helped tremendously as well.  But you discount them because they do not agree with you.  You dismiss them as being "programmed".  You offer no more proof than anyone else.



But ok - how about something more productive.  Let's just put aside the fact that your argument/proof is faulty.  Let's take it as a given that these places are hell-holes of abuse.  



Now, let's also agree that there are a hell of a lot of teenagers that are out of control/on the wrong path/etc.  We have all encountered them - whether they are drugged out, violent, sexually wild, whatever.  What do you do to help them?  What do you do to help them become responsible people?  What do you do to protect others, and themselves, from their actions?



Seems like THAT is the real problem - no one seems to have a way to help these kids. Seems most just want to sit back and bitch about the things that people are doing to try to help them.

"

Uh, first, do no harm? Sometimes the choice is to NOT do something.  :roll:

Let your kids grow up! And, doing something just because you have to do something when nothing would be better, is stupid!

Power concedes nothing without a demand. The limit of oppression is determined by the extent of the endurance of the oppressed.
--Frederick Douglas

[TheWho]

Uh, first, do no harm? Sometimes the choice is to NOT do something.  

Let your kids grow up! And, doing something just because you have to do something when nothing would be better, is stupid!

I think everyone would agree to that, parents (parents that I know) wouldnt jump into having every problem solved by someone else, otherwise there would be tons of kids in RTCs starting at age 2.  You can allow kids to grow up, make mistakes, learn by trial and error up to a point.  If they get to a point where their behavior may be risking their life or the wellbeing of the family (siblings) Then action needs to be taken to insure everyone is safe.
So yes, I think we agree on that one, which is good they are few and far between it seems.

[Anonymous]

The PROBLEM is that many problems that dont exist are created by people selling program treatment, and many problems that arent severe at all are inflated into seemingly mortal threats in the mind of the parent.

Also, some parents just dont care and want to dump the kid. Rate wise, the amount of kids in programs is very low. A few ten thousand is still far too many even if its a percent or two of the population of the nation, but regardless, most parents DONT use programs, period. We seem to agree on that too.

I'd also ask you to recall the fact taht programs and edcons are out to make a buck, not to turn away kids that dont need problems, becuase that way they dont need money, and Ive seen ZERO evidence of that.

[TheWho]

I'd also ask you to recall the fact taht programs and edcons are out to make a buck, not to turn away kids that dont need problems, becuase that way they dont need money, and Ive seen ZERO evidence of that.

Everyone is out to make a buck, churchs, redcross, nonprofit orgs, drug dealers etc. and whether you choose to believe it or not some schools turn kids away who are not a good fit or who may not be successful,  I have first hand knowledge of that.

If you really want to look at "hand over fist" gross profits.  Trace an ounce of coke back to its origin and see how much the farmer gets paid and compare that to what the "End user" pays.  The percentage (margin) blows away the profits of any RTC and drug profits are tax free !!!

[Anonymous]

I think everyone would agree to that, parents (parents that I know) wouldnt jump into having every problem solved by someone else, otherwise there would be tons of kids in RTCs starting at age 2. You can allow kids to grow up, make mistakes, learn by trial and error up to a point. If they get to a point where their behavior may be risking their life or the wellbeing of the family (siblings) Then action needs to be taken to insure everyone is safe.
So yes, I think we agree on that one, which is good they are few and far between it seems.

Are you even a parent? You type a lot like 'proudgrad' did, who mysteriously dissappeared recently.  :roll:

[TheWho]

On 2005-12-13 17:25:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

I think everyone would agree to that, parents (parents that I know) wouldnt jump into having every problem solved by someone else, otherwise there would be tons of kids in RTCs starting at age 2. You can allow kids to grow up, make mistakes, learn by trial and error up to a point. If they get to a point where their behavior may be risking their life or the wellbeing of the family (siblings) Then action needs to be taken to insure everyone is safe.

So yes, I think we agree on that one, which is good they are few and far between it seems.

Are you even a parent? You type a lot like 'proudgrad' did, who mysteriously dissappeared recently.  :roll: "

Yes I am a parent

[Anonymous]

If you really want to look at "hand over fist" gross profits. Trace an ounce of coke back to its origin and see how much the farmer gets paid and compare that to what the "End user" pays. The percentage (margin) blows away the profits of any RTC and drug profits are tax free !!

Okay, you just outed yourself as a troll. By troll, I mean a complete RETARD teen who probably just got out of the program yesterday. I don't blame you though, I would be bored if I was on home contract too. Let me ask you one question though, you actually think the cocaine 'farmer' sells his product directly to the customer?  :lol: Don't answer that, because I really have no interest in what you say other than for a good chuckle. Thanks for the laugh, I needed it. I love the naivety of some on this board.
You have obviously be stung by WWASP and infected with their venom.

[Anonymous]

Yes I am a parent

Mother, father? How many children? What are their ages?
(PS: I think your lying.. but humor us anyways-why not?)
OR do you expect people to take parenting advice from a baghead?

[TheWho]

On 2005-12-13 17:32:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

If you really want to look at "hand over fist" gross profits. Trace an ounce of coke back to its origin and see how much the farmer gets paid and compare that to what the "End user" pays. The percentage (margin) blows away the profits of any RTC and drug profits are tax free !!

Okay, you just outed yourself as a troll. By troll, I mean a complete RETARD teen who probably just got out of the program yesterday. I don't blame you though, I would be bored if I was on home contract too. Let me ask you one question though, you actually think the cocaine 'farmer' sells his product directly to the customer?  :lol: Don't answer that, because I really have no interest in what you say other than for a good chuckle. Thanks for the laugh, I needed it. I love the naivety of some on this board.

You have obviously be stung by WWASP and infected with their venom. "

where did it say the farmer sells to the end user?  It gets stepped on many times along the way and each time it loses value but increases in price.  The farmer gets virtually nothing the end user pays alot.

The point was there is a tremendous profit made. You are now thinking to yourself "I should have read his post more slowly, I feel like an idiot"

[Anonymous]

Hehe, nope. I'm thinking it's perfect that you compare WWASP with drug dealers. THERE ARE NO ACCIDENTS... right? "AGREED!"  :roll:

troll troll away proudgrad.. haha..  :lol:

[Anonymous]

So how many times does WWASP's profits get stepped on??