Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform > CEDU / Brown Schools and derivatives / clones
RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Whooter:
--- Quote from: "Awake" ---You’re previous answer is an example of transactional disqualification Whooter. It takes our conversation out of its original context without answering the question.
--- End quote ---
Sorry, Awake, but I don’t agree with you. I think it is a good discussion and clearly on topic of determining if staff can be considered abusive if the process is abusive.
I think you are having a difficult time understanding what I mean by the vantage point. I think you could break any process down and find pieces to be abusive. But does that mean the person is abusive or the process itself is abusive?
If the child is helped in the end then can we look back and say the program/process was abusive? Was it helpful? If it saved his life can the process be viewed as negative?
So I think it is helpful to view the topic from many vantage points.
--- Quote ---I won’t waste my time picking over the flaws in your statement, but I will pose the question to everyone else.
--- End quote ---
I usually don’t pick apart peoples posts myself for flaws unless there is some value in the clarification which would lead to a better discussion. If there is something you think I am missing then please clarify.
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Awake:
I’m not arguing with you. People are free to decide whether you have any merit in this conversation or not. This was the original context of the conversation that you don't have an answer for.
--- Quote from: "Awake" ---
--- Quote from: "Awake" ---
--- Quote from: "Whooter" ---
--- Quote from: "Awake" ---
So if the program is abusive by nature, and the staff are implementing it accordingly, that does not make the staff abusive?
.
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That’s actually a really good question, Awake. I guess they would be viewed as abusive. But would they know it themselves? Maybe they feel they are doing good.
Take the girl at the pharmacy counter who gives you the morning after pill. Does she know what she is giving you? Is she considered complicit in the murder of an unborn child? Is the Pharmacist that fills the prescription? Or just The doctor who prescribed it?
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What if the pill isn't a pill but a direct action that controls the behavior and autonomy of another? Holding someone to the ground, insulting them, telling to 'fight for their life'. I'm really not going to go into the whole of Cedu with you, but I'll assert right now that the entire context was abusive, and I'll defend that statement if you want. I think it's a good question too.
If the program is abusive by nature, and the staff are implementing it accordingly, that does not make the staff abusive?
I don't society has enough insight into these programs to make a clear, ethical judgement for how we should prosecute abuse in the troubled teen industry, and it can't operate ethically until we do.
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--- Quote from: "Whooter" ---
--- Quote from: "Awake" ---
What if the pill isn't a pill but a direct action that controls the behavior and autonomy of another? Holding someone to the ground, insulting them, telling to 'fight for their life'. I'm really not going to go into the whole of Cedu with you, but I'll assert right now that the entire context was abusive, and I'll defend that statement if you want. I think it's a good question too.
If the program is abusive by nature, and the staff are implementing it accordingly, that does not make the staff abusive?
I don't society has enough insight into these programs to make a clear, ethical judgement for how we should prosecute abuse in the troubled teen industry, and it can't operate ethically until we do.
.
--- End quote ---
I think one needs to decide what the vantage point is before the answer can be attained.
For example if we looked at the staff administering chemotherapy and watched the child slowly get sick, start vomiting, watch her hair fall out, watch her cry and become too embarrassed to have her friends see her. It is clearly abusive(short term) but we accept it because the abuse may make her better long term.
The same may be true with the staff at these programs that you describe. You also might consider that very few people could maintain a job where they wake knowing they are going to abusing children. I couldn’t imagine that any of them feel that way.
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So we need to develop a vantage point AFTER they operate? Why? We have standards in the health industry that clearly define how chemotherapy is to be applied. If the doctor misuses it, he will be prosecuted. The therapy itself is not applied without extremely thourough testing that proves it to be safe for use.
Why are we going to skip this step to let these institutions ‘practice’?
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Paul St. John:
--- Quote ---
Joel I will send whatever message to the mods I feel like.
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And Joel, I, or anyone else will respond to it however we like
--- Quote --- You really can't be serious with this message. Why do I feel I am constantly dealing with kids here........lol.
Danny
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Perhaps, because in your mind, people doing what they actually believe to be right, actually caring about things, and even the mere idea of having a genuine liking and respect for others that last more then a half hour, is very childish notion.
You also seem to think that making sense is a very naive idea reserved for the young.
If I wanted to, there were many times where I think that I could have had you crying, right where you sit, with the least amount of effort. So many times, I resisted going in for the kill.
Stop being a dick!
Paul
Paul St. John:
--- Quote ---If the child is helped in the end then can we look back and say the program/process was abusive?
--- End quote ---
Only if it was....
Did it involve abuse? then "Yes. It was abusive."
You do not need to look any further then that.
If I attack you one day, and it changes your life, and makes you a stronger person, I still attacked you.
--- Quote ---Was it helpful? If it saved his life can the process be viewed as negative?
--- End quote ---
The process can be and would be viewed as negative, so long as it was. If it somehow, on occasion bears positive results, of course, we view the results, as positive, but the process, if negative, is still negative.
I think one of the most basic concepts in the American culture, is the realization that the ends do not justify the means.
Would you agree with the statement that the end do not justify the means?
Paul
Whooter:
--- Quote from: "Awake" ---I’m not arguing with you. People are free to decide whether you have any merit in this conversation or not. This was the original context of the conversation that you don't have an answer for.
--- End quote ---
Sometimes there are no defined answers to questions in conversations. If there were then the conversation would be short. In situations where there are many viewpoints there is an opportunity to learn something new and forge into new territory. Listening to others point of view is one way to grow and learn.
You shouldn't sit back and wait for people to provide you with answers, awake, you should express your own opinions and hope people learn from them and that you learn something in return from others.
I think you made a few good points on the subject and it is an interesting topic which I would hope others would state their opinion also.
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