RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU

[Awake]

I think anyone at Cedu will relate to this.  It doesn’t fill in all the gaps of course, Cedu was a hodgepodge of things. Overall though I do think using terms like brainwashing or cults signifies a lack of terminology for something that has slipped unchallenged into our society.  I feel this terminology translates neatly into the epistemology of family therapy theory, cybernetics, and Double Bind theory, which historically has an appropriate connection with therapeutic communities.   viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423




BRAINWASHING: Dysfunctional groups, cults, sects and Mind Control:  AN EXPLORATION OF DYSFUNCTIONAL GROUPS, SECTS AND CULTS.


Some Broad Definitions

……


Cults.


This is a negative term. It generally refers to a group or sect that has sinister aspects to it, such as attempts at coercion. In various ways they are dysfunctional, unhealthy groups.



CULTS



There are four main types: Religious, Political, Therapy/educational, and Commercial.


They do not carry out brainwashing. Brainwashing is overt, coercive and it is plain who the enemy is. Rather they carry out mind control or thought reform. Here, the perpetrators are



a) regarded as friends or peers making the candidate less defensive.


b) The candidate participates unwittingly with their controllers, for example by giving private information.


c) The new belief system is internalised into a new identity structure.


d) The group may use hypnotic processes and group dynamics.



THE COMPONENTS OF MIND CONTROL



1) BEHAVIOUR CONTROL



By regulating the environment:



a) Where you live


b) What clothing you wear


c) What food you eat


d) How much sleep you have


e) What jobs and goals you have.


f) Rituals and indoctrination


g) Restriction of free time – sometimes an apocalyptic sense of urgency


h) Financial dependency


i) Permission required to do things, i.e. phone relative


j) Suppression of individuality to group conformity


k) Pyramidical authoritarian command structure


l) Use of punishment and reward, often keeping members off balance – praised one day, punished the next.


m) Use of mannerisms of speech and posture


n) Regulation of interpersonal relationships – emotional allegiance to leader – no real friends because if the person leaves they may take others with them.


o) Group activities which creates privacy deprivation and thwarts reflection.



2) THOUGHT CONTROL



By indoctrination, such that beliefs are internalised.




a) Group has the Truth – the only map of reality. This moulds and filters incoming data. The doctrine is reality, the most effective being those which are unverifiable – global yet vague but apparently consistent. Reality is externally referenced via an authority figure and other members who are looked to for direction and meaning.


b) Black and white thinking – Group is good, outsiders bad. Thus good vs evil, Us vs them, Spiritual vs physical. No pluralism or multi perspective taking.


c) Group beliefs are scientifically proven and explain everything


d) Loaded language. E.g. A Cain and Abel problem


e) Blocking out critical thoughts by:


i) Denial: “What you say is not happening at all”
ii) Rationalisation: “It is happening for a good reason”
iii) Justification: “It is happening because it ought to”
iv) Wishful thinking: “I would like it to be true so maybe it is”
v) Demonising: “Lies put about by Satan/Persecution that we would expect”.
vi) Thought stopping: By chanting/ tongue speaking
vii) Punishment: Being given the silent treatment or transfer to another group e.t.c.



3) EMOTIONAL CONTROL


Emotions are controlled by the use of:



a) Guilt: in order to produce conformity and compliance. Guilt takes a number of aspects:
i) Historical guilt. – We dropped the bomb on Hiroshima
ii) Identity guilt – “I’m not living up to my potential”
iii) Past guilt – “I cheated on a test” A persons past is rewritten: everything is dark
iv) Social guilt – People are dying of starvation
v) Quality guilt- not meeting standards


b) Fear: By creating an outside enemy – unbelievers, Satan, therapists. Of discovery and punishment by leadersA major motivator.


c) Happiness: As defined by the group. Obtained by good performance and/or confession.


d) Loyalty and devotion.


e) Confession of past sins – this is often used against the person.


f) Phobia indoctrination. Induced panic reaction at the thought of leaving. Dark stories are
told of those who have left both in lectures and informal gossip. The idea of the Devil waiting to seduce and tempt, kill or drive insane. The more vivid and tangible, the more intense the cohesiveness it fosters.



4) INFORMATION CONTROL


The control of destabilising information by:





a) Denial of information so that sound judgements cannot be made. E.g. minimal access to T.V., non-group magazines, newspapers or radio. Partially achieved through busyness.


b) Criticism of the leader with peers not allowed


c) Members report improper activities to leader.


d) New converts do not talk to one another without a chaperone


e) Contact with ex members and critics avoided.


f) Compartmentalisation of information so that members do not know the ‘big picture’.


g) Multi levelled truth- the higher you are, the more is revealed.


i) For outsiders
ii) For members
iii) For leaders
iv) For high leaders



THE PROCESSES OF MIND CONTROL



There are three steps:



1) Unfreezing


2) Changing


3) Refreezing



1) UNFREEZING.




This is a shaking up and disorientation. A breaking up of the frames of reference used by the person for understanding themselves and their surroundings. This disarms the person’s defences against concepts that challenge reality.

Approaches include:





a) Physiological disorientation via sleep deprivation, new diets and eating schedules. Often best accomplished in a totally controlled environment such as a retreat at amcountry estate.


b) Hypnotic processes such as the deliberate use of confusion via contradictory information.


c) Sensory overload – being bombarded with material faster than it can be digested.


d) Use of double binds – “I am putting doubts in your mind”.


e) Group exercises –


1) Guided meditation.


2) Personal confession


3) Prayer sessions


4) Group singing


5) Vigorous callisthenics
Group activities enforce privacy deprivation and reflection.


f) As people weaken – A bombardment with the idea that the person is badly flawed, mentally ill, incompetent or spiritually fallen. Any identified problems are blown out of all proportion. There may be humiliation in front of the group.



2) CHANGING



The imposition of a new identity, a new set of thoughts, emotions and behaviours to fill the void of unfreezing. This takes place:



a) Formally – in lectures, seminars and rituals


b) Informally –in spending time with members, reading, listening to tapes, watching videos.


The approaches to change include:


a) Repetition, monotony and rhythm – the hypnotic cadences in which formal indoctrination is delivered


b) A focus on central themes:


1) The world is bad.


2) The unenlightened do not know how to fix it


3) The old self keeps you from experiencing the new truth fully.


4) Old concepts drag you down.


5) The rational mind holds you back – let go.


c) The material for the new identity is given out gradually – “Tell him only what he can accept.” “Milk for the baby, meat for the adult”


d) Artificially induced spiritual experience. Private information is secretly passed and revealed at the appropriate time as an ‘insight’.


e) Asking for God’s will for them. Via prayer and study. The implication is that joining the group is God’s will, leaving is not.


f) Group processes:



1) Being surrounded by people who are convinced that they know what is best for you.


2) Via cells or small groups- questioners and doubters may be isolated into their own group.


3) Sharing sessions with ordinary members, where past evils are confessed, present successes told and a sense of community fostered.



3) REFREEZING.



This is the building up of the new person, giving them a new purpose and new activities to solidify the new identity. New beliefs are internalised by the person.

Approaches include


a) Denigration of the old self, maximising sins, failings, hurt and guilt.


b) Modelling. The new member is paired with an older member whom they should emulate.


c) The group is the member’s new family.


d) Possible giving of a new name.


e) Turning over the bank account – subsequently it may be too painful to admit this mistake.


f) Sleep deprivation, lack of privacy, diet changes continued.


g) New location – no links with the past – only the new identity here.


h) Evangelising/prosteletizing – selling one’s own beliefs to others to firm up one’s own beliefs.


i) Difficult and humiliating fund raising. Can provoke a sense of glorious martyrdom.



General comments



There is no legitimate way to leave a cult.


The result of these processes is a dual identity - the old self does not disappear, but occasionally surfaces in humour, and greater emotional range and spontaneity. But it is clothed in the new cult self such that the person is more robot-like, rigid and cold-eyed. But the real identity holds the key to escape and to the inner desires. These emerge via psychosomatic illness, requiring outside treatment, dreams of being trapped, concentration camps e.t.c. and spiritual experiences, of voices telling them to leave e.t.c..



Problems in the group are always the fault of the member, due to:



a) His weakness


b) His lack of understanding


c) Bad ancestors


d) Evil spirits


e) His inadequacies.



ANALYSING AND ASSESSING GROUPS


Look at what the group does, not at what it believes. They have the right to believe what they want, but they do not have an automatic licence to act on those beliefs, else white supremacy groups would kill all blacks for example. Destructive groups undermine individual choice and liberty.


…. (end)

I found this  http://www.scribd.com/doc/17647941/BRAI ... nd-Control

I’ve certainly seen this model, the BITE model, and the ‘Unfreezing, change, refreeze’ concept, but I thought this was about as thorough and concise a presentation that I had come across.


.

[Anne Bonney]

I dunno 'bout you, but if a peer of mine in program were to die or even to suffer long term trauma as a direct result of the "programming" we were subjected to... it wouldn't matter how "great" a time I had, the experience would be seriously tainted for me.

You have no personal experience with this, so your whole statement is speculative. You don't know this.
Hmmmmm.........drama.


danny

Ok...Well, I do have personal experience with it and his statement is dead on accurate.

[Anne Bonney]

Yep.  I think one of the things that helped me the most, when researching and trying to make myself whole again after Straight, was the Ex Cult Resource website.  When I read Lifton, Singer, Hassan, Groenveld etc.....it all made complete sense to me.

http://www.ex-cult.org/



General Information

    * Lifton's Criteria for Thought Reform
    * Conditions for Mind Control (Margaret Singer)
    * Mind Control - The BITE Model (Steven Hassan)
    * A Behavioral Definition (of 'cult') (Kevin Crawley)
    * Identifying a Cult (Jan Groenveld)
    * Totalism & Group Dynamics (Jan Groenveld)
    * Academic Research into Cults (Jeff Jacobsen)

I think anyone at Cedu will relate to this.  It doesn’t fill in all the gaps of course, Cedu was a hodgepodge of things. Overall though I do think using terms like brainwashing or cults signifies a lack of terminology for something that has slipped unchallenged into our society.  I feel this terminology translates neatly into the epistemology of family therapy theory, cybernetics, and Double Bind theory, which historically has an appropriate connection with therapeutic communities.   viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423




BRAINWASHING: Dysfunctional groups, cults, sects and Mind Control:  AN EXPLORATION OF DYSFUNCTIONAL GROUPS, SECTS AND CULTS.


Some Broad Definitions

……


Cults.


This is a negative term. It generally refers to a group or sect that has sinister aspects to it, such as attempts at coercion. In various ways they are dysfunctional, unhealthy groups.



CULTS



There are four main types: Religious, Political, Therapy/educational, and Commercial.


They do not carry out brainwashing. Brainwashing is overt, coercive and it is plain who the enemy is. Rather they carry out mind control or thought reform. Here, the perpetrators are



a) regarded as friends or peers making the candidate less defensive.


b) The candidate participates unwittingly with their controllers, for example by giving private information.


c) The new belief system is internalised into a new identity structure.


d) The group may use hypnotic processes and group dynamics.



THE COMPONENTS OF MIND CONTROL



1) BEHAVIOUR CONTROL



By regulating the environment:



a) Where you live


b) What clothing you wear


c) What food you eat


d) How much sleep you have


e) What jobs and goals you have.


f) Rituals and indoctrination


g) Restriction of free time – sometimes an apocalyptic sense of urgency


h) Financial dependency


i) Permission required to do things, i.e. phone relative


j) Suppression of individuality to group conformity


k) Pyramidical authoritarian command structure


l) Use of punishment and reward, often keeping members off balance – praised one day, punished the next.


m) Use of mannerisms of speech and posture


n) Regulation of interpersonal relationships – emotional allegiance to leader – no real friends because if the person leaves they may take others with them.


o) Group activities which creates privacy deprivation and thwarts reflection.



2) THOUGHT CONTROL



By indoctrination, such that beliefs are internalised.




a) Group has the Truth – the only map of reality. This moulds and filters incoming data. The doctrine is reality, the most effective being those which are unverifiable – global yet vague but apparently consistent. Reality is externally referenced via an authority figure and other members who are looked to for direction and meaning.


b) Black and white thinking – Group is good, outsiders bad. Thus good vs evil, Us vs them, Spiritual vs physical. No pluralism or multi perspective taking.


c) Group beliefs are scientifically proven and explain everything


d) Loaded language. E.g. A Cain and Abel problem


e) Blocking out critical thoughts by:


i) Denial: “What you say is not happening at all”
ii) Rationalisation: “It is happening for a good reason”
iii) Justification: “It is happening because it ought to”
iv) Wishful thinking: “I would like it to be true so maybe it is”
v) Demonising: “Lies put about by Satan/Persecution that we would expect”.
vi) Thought stopping: By chanting/ tongue speaking
vii) Punishment: Being given the silent treatment or transfer to another group e.t.c.



3) EMOTIONAL CONTROL


Emotions are controlled by the use of:



a) Guilt: in order to produce conformity and compliance. Guilt takes a number of aspects:
i) Historical guilt. – We dropped the bomb on Hiroshima
ii) Identity guilt – “I’m not living up to my potential”
iii) Past guilt – “I cheated on a test” A persons past is rewritten: everything is dark
iv) Social guilt – People are dying of starvation
v) Quality guilt- not meeting standards


b) Fear: By creating an outside enemy – unbelievers, Satan, therapists. Of discovery and punishment by leadersA major motivator.


c) Happiness: As defined by the group. Obtained by good performance and/or confession.


d) Loyalty and devotion.


e) Confession of past sins – this is often used against the person.


f) Phobia indoctrination. Induced panic reaction at the thought of leaving. Dark stories are
told of those who have left both in lectures and informal gossip. The idea of the Devil waiting to seduce and tempt, kill or drive insane. The more vivid and tangible, the more intense the cohesiveness it fosters.



4) INFORMATION CONTROL


The control of destabilising information by:





a) Denial of information so that sound judgements cannot be made. E.g. minimal access to T.V., non-group magazines, newspapers or radio. Partially achieved through busyness.


b) Criticism of the leader with peers not allowed


c) Members report improper activities to leader.


d) New converts do not talk to one another without a chaperone


e) Contact with ex members and critics avoided.


f) Compartmentalisation of information so that members do not know the ‘big picture’.


g) Multi levelled truth- the higher you are, the more is revealed.


i) For outsiders
ii) For members
iii) For leaders
iv) For high leaders



THE PROCESSES OF MIND CONTROL



There are three steps:



1) Unfreezing


2) Changing


3) Refreezing



1) UNFREEZING.




This is a shaking up and disorientation. A breaking up of the frames of reference used by the person for understanding themselves and their surroundings. This disarms the person’s defences against concepts that challenge reality.

Approaches include:





a) Physiological disorientation via sleep deprivation, new diets and eating schedules. Often best accomplished in a totally controlled environment such as a retreat at amcountry estate.


b) Hypnotic processes such as the deliberate use of confusion via contradictory information.


c) Sensory overload – being bombarded with material faster than it can be digested.


d) Use of double binds – “I am putting doubts in your mind”.


e) Group exercises –


1) Guided meditation.


2) Personal confession


3) Prayer sessions


4) Group singing


5) Vigorous callisthenics
Group activities enforce privacy deprivation and reflection.


f) As people weaken – A bombardment with the idea that the person is badly flawed, mentally ill, incompetent or spiritually fallen. Any identified problems are blown out of all proportion. There may be humiliation in front of the group.



2) CHANGING



The imposition of a new identity, a new set of thoughts, emotions and behaviours to fill the void of unfreezing. This takes place:



a) Formally – in lectures, seminars and rituals


b) Informally –in spending time with members, reading, listening to tapes, watching videos.


The approaches to change include:


a) Repetition, monotony and rhythm – the hypnotic cadences in which formal indoctrination is delivered


b) A focus on central themes:


1) The world is bad.


2) The unenlightened do not know how to fix it


3) The old self keeps you from experiencing the new truth fully.


4) Old concepts drag you down.


5) The rational mind holds you back – let go.


c) The material for the new identity is given out gradually – “Tell him only what he can accept.” “Milk for the baby, meat for the adult”


d) Artificially induced spiritual experience. Private information is secretly passed and revealed at the appropriate time as an ‘insight’.


e) Asking for God’s will for them. Via prayer and study. The implication is that joining the group is God’s will, leaving is not.


f) Group processes:



1) Being surrounded by people who are convinced that they know what is best for you.


2) Via cells or small groups- questioners and doubters may be isolated into their own group.


3) Sharing sessions with ordinary members, where past evils are confessed, present successes told and a sense of community fostered.



3) REFREEZING.



This is the building up of the new person, giving them a new purpose and new activities to solidify the new identity. New beliefs are internalised by the person.

Approaches include


a) Denigration of the old self, maximising sins, failings, hurt and guilt.


b) Modelling. The new member is paired with an older member whom they should emulate.


c) The group is the member’s new family.


d) Possible giving of a new name.


e) Turning over the bank account – subsequently it may be too painful to admit this mistake.


f) Sleep deprivation, lack of privacy, diet changes continued.


g) New location – no links with the past – only the new identity here.


h) Evangelising/prosteletizing – selling one’s own beliefs to others to firm up one’s own beliefs.


i) Difficult and humiliating fund raising. Can provoke a sense of glorious martyrdom.



General comments



There is no legitimate way to leave a cult.


The result of these processes is a dual identity - the old self does not disappear, but occasionally surfaces in humour, and greater emotional range and spontaneity. But it is clothed in the new cult self such that the person is more robot-like, rigid and cold-eyed. But the real identity holds the key to escape and to the inner desires. These emerge via psychosomatic illness, requiring outside treatment, dreams of being trapped, concentration camps e.t.c. and spiritual experiences, of voices telling them to leave e.t.c..



Problems in the group are always the fault of the member, due to:



a) His weakness


b) His lack of understanding


c) Bad ancestors


d) Evil spirits


e) His inadequacies.



ANALYSING AND ASSESSING GROUPS


Look at what the group does, not at what it believes. They have the right to believe what they want, but they do not have an automatic licence to act on those beliefs, else white supremacy groups would kill all blacks for example. Destructive groups undermine individual choice and liberty.


…. (end)

I found this  http://www.scribd.com/doc/17647941/BRAI ... nd-Control

I’ve certainly seen this model, the BITE model, and the ‘Unfreezing, change, refreeze’ concept, but I thought this was about as thorough and concise a presentation that I had come across.


.

[Ursus]

Sorry, Whooter, I really don't need to believe anything, and whichever way it was or is ... is not going to "shake my world too much" one way or another at this point. It is what it is, and perhaps it's time that you came to terms with the fact that the propaganda that you spew is not a harmless moneymaker or stock price booster but in fact, fraudulent advertising for programs that affect some kids and their families in very real, tangible, and not in the least bit beneficial ways. And sometimes, with all too fatal consequences.

Jeesh, you have no personal experience with fraudulent advertising that I have read and you have no personal experience of the "all too fatal consequences". I could be wrong, did your parents feel deceived and was their a death at Hyde while you were there.

You really don't have any basis to make any of the above assumptions about me, Danny.

One really has to wonder about what sort of life lessons these kids' peers learn, the ones who ostensibly "do well in programs and move on with their lives."

This is not something you are using any energy to find out, that's for sure. So what is this a rhetorical statement/question

Again, you really do not have any basis to make that assumption, Danny.

I dunno 'bout you, but if a peer of mine in program were to die or even to suffer long term trauma as a direct result of the "programming" we were subjected to... it wouldn't matter how "great" a time I had, the experience would be seriously tainted for me.

You have no personal experience with this, so your whole statement is speculative. You don't know this.
Hmmmmm.........drama.

No. What *IS* pure speculation, however, is what you relied upon to make your baseless assumption. It is YOU who knows not a thing about my personal experience, not I.

And if I had any kind of moral backbone in me.......

You said it.....IF

It's called "phrasing," Danny. Emphasis in the first part of that sentence is on MORAL BACKBONE, which you curiously overlooked.

...I would probably begin to seriously QUESTION the veracity of said methodologies used. And probably also the ideology behind it as well, as I got in deeper.

What I have seen of you over the last 6 months I would agree with this under one condition you tone down the drama....you are looking deeper into it right now, although I don't feel all this heartfelt emotion your trying to convey.

Doncha think?

It depends......

Sorry if there's been any misperception here, Danny, but you don't get to tell me what I post about. Nor how I post ... what I do post about. I'm not exactly going to lose any sleep over whether or not you "agree" with me, let alone under any artificial "conditions" you wish to impose upon me. LOL. Ya can always check with the Admins, but it's my understanding that you have no such authority here; you are just another poster, just like the rest of us.

If my posting style so seriously disturbs you, you have the option of blocking my posts from your view, as does everyone else here. Feel free to avail yourself of this option.

[Ursus]

I was hoping this wasn't another of your comparisons of program with summer camp. Care to spell it out a bit more explicitly, Whooter?

You get upset when I compare programs to summer camp yet it is acceptable to compare programs to Russian gulags and cults?  Hmmm

Lol. You take something which offends you, which one or more users here have posted, and simply assume that all posters are in complete and total agreement with the vernacular. Knee-jerk presumptions, anyone?    

Moreover, you assumed I "got upset." Lol. At this point, I pretty much expect this type of verbal manipulation from you.

I take it that it was summer camp at which you experienced a souring note.

Also, please provide a link to where I allegedly provided you with the grist for this statement:

"You stated yourself that you cannot relate at all to all these kids who do well in programs and you cannot understand what life lesson they learn."[/list]

Since I cannot remember saying such a thing (as written), nor even recognize that statement (as written), it appears, IF indeed I said such a thing, that you have taken it grossly out of context.

Look above (previous post) where you said:
One really has to wonder about what sort of life lessons these kids' peers learn, the ones who ostensibly "do well in programs and move on with their lives."

But even without the quote it is evident, via your postings,  that you cannot relate to kids who do well in programs.

Oh, I'm looking at the two statements, Whooter, and I cannot for the life of me see how you used one to extrapolate to the other. Postulating that "one has to wonder" does in no way imply that one "cannot understand." In fact, more often than not, when people use that former phrase, they often already have some conclusions and/or understanding kicking around in their head, and are using this literary device to elicit some focused contemplation on the part of the reader.

As for your claim that I "cannot relate," this would appear to be yet another presumption on your part. Transference, anyone?  

If the above examples epitomize your reasoning capabilities, they certainly could serve to shed some light on how you are able to continue extrapolating "program success" from insider generated "studies," not to mention press releases geared towards investors, while conveniently bypassing any evidence to the contrary.

[Whooter]

Moreover, you assumed I "got upset."

Yes, I did, and from your response I can see I was dead on.  If you expect everyone to accept comparisons to Gulags from the 1930's then you need to accept comparisons to Summer Camps, outward bound from the 1970's etc.

Oh, I'm looking at the two statements, Whooter, and I cannot for the life of me see how you used one to extrapolate to the other. Postulating that "one has to wonder" does in no way imply that one "cannot understand." In fact, more often than not, when people use that former phrase, they often already have some conclusions and/or understanding kicking around in their head, and are using this literary device to elicit some focused contemplation on the part of the reader.

As for your claim that I "cannot relate," this would appear to be yet another presumption on your part. Transference, anyone?  

So you can either relate to the kids that do well and the life lesson they learned or you cannot (which is it?).  If you feel you can relate to them then that is great and is a big step for you.  If you cannot relate to them then my statement holds true.

If the above examples epitomize your reasoning capabilities, they certainly could serve to shed some light on how you are able to continue extrapolating "program success" from insider generated "studies," not to mention press releases geared towards investors, while conveniently bypassing any evidence to the contrary.

Ah, the ever popular program success,  so that is what has you upset.  Hmmmm, The recent independent study which was overseen by a third (independent oversight organization) which upholds the conclusions from those internal studies you have been turning your nose up at all these years.

So now that the industry has generated independent studies with third party oversight you may want to think about asking for longer term clinical studies.  Maybe that will buy you another year or two of fooling yourself that no studies exist. lol  Even with a Bose noise reduction headset you will be pretty hard pressed to ignore the feedback from a study based on a 1,000 kids and parents.  You guys dedicated an entire thread,  here on fornits, trying to discredit the study but in the end the ethics investigation and conflict of interest review found that the study was done in good standing and has been presented and well received by many psychological associations.

I am sorry this upsets you, but all the google searches you can muster isnt going to overturn a first hand ethics review.



...

[Anne Bonney]

The recent independent study which was overseen by a third (independent oversight organization) which upholds the conclusions from those internal studies you have been turning your nose up at all these years.

[Anne Bonney]

do you mean ambiguity like.. "I was abused by the industry"... well who abused you?... "ah,no one specific,just the industry in general".... hmmm so the entire industry is responsible?...   "Exactly".

I'm afraid I haven't run across that conversation yet, Whooter. Care to provide a link?

Or was this another one of your attempts to belittle or discredit survivor accounts? Do tell.

Yep.  That's exactly what it is.  

I can tell you right now who abused me.  I've told Virgil Miller Newton, a/k/a "Father" Cassian Newton to his face on many, many occasions that he's a child abusing criminal and a sociopathic fraud.  So have the numerous people who have successfully sued him.  So has the federal government.

[Whooter]

Or was this another one of your attempts to belittle or discredit survivor accounts? Do tell.

Belittle or discredit another poster or an entire group of people?  I don’t think anyone would be that insensitive, at least not here.  I don’t think fornits would tolerate it.  
Imagine for a moment if someone tried to discredit or belittle an entire industry and the people who work for it.  Would we sit around and stand for that?  Should we stand up and say:  “Not on my forum!!,  we don’t tolerate that narrow minded thinking here”.



...

[DannyB II]

do you mean ambiguity like.. "I was abused by the industry"... well who abused you?... "ah,no one specific,just the industry in general".... hmmm so the entire industry is responsible?...   "Exactly".

I'm afraid I haven't run across that conversation yet, Whooter. Care to provide a link?

Or was this another one of your attempts to belittle or discredit survivor accounts? Do tell.

Yep.  That's exactly what it is.  

I can tell you right now who abused me.  I've told Virgil Miller Newton, a/k/a "Father" Cassian Newton to his face on many, many occasions that he's a child abusing criminal and a sociopathic fraud.  So have the numerous people who have successfully sued him.  So has the federal government.

Anne you can be so full of yourself sometimes it is hilarious. You walked up to Miller Newton and right in his face (no less then 12 inches away) told him all these things, naw I don't think so. I believe others have done it and you heard their stories but I find you to be a "big talker" with very small heart.

[Pile of Dead Kids]

Yeah I'll post this again.

[SUCK IT]

Pileof Dead Kids, were you in a treatment program ever? Because according to Manne Conney only people who did treatment have any authority to speak about it. That's the rules according to ol' Manne Conney.

You weren't in Straight, therefore have no authority to speak of what happened inside.  

I'm tinking of changing my username to Mountains of Satisfied Kids, because in reality 99.9999999% of kids make it through treatment just fine. So if there's a pile of dead kids, then there is a mount everest of satisfied kids, or at least kids who are still alive to whine about it on the net.  :roflmao:

[Whooter]

Yeah I'll post this again.

This is the type of stuff that keeps us all coming back for more:

Yet, Another Pile classic.  Creates a pyramid and places himself at the top and calls everyone below him “Fucking idiots”.  But by his own definition (and order of echelon) by calling others names it places him down at the bottom under “Ad Hominem” and “Name-calling” which translates into him calling himself a "Fucking Idiot"  (Which he just documented by creating the pyramid in the first place).  How can a guy possibly get more caught up in his own underwear?

Wow, I think I just “Found a mistake” and “refuted the central point”  !!! Lol



...

[Anne Bonney]

do you mean ambiguity like.. "I was abused by the industry"... well who abused you?... "ah,no one specific,just the industry in general".... hmmm so the entire industry is responsible?...   "Exactly".

I'm afraid I haven't run across that conversation yet, Whooter. Care to provide a link?

Or was this another one of your attempts to belittle or discredit survivor accounts? Do tell.

Yep.  That's exactly what it is.  

I can tell you right now who abused me.  I've told Virgil Miller Newton, a/k/a "Father" Cassian Newton to his face on many, many occasions that he's a child abusing criminal and a sociopathic fraud.  So have the numerous people who have successfully sued him.  So has the federal government.

Anne you can be so full of yourself sometimes it is hilarious. You walked up to Miller Newton and right in his face (no less then 12 inches away) told him all these things, naw I don't think so. I believe others have done it and you heard their stories but I find you to be a "big talker" with very small heart.

I don't really care what you believe or don't DannyBoy.  I (and a few others who were with me the several times I've done this at his home/church) got the satisfaction of telling Newton, to his face (it was actually less than 12 inches....wagging my finger so close to his face he could feel the breeze from it) that he's nothing more than a pathetic guru wannabe who abused thousands of kids.  And a psychotic fucking fraud to boot!

But.....it was even more satisfying to tell his bitch wife Ruth Ann, that she could no longer control what we say.....and she did try!  Even then!  I couldn't believe it, so I just got right back in her puckered up mug and told her she could fucking KISS MY ASS!   She wasn't too happy and called the cops who promptly told her that we were on public property and could say whatever the hell we felt like saying.  

Ah, the sheer joy to see their faces.   It's about time for another visit.   His neighbors hate his fake ass too. I only live about 30 minutes from he and Sembler both.

Good times, good times.

[Awake]

Or was this another one of your attempts to belittle or discredit survivor accounts? Do tell.

Belittle or discredit another poster or an entire group of people?  I don’t think anyone would be that insensitive, at least not here.  I don’t think fornits would tolerate it.  
Imagine for a moment if someone tried to discredit or belittle an entire industry and the people who work for it.  Would we sit around and stand for that?  Should we stand up and say:  “Not on my forum!!,  we don’t tolerate that narrow minded thinking here”.



...

Y’know Whooter you have plenty of opportunities to give factually based responses, but your only defense here is to discredit others also.  It’s your choice to continue to focus on the relationship drama here, or respond to the facts that are presented.  I’ve invited you to join this conversation and you’ve had plenty of opportunity to do that, but you just want to discredit me and call me ‘narrow minded’ for having a clearly stated position on the faults of this industry.  If you would like to defend against it,  come on over.

 viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423



.