Press Briefing in DC

[AtomicAnt]

On 2005-10-20 15:16:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Who is fooling who?  

1.   The mental health industry has been shrinking (no pun intended) for decades in part due to medications and fix all drugs (Prozac etc.) which you can get from your primary MD.  Do you think they want to jump in and shut everything down?  No way, they want oversight, to put there controls in, do control studies, look at how many kids do well how many fail.  Improve the system and create jobs for their field.  

2.   The government on the other hand isn?t going to get involved to shut things down either.  That has never happened once (look at smoking) They want regulation they want a piece of it.  They aren?t going to spend tax payers dollars to shut things down.  The parents will send their kids off shore.

3.  These private schools couldn?t get a loan from a bank to by a paint brush.  It is all private money.  The banks dont want to get involved because it is too risky, someone could sue and shut the whole school down.  So once the feds regulate and put the "Good housekeeping seal" on some of these places, the banks will get loan guarantees and start lending these schools money so they can expand.

4.  If the Feds guarantee the loans they are going to want the schools to accept low income kids.

5.  If the feds and mental health people see a benefit after monitoring these schools for a few years BCBS and other insurers and the like will be forced to consider paying a portion if deemed necessary by a school or doctor.

6.  The more schools that open the lower the price will get and the more affordable it will become for middle income families (thats the target audience) Right now there is a need but the private schools are too expensive for most.

7. Some of the lower end schools like I have heard about str8, seed etc.  will probably go under and some of the higher end school will have to offer something special to stay in buisness but the majority will grow and thrive.

8.  If people are mortgaging their houses and future to purchase somethign and it continues to grow the government is going to step in and try to get their shre thru regulation etc.



Do you really think all this is happening so they can shut an industry down?

How many think the teen help industry will be gone in 10 years, raise your hands...."

Point 1 is patently false. Please provide some evidence. The fact is that the mental health industry is expanding with more licensed professionals than ever.

Point 3 is also false. There are some big banks attracted to the industry because of the guaranteed cash flow. Since the parents pay up front, they do not have to hassle with HMOs or insurance companies that place limits on what they will pay for and demand itemized documentation. HMOs and Insurance companies do not pay for these programs because they lack the basic billing processes and detailed accountabilty of treatments that are required. In many HMOs, a therapist is required to provide a diagnosis, a treatment plan, and outline the number of sesssions required. Once those sessions are over and the therapist/patient feel more is needed this must be justified all over again to the HMO.

Point 8. The government is not that proactive. They tend only to get involved when constituents complain loudly enough that they have no choice.
 
Point 2. Let's look at smoking. The courts stepped in and made it okay to sue the tobacco companies for the illness they caused. Local and state laws have pretty much banned smoking in public places (at least here in NY/NJ). There are laws against sales and advertising to minors. The taxes are so high that the price of cigarettes alone is reason enough to quit. In other words, they working pretty hard to shut down this industry.

[AtomicAnt]

On 2005-10-20 13:56:00, Dolphin wrote:

"Sounds to me like another misquote...Ken said what???



Anyone that reads newspapers and magazines or watches news reports can see that it's all about selling stories, not about the truth.  Too bad.  Many reporters could make a huge impact in more positive ways than writing stories that could eventually kill teens beceause the parents believed the crap the reporters wrote and didn't get effective help.



My opinion of the ?These people who want to stop all the progress because they have all the answers are wackos. They are just out of control,? Kay said."... is:  He wasn't saying that all the doctors, etc, were wackos. I read it as he was saying the ones that don't know the truth are just blindly believing reports like ISAC, or other slam sights (like this one) and not talking with even a few of the hundreds of families that had positive results. All they want to do is save their drug prescribing practices...



 If they put out a message to these families, they would be happy to talk and Not the ones handpicked by Ken Kay or other program executives.     "

He said exactly what he said. You are only making an attempt at damage control. The fact is the man lost his cool and said something stupid. He should be put into OP for that.

[TheWho]

On 2005-10-22 07:48:00, AtomicAnt wrote:

"

On 2005-10-20 15:16:00, Anonymous wrote:


"Who is fooling who?  


1.   The mental health industry has been shrinking (no pun intended) for decades in part due to medications and fix all drugs (Prozac etc.) which you can get from your primary MD.  Do you think they want to jump in and shut everything down?  No way, they want oversight, to put there controls in, do control studies, look at how many kids do well how many fail.  Improve the system and create jobs for their field.  


2.   The government on the other hand isn?t going to get involved to shut things down either.  That has never happened once (look at smoking) They want regulation they want a piece of it.  They aren?t going to spend tax payers dollars to shut things down.  The parents will send their kids off shore.


3.  These private schools couldn?t get a loan from a bank to by a paint brush.  It is all private money.  The banks dont want to get involved because it is too risky, someone could sue and shut the whole school down.  So once the feds regulate and put the "Good housekeeping seal" on some of these places, the banks will get loan guarantees and start lending these schools money so they can expand.


4.  If the Feds guarantee the loans they are going to want the schools to accept low income kids.


5.  If the feds and mental health people see a benefit after monitoring these schools for a few years BCBS and other insurers and the like will be forced to consider paying a portion if deemed necessary by a school or doctor.


6.  The more schools that open the lower the price will get and the more affordable it will become for middle income families (thats the target audience) Right now there is a need but the private schools are too expensive for most.


7. Some of the lower end schools like I have heard about str8, seed etc.  will probably go under and some of the higher end school will have to offer something special to stay in buisness but the majority will grow and thrive.


8.  If people are mortgaging their houses and future to purchase somethign and it continues to grow the government is going to step in and try to get their shre thru regulation etc.





Do you really think all this is happening so they can shut an industry down?


How many think the teen help industry will be gone in 10 years, raise your hands...."

Point 1 is patently false. Please provide some evidence. The fact is that the mental health industry is expanding with more licensed professionals than ever.



Point 3 is also false. There are some big banks attracted to the industry because of the guaranteed cash flow. Since the parents pay up front, they do not have to hassle with HMOs or insurance companies that place limits on what they will pay for and demand itemized documentation. HMOs and Insurance companies do not pay for these programs because they lack the basic billing processes and detailed accountabilty of treatments that are required. In many HMOs, a therapist is required to provide a diagnosis, a treatment plan, and outline the number of sesssions required. Once those sessions are over and the therapist/patient feel more is needed this must be justified all over again to the HMO.



Point 8. The government is not that proactive. They tend only to get involved when constituents complain loudly enough that they have no choice.

 

Point 2. Let's look at smoking. The courts stepped in and made it okay to sue the tobacco companies for the illness they caused. Local and state laws have pretty much banned smoking in public places (at least here in NY/NJ). There are laws against sales and advertising to minors. The taxes are so high that the price of cigarettes alone is reason enough to quit. In other words, they working pretty hard to shut down this industry."

Point 2:
Yes but they have known for 40 or 50 years that it is harmful but our teens still buy them.  If TBS are showing that they are ineffective or abusing children 50 years from now I would expect the same response, but it seems like a long time to react.
The response to my other points I am sorry but I dont agree.

[AtomicAnt]

Point 3 Troubled Teen Industry as big business:
 
http://www.thinkequity.com/about/articl ... 81705.html

The field began to commercialize in the mid-1990's. In 1998, the Sprout Group and Frazier Healthcare Ventures of Seattle bought the majority of Aspen, a company with a handful of programs at that time but with major plans to expand. In 2002, Warburg Pincus invested $15 million in Aspen; around the same time, the company received at least $48 million in loans from CapitalSource and Caltius Mezzanine, two companies that specialize in lending to small and midsize companies.

Investors are particularly drawn to the field because it is almost entirely supported by individual payments rather than being dependent on public financing. "I've been in the private equity business for 15 years, and I don't like to invest in companies where, with one strike of a pen, you can wipe out your business," said Nader J. Naini, a general partner with Frazier Healthcare and also the chairman of Aspen's board.

[ This Message was edited by: AtomicAnt on 2005-10-22 16:18 ]

[TheWho]

On 2005-10-22 16:15:00, AtomicAnt wrote:

"Point 3 Troubled Teen Industry as big business:

 

http://www.thinkequity.com/about/articl ... 81705.html



The field began to commercialize in the mid-1990's. In 1998, the Sprout Group and Frazier Healthcare Ventures of Seattle bought the majority of Aspen, a company with a handful of programs at that time but with major plans to expand. In 2002, Warburg Pincus invested $15 million in Aspen; around the same time, the company received at least $48 million in loans from CapitalSource and Caltius Mezzanine, two companies that specialize in lending to small and midsize companies.



Investors are particularly drawn to the field because it is almost entirely supported by individual payments rather than being dependent on public financing. "I've been in the private equity business for 15 years, and I don't like to invest in companies where, with one strike of a pen, you can wipe out your business," said Nader J. Naini, a general partner with Frazier Healthcare and also the chairman of Aspen's board.



[ This Message was edited by: AtomicAnt on 2005-10-22 16:18 ]"

Yes I agree, there is plenty of money out there but they are venture capitalists not banks.  You borrow money from a bank and make your payments on time no one will bother you.  You get money from a venture capitalist and they want a piece of the action, one of their people on the board, attend all your meetings etc, and all of a sudden you are not in control of your own destiny, I am not saying it is a bad thing.  

Its like getting a car loan from a guy who may call you up and say you cant drive your car that day because there is a big storm coming and it is too risky for him to let you, you may or may not agree but you have to comply or he may ask for his money back and if you sell you car at a profit he will want some of that too not just what you borrowed.

[katfish]

Christine,

it's kat!  It was so wonderful to meet you in DC, please e-mail me at [email protected]
 as I don't have your contact info.

best,

kat

[Antigen]

Well, yeah, but it's not just that w/ the pedegree of the funding that's rollin' in this year. And aren't there some education finance companies advertising to troubled parents on various industry websites?

Art Barker had his slice of Bobby DuPont's NIDA funding as far back as the very early `70's. This was a fulfilment of his stated objective to use public funding to spread the Synanon method accross the land. You must know, at least I hope you do, the pedegree of WWASP, CEDU, the Seed and Elan's "program", right? It's a synanon. Switch out the stage dressing; warehouse, boarding school, remote rustic campsite or some other scene. What you have left is a synanon.

When that funding was cut off, following Sam Ervin's report (yes, that Sam Ervin of Watergate fame) on the Federal Role in Behavior Modification explicitly comparing The Seed to Korean POW indoctrination, why they just went below the radar for a year or two, reincorporated under a new name and proceeded to launder their federal funding through Law Enforcement Assistance Agency.

They then proceeded to hand out ambassadorships and cabinet level appointments to their cronies who founded and ran Straight, Inc. once they'd already sacrificed their firstborn to The Seed. Not just the Semblers, either. Donald Ian MacDonald was just a local pediatrician till he put his son in the Program and landed up as Federal drug czar.

Do you (and your pals) get that? You're asking the Federal Government to regulate and legislate in an area where we're the apostates. Not saying you can't win. Just that, if you intend to win, you should brush up on the other team and their players and history.

My biggest worry about this whole thing is NOT the intentions behind it. It's that ya'll are bringing a knife to a gun fight and you're already predisposed to villainies anyone who tries to tip you off.

It is the absolute right of the state to supervise the formation of public opinion.

--Joseph Goebbels

[BuzzKill]

//My biggest worry about this whole thing is NOT the intentions behind it. It's that ya'll are bringing a knife to a gun fight and you're already predisposed to villainies anyone who tries to tip you off. //

Very good point. For my part, I don't villainies you for your  well placed caution. I know you have a point. Even so, I can't help but feel this recent attention from people who can not justly be called clowns and wackos is a good thing.

And of corse the government screws up everything it sticks its hand in. Even so - there needs to be some rules and some force behind the rules holding these kinds of places accountable.

Its a farce to pretend the paying customer (the parents) can or will hold the programs accountable - or have any meaningful detrimental effect on their cruelties.

Yes, the powers that be are responsible for a lot of the problem. One can hope, they may come to see they were wrong. One can hope, even if they don't give a ratt's ass, they might decide it is in their best interest to jump ship - the tide turning an all, like it is. One can hope.

To get the tide to turn, we need to educate a lot more people; for which we need a lot more media attention; for which we need such folks as have taken an interest lately - So - again - one can hope.

[chaking]

I can certainly understand your point of view... I, myself, have an extremely dim view of our government... But I believe what is being asked here, is not necessarily federal oversight, but money to go to individual states so that they may have the resources to "police" these programs themselves... I understand there are many ways that things could go sour very quickly, but what other option do we really have? I mean we sit here talking about these things until we're blue... But what are we aiming for? If we aren't aiming for oversight of some sort (most likely it would have to be sponsored by a state or feds) then what are we trying to do?  With the regulation comes laws... It's those "rules" that are going to need to be scrutinized... but I believe looking for oversight is really the only first step...
We can shut down all the wwasps facilities and cedu and aspen and all that... but they will pop up everyday if there aren't laws... I don't know... but I'm fully behind it, becaus ein my opinion it is the only first step...
Plus I really believe in the good nature of the people involved... and even more so, the intelligence and "know-how" that they bring to the table...

[Antigen]

On 2005-10-23 20:42:00, BuzzKill wrote:

To get the tide to turn, we need to educate a lot more people; for which we need a lot more media attention; for which we need such folks as have taken an interest lately - So - again - one can hope.

A-Men and A-Men! It takes a thousand voices to tell just one story.

Religion is a byproduct of fear. For much of human history, it may have been a necessary evil, but why was it more evil than necessary? Isn't killing people in the name of God a pretty good definition of insanity?
--Arthur C. Clarke, author

[Anonymous]

But I believe what is being asked here, is not necessarily federal oversight, but money to go to individual states so that they may have the resources to "police" these programs themselves.

Yeah, I am sure Utah will take its "policing" duties very seriously.   :roll:

[Anonymous]

***I believe what is being asked here, is not necessarily federal oversight, but money to go to individual states so that they may have the resources to "police" these programs themselves... I understand there are many ways that things could go sour very quickly, but what other option do we really have? I mean we sit here talking about these things until we're blue... But what are we aiming for? If we aren't aiming for oversight of some sort (most likely it would have to be sponsored by a state or feds) then what are we trying to do? With the regulation comes laws... It's those "rules" that are going to need to be scrutinized... but I believe looking for oversight is really the only first step...

Playing Devil's Advocate for a moment, the states that currently have regulations in place are not doing such a good job enforcing the rules that already exist, according to the Inspector General.
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... 87&forum=9
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#24989

All states have an ICPC office, which has the potential to stop many out-of-state placements, but are not enforcing that federal law. Why?
There are thousands of kids in programs who were placed in violation. Who will require each state to enforce and each program to comply?
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#55532
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#51700

What is the solution to this issue? Who is going to provide oversight for Licensing, ICPC Offices, Attorney General, etal, to ensure they are doing their jobs?

To quote Ken Stettler (Utah Licensing), "we're reactive, not proactive". Each state with regulations for childcaring institutions will define which facilities require a license to operate. When a program side-steps regs by stating they are a boarding school, I feel it's the state's job to require the facility to provide documentation that would prove they are not housing teens 24/7/365 and providing 'therapy'. Do they care? Apparently not. They take the program's word for it until there is a tragedy. Then they present themselves to the public as being ignorant and/or powerless to require the facility to come under their scrutiny.

There are so many agencies along the the way that could do more to protect teens from the industry. They don't. Why? And how do you (ASTART) see that changing?
More money to states? Really? How will that money be used?
States would have an abundance of operating funds if they enforced regulations and fined the maverick programs for operating without a license. Some stating fines as high as $500 per day.
What's the 'new' consequence going to be for states that aren't doing their job? How will anyone 'force' these folks to do the right thing?

[katfish]

What do you all suggest be done?

[Anonymous]

Good question, Kat. What the hell is the answer? What can we all do to help the kids who are locked up in hell-holes as we speak? They're in there wishing we were out here doing something to help them. It's our responsiblity to figure out what the hell it is that we can do to help them. Please, if anyone has suggestions, please share them here. As Ginger pointed out, many of us have good hearts and our intentions are good. We want and need to do something to help. We want to do what will be most effective. We all need to put our heads together to figure out what we can do.

I know many of you are not in favor of the proposed legislation, that you aren't in support of what Alison Pinto is doing. So, if that's the case, what do you suggest? I thought that at least having some legislation in place would be better than what we have now.