note to Jupiter Survivor

[marcwordsmith]

Hey Jupiter,

I was moved by what you wrote in the opening post on your thread, and I just want to say a couple of things in response to that posting.

First, you no longer need validation from Seed staff about what your experience was, or about what your reality was. When you were in the Seed, you needed staff and your oldcomer to "validate" your reality because they had physical dominion over you. But that authority was circumstantial; it wasn't based on any superior intellectual or moral development. Sometimes it's hard to dethrone the authority figures in our heads, the people who once had control over us, whether they were parents or teachers or Seed staff. Even when we know better, a strong emotional imprint may linger concerning authority figures that have effected us. But at least we can be aware that those feelings are not rational. Former Seed staff members have their own problems now, as they did then. They are not, and they never were, oracles to tell us which of our emotions and perceptions are real.

I also want to say that the story about your big Navy brother who offered to bust you out of the Seed if you would "just say the word" really touched me deeply. But, if I may be so presumptuous, I have a different interpretation of that story. (I know, I know; I have no right to interpret your reality either! This is just a theory!) You say you were "programmed" at that point to tell him you "needed" the Seed. I think that may be true as far as it goes; we were all a little programmed not to say anything that might betray our lack of appreciation for the wonderful Seed.

At the same time though, here's what I think was going on even underneath that "programming."

Tough as your brother was, I doubt he could have busted you out of there. The Seed thrived on that kind of physical high drama, and he was vastly outnumbered in that situation. So what was more likely to have happened, if you had "given him the word," is that your brother would have been physically, painfully subdued by several Seed staffers and oldcomers ganging up on him, and he might have faced legal charges that would have gotten him into trouble. (And how sickeningly horrible might it have been if he'd wound up being sentenced to the Seed!) And you, Jupiter, would have been started over, with new levels of hostility and retribution directed toward you.

So what may have looked and felt like weakness on your part in that situation was actually a kind of heroism. Your brother, who adored you, couldn't stand to see you suffering and he would have done anything to get you out of there. But you didn't want him to have to suffer either, especially if it was to no avail. You had no glamorous choices in that situation. You made an unselfish decision, sickening as it was.

[GregFL]

You are so right Marc.

I had a similar circumstance and also said no..here is what happened to me.

After my mother's attempt to get me out of the seed failed because of the Judge's lie about me admitting to needing the seed in open court, my mom and her husband would drive the 6 plus hours one way to the seed from Ft Lauderdale for open meetings and of course, not be allowed to talk to us and be belittled, humiliated  and yelled at in the parking lot by the other seed loyal parents.  Then they would turn around and drive back.  They would hand the Mike to my mom at open meeting and she would try to smile, then just usually break down and cry.  After open meeting her and her husband would turn around and drive back to Ft Lauderdale, arriving often just in time to get dressed to go to work. It was  tiring, frustrating, humiliating and emotionally devestating for my mother, who was not emotionally equipped to handle such trauma.

After about a month I got permission to see my mother "alone" which involved going to the edge of the parking lot with her,my sister, and her husband and standing by her car. The open meeting was still going on inside.  

My step father, a very quiet guy that had recently had a throat operation, leaned over to me and said "greg, we can make a run for it right now, you just have to get in the car".

Now, I would have loved to go but all the circumstances flashed into my mind. Was this a set up? Was a squad car hovering just outta site? Staff members watching? I had seen kids escape and the police bring them back without court orders. I knew the ramifications of getting caught and I knew the chief of police and the judge's kids were all sitting right over THERE in group.

I smiled at my step father and told him, "no thanks".

[marcwordsmith]

A similar thing happened to me as well, Greg.

My sister escaped from the Seed on her third day, and as luck would have it, a kindly person who picked her up hitchhiking drove her to a benign halfway house for girls in Perrine. And at first, when the staff at the halfway house contacted my parents, my parents agreed to let my sister stay there. (Later they tried to bring her forcibly to the Seed through the courts, but failed. That's another story.)

Anyway, the Seed, upon hearing that my parents were leaving my sister to "another rehab", told my mom she'd have to take me out of the program too. So, on my seventh or eighth day, I was called out of the group and into the intake office, where my mom was throwing a fit and screaming at all the staff members. She got right in Art's face (among others). The gist of what she was shouting was something like "I will continue to crusade for your program, because your program is the best one, but I will go to every newspaper and tell them that you're forcing my son out!"

The Seed relented and kept me. But Susie Barker (whom I think of with great fondness to this day and I hope she is well and happy wherever she is) was worried about me, because she perceived that my mom was a little nuts. So after I was returned to the group, Susie B. called me out again to talk with me and "make sure I was all right." She was a very sweet young woman! At that point, I knew not to say too strongly that the Seed was not appropriate for me, but I did make my case. I told her that though I had used pot a few times, drugs were not really my thing, I was a good student, and I had a straight attitude, and though the Seed was obviously a terrific place and oh, I had learned a lot just by being there a week, I did not belong there. And as for my mom, I knew how to deal with her; I'd been handling her and her histrionics my whole life. Susie was sweet but firm; she indicated that she thought I should stay in the group all the same, because I had tried pot. But there was also something different, something humane going on with her that I hadn't encountered before in the Seed with my oldcomer or staff.

So the next day, Susie pulled me out of group again and said, "I would like to you talk with Dr. K--" (was it Kaiser? I only remember his name started with a K) This guy, the "Seed psychiatrist" politely told me to have a seat and began asking me questions about my life for five minutes or so in a rambling sort of way. At one point I leaned across the desk a little and saw that he was jotting down all my answers in some kind of shorthand on a big note pad. At this point he looked up at me with a kind of embarrassed sickly smile that I could not interpret. And he asked, "Well Marc, supposing I were to give you the choice, right now, to go home or stay, what would you do?"

And of course I had the same reaction you did, Greg. Was this a trap? He was asking a hypothetical question. I didn't hear it as an actual offer. I didn't want to appear too enthusiastic about leaving the Seed. The honest answer was "GOD YES PLEASE!" But what passed my lips was, "I don't know . . ."

So he smiled again and said, "I think you should stick with it," and that was that.

A few minutes later, in the group, it dawned on me that he had really been offering me a chance, and my head swam in self-disgust and horror.

[GregFL]

How old were you Marc?

And, how many remember them standing kids up and asking them, Do you think you need to be here? And then when they gave a reasoned explanation as to why they didn't need the seed, they got chewed up, spit out, cursed out and maybe even thrown back on the front row.

There was ALWAYS a correct answer to those loaded questions, and you could never know what direction any question was coming from, so reciting the seed approved answer was always the "smart" choice for us little powerless kids.

That is, we were powerless over the group, not drugs..

That explanation is for the steppers reading.

 :grin:

[marcwordsmith]

Greg, I was 14.
Definitely younger than most Seedlings but there were also plenty of other 14 year olds, a smattering of 13 year olds, and at least one 12 year old boy.

[Jupiter Survivor]

Thanks Marc, I do  agree with you.  I  do realize I don't need to be validated, I lived way too many years trying to please people who couldn't be pleased.  It's a little strange but when reading the threads part of me can still feel the hurt and confusion of that very scared and naive kid, even though it's 30 years (damn I am old). I never talked to anyone about the Seed until the past year or so.  Reading the thread brings back a lot that I had completely blocked out.
 
As far as my brother Ric....lol  He could have and would have,  I just didn't know that at the open meeting.   He later told me he knew where I lived and my schedule and had 2 buddies on call (he told me this on his deathbed).  Like you said, at the meeting I was scared of the staff and the power the Seed had. I also think part of me wanted my big brother to be proud of me (yeah I know that sounds weird  proud of being a Seedling), I was too young to know he already was.  He stood by me with a few bad choices, but they were my choices and that is what mattered to him.  He believed in letting people make mistakes and learning from them. He would never force his view on someone else, especially someone weaker.  I never told him about the molestation, because I have no doubt certain family members would disappear. "Secrets and skeletons" were kept tightly under lock and key in my family. He felt much regret later because he was gone (Navy) for 8 years and because of that we only saw him maybe 2 x's a year. He did know about being committed against his will.....in the late 60's it was called the draft.  
Thanks again Marc, I am ok and have dealt with the issues of my past.  My life is good and I am grateful in a sense of what I have went thorough, since that is made me who I am today...(unless I read to many threads here...lol)
Beauty from ashes......

[marcwordsmith]

Hey Jupiter,

I so know what you mean about feeling like a well-adjusted, happy and successful adult until I start reading through some of these threads and then I find myself in an emotional time warp. Are you old enough to remember the show "The Time Tunnel" that was on TV for a while in the late 60s? Every time the two main characters went to a different point in time, they would go into the time tunnel and it swirled them in like a whirlpool. They'd spin round and round in the tunnel and then disappear into another time.

I think the whirlpool metaphor is a good one for my experience of this web site. But I'm also grateful for it! I think, insofar as I come here to chat and post and read, it's all part of the healing I STILL have left to do and can't deny (though the "together" adult in me would prefer to deny it sometimes).

It's a peculiar paradox. We've outgrown our past but it remains inside us too.

[GregFL]

My personal experience is that yes, I had overcome my problems that I associated with the seed. Hell, I went into therapy around the time of my divorce and only barely touched on it and only because my ex tipped off the therapist that I had been thru it and thought it was a key to some of my issues.

Later, when I took it all out and examined it more thoroughly, got some validation for some of the things I privately held inside and thought were mine and mine alone, only then was I able to really heal the anger. Up until then it was just something I basically buried.

I would have been fine had I kept it buried and never examined this stuff from my childhood, but I am glad I have and do because I think it has improved me as a more well rounded individual, a better adjusted person, and it has helped me understand my parents better as well, especially my mother and her husband.

[Jupiter Survivor]

"We've outgrown our past but it remains inside us too"  

So very true!  I have dealt with most of it, but like you said it is still there inside and I know as time goes on, I will have to deal with it further.  I will try to channel that anger into something positive.  

I know from my experience it has made me very skeptical of everything, which is a very good thing.  It has not only saved me money, it saved my sanity....lol  

There are always at least 2 sides to every story.  You can have 100 people witness an event and come up with 100 different accounts.  The funny things is, no one is really wrong, it is just a matter of perspective. What John (and others) see in the Seed is entirely for his and his alone perspective.  If he was sitting on the front row in my place, it would be totally different.  I would assume (more like hope) that John would be mature enough with life experiences that he could put himself in another's shoes and see the different sides.  I guess to do that would make it a little hard to sleep at night, who knows.  

Also, Greg....don't feed the trolls.  It takes away the legitimacy of this site.  I am very disappointed by so many posts. The bickering back and forth.   While I understand the anger and frustration, it just seems pointless.

[GregFL]

Well, I take exception to something there Jupiter surviver..this forum is relatively devoid of trolls. Trolls in the sense of people just trying to disrupt. Once in a while we get it, but for the most part there aren't trolls.

We really have an emotional issue here, and we also have some people squarely in the seed camp, and then some others squarely anti-seed.  When those two mix, there is bound to be, as you describe it disapointing posts. There are also the majority here who post thoughtfull searching replys.

Feeding the trolls?

Sorry, I don't see it that way.

[marshall]

Greg, I think Jupiter is probably referring to all the Anonymous posts of late. At most sites the majority of anon posters are trolls. Here, my guess is they are mostly regular posters that want to express an opinion without revealing themselves. There are lots of pluses to being able to post anon, but some negatives too. I mentioned the guy at one site that constructed 5 alternate idenities and posted under them all. His purpose seemed to be to multiply his influence there...make it seem there were large numbers of posters that agreed with him or shared his pov. Interestingly, it was a religous board and the guy is the leader of a small cult. It also makes it more difficult to maintain the flow of dialogue when there's lots of anons. Anons don't have to worry about being consistent from one post to the next either.

[Anonymous]

But doesn't that only apply to porn sites.

[GregFL]

On 2005-10-02 09:34:00, marshall wrote:

"Greg, I think Jupiter is probably referring to all the Anonymous posts of late. At most sites the majority of anon posters are trolls. Here, my guess is they are mostly regular posters that want to express an opinion without revealing themselves.

You woulda guessed right.

 :grin:

[GregFL]

I mentioned the guy at one site that constructed 5 alternate idenities and posted under them all. His purpose seemed to be to multiply his influence there...make it seem there were large numbers of posters that agreed with him or shared his pov.

We have had damn little of that here, I can assure you.

Not none,but very little.

[Jupiter Survivor]

Greg,

Marshall was right.  I am referring to the Anonymous post of late.  They seem to have started up more after John U came on board.  Makes one wonder........
 
Jupiter Survivor