Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform > The Seed Discussion Forum
Dear Art,
Ft. Lauderdale:
Walt- thank you for your post. Thank you for putting it into a perspective I can understand and relate too. (I tried to use another word other than "relate" but its the right word to use)
:grin:
You see I was a little more pushy than you were or a little more abrupt & abrasive. I may have gotten knocked down a few times but I guess I basically always got what I wanted to a certain degree.
One question, didn't you go to college to become a Respiratory Therapist ( I bet you have an Heimlich Maneuver story or two to tell)
Walter you are the best my friend.
Antigen:
Yup, I think we all can agree, Walter rocks!. The Program works on the same basic principles as any other social group. It relies on natural social reflexes to effect control. And It's the coercion, primarily, that makes it awful. That and an (often extreme) imbalance of power.
As a mother, I had near total power of my kids when they were little. They needed me for every little need. The difference is that I needed them just as much; no other kid would do, my kid had to be happy and healthy in order for me to be happy and healthy.
TOUGHLOVE directly contradicts that. According to that doctrine, parents are supposed to pretend (fake it till ya make it) that they don't give a flip how the kid is feeling, their happiness is not tied to the kid's happiness. And any dissent from the Program dogma is to be harshly condemned as manipulation.
The trouble I have w/ the troubled parent industry (of which the Seed was just one tiny little componant) is that it's dogma has been broadly adopted as public policy.
Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves
--Ronald Reagan
--- End quote ---
cleveland:
Ginger,
You are so right about power. Some of it is how you perceive the situation; some of it is force or violence, or the threat of those things.
I think the problem is when you have one group (the 'in' group) lording it over the 'out' group. That sure happened in Jr. High and also at the Seed, and happens to me sometimes today. It's complicated by my self-perception too. If I am feeling 'out' I will be less assertive, more subservient, shyer, whatever. If I am feeling 'in' I will be louder, funnier, more charming, and maybe mean. It certainly plays a role in family dynamics, race relations, politics, and social status.
Everybody probably remembers the famous experiment where volunteers thought they were shocking other people as part of an experiment? Nice middle class people would turn up the voltage because a man with a clipboard and a white jacket told them they should do it. 90% percent of more did it. (I think it was the Stanley Milgram experiment. They weren't really shocking people, but they thought they were.) Anyway, this has been used to show how nice, ordinary people can oppress others if the social dynamics are right.
I think we all need to keep in mind that everyone is susceptible to oppressing others, given the right circumstances. And we might even feel that it is the 'right' thing to do, or that we are 'only trying to help', or that 'this is for your own good.' And because our self-esteem is tied up in thinking we are right, it can be really hard to see ourselves as oppressors. But, we all do it, to some degree or another.
So, if you take the approach, 'the ends justifies the means,' all kinds of terrible things can happen. And very nice people can justify doing these things too (Hello Betty Sembler?)
Walter
Oh and PS Lauderdale; I went to a temporary trade school, sponsored by Broward General, to get certified in Respiratory Therapy. I think it only lasted for two years before they closed it down. It wasn't college, but it was authorized to issue certificates.
Antigen:
--- Quote ---On 2005-10-07 10:10:00, cleveland wrote:
Anyway, this has been used to show how nice, ordinary people can oppress others if the social dynamics are right.
--- End quote ---
Yes! Exactly that. Stop me if you've read this, I know I've told this story before. I'll never forget where I was and what I was doing the moment ATF started firing on the Waco compound. I was in an office full of mostly very young, hopefully up-and-coming communications professionals. My desk was right next to the break room. I started noticing an unusually large number of them all fixated on the tv. Then they started cheering like the home team just scored a winning touchdown in the Super Bowl. So I stopped working (it was useless, the whole department.... whole company, I think, had sort of wandered off the job) and asked what was going on.
I just couldn't fucking believe it! Not that our federal government had started fire bombing a little cult compound, that was sort of predictable given the circumstances. But these people's reaction to it! These were, as I've said, mostly young middle class people. Lot of college students; mostly intelligent, ambitious, nice people who pitched in for office birthday parties and such. These were genuinely nice people cheering over little kids getting torched for the entertainment of the viewing audience.
I think I spent all of my political currency (I had been supervisor of the transcription department) by opening my mouth. I couldn't help it, though, and I don't really regret it. I think I did make a couple of dozen people think that day.
That is the nature of group mentality. But it only can get really out of hand and destructive if no one opens their mouths or their minds and questions the direction the mob is headed.
Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die
-- Malachy McCourt
--- End quote ---
Ft. Lauderdale:
Exactly-
Believe me I never thought I would agree with you but here we go. I did always have a big mouth probably my Aries birth right. Anyway for whatever reason, I always basicly did what I wanted and I did right by others at the same time. I never really stepped on two many toes but did butt quite a few heads. I remember Lybbi commenting to someone and saying "I know he (meaning me) always somehow comes out smelling like a rose. She did not like me at all for the last 2 or 3 years. Thats because I was always at some odds with her husband. Thats besides the point. I really did through out the years say what I thought about whatever I wanted. I don't mean that in a cocky selfish way. I really said how I felt about anything. Sometimes I had alot of people Peering at me and it may have been uncomfortable at times but I did what I thought was right. But you see I was practicing what I learned and It did work. You see I really am grateful for the opportunities that I had, and I really did try to put my heart into them. That is why I can defend what I defend. I loved the Seed it loved me back.
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