Nonconformist--these men were never charged because the state decided these men weren't at fault. Had the state investigators decided the staff was responsible, then a trial most certainly would have taken place.
Overlordd-- yes, it sure has been awhile. Honestly, I thought you had given up; glad to see you're in for a fight--I missed all your typos and spelling errors (grab a dictionary, dude. You make such blatant and simple errors, it makes me question your intelligence quite honestly!!) Don't worry, mine will be equally as through here.
On the contrary, I could care less of my father's or family's reputation from our association with ABR. I am here because I believe the intentions of the program was completely honorable and positive. Only ridiculous message boards and biased articles have ruined these children's second chance. And correction--I have no murderer in my family. As I have stated before, my father quit ABR before Nic's death even occurred. Don't create yourself a slippery slope here. Just because he worked there in the past, don't assume (but then again, that's all you all ever do. That's what happens when you make comments without knowing the facts, in case you didn't know.) he wasn't in any way apart of this situtation. You don't want to be apart of my family because we enstill values and morals and that's wrong in your eyes. I'm sorry to hear this and I'm sorry your have no ethics. To imagine you are also serving our country?? This quite honestly frightens me. Maybe those Iraqis are just like these boys and maybe all they need is a little therapy and some pills, right?? You haven't heard a single thing of love from me? How about when I said I minister to under-priviledged children in efforts to share the good news of Christ with them and teach them to make positive life choices? I think you are just hearing what you want to hear, and that's fine, but this makes you biased. As you all are. And again, I am not defending my father in any way here. I believe I have stuck to defending ABR as a program here and have done a good job at leaving him out for the most part. I have left my relationship's status with father in his hands. I have tried and it is up to him now to choose whether he wishes to be apart of my life now. This message board is in no way an attempt to reconcile with him. He has no idea it even exists. But think what you want to believe (that's how it's accurately spelt by the way!) in your delusional little fantasy land you have created for yourself where no teenage boys can do wrong and where everyone can have a trial by jury.
You see you would be ashamed to share with your daughter and her class about such programs if you were a worker because you wouldn't raise your children with any morals or values, such as respect or honor or trustworthiness or confidence. OverLordd, you say you assumed that I was a son because you wouldn't want your daughter to know such programs existed. Correct?? So are you saying then it would acceptable for your son to know about such "hatred" existed?? Now who is full of double standards??
And I believe I have beaten this topic a little too much, but I will repeat myself once again just because I know you only hear what you want to hear and maybe by saying it once again you'll fnally choose to listen. Granting everyone a trial by jury is completely impractical. It costs too much and would severely back up our justice system to where a pettey crime would take months (perhaps years) to reach a judge. Practicality is extremely important in our justice system and your idea simply wouldn't work.
And concerning you asking for examples of my good works--frankly that is none of your concern. God knows my heart and He knows the level of my spirituality and He is the one that will ultimately allow me into the kingdom of Heaven. But as I have said, I minister to underpriviledged children, I attend church, I study my Bible, I pray and I tell others about Him. The only way I think ABR could have improved is if they had incorporated the good news of Jesus Christ in their program. But I am glad to say that several staff members from ABR have gone on to create their own programs which do just that. And I'm sure you're all glad to hear that these "abusive" staff members are still reaching these troubled teens. You know why? Because they care. I very much disagree with you OverLordd on your opinion that I can be denied eternity in Heaven because I support a program which tried to turn around lost individuals. I have not been blasphemous to God or Christianity at all here. I do believe that we are to love one another but we are also supposed to point out to others when they have done wrong and help guide them to the correct path. But ya know what? And the Bible says not to associate with unblievers as friends, and criminals are 99% of the time unbelievers-just like you said their actions don't defend the spirituality if they are. God definitely loves all, even sinners, but that doesn't mean we all get to experience the rewards and benefits of being born-again. The ones who choose not accept Him will face the punishment in Hell for all of eternity. And you know what, criminals will also have to face some punishment here on earth also. And I am totally glad you will not be in charge of who's entered into Heaven-you would probably allow these "poor, innocent, lost souls who didn't know better" and not force them to face any sort of punishment. I am grateful we have a God who not only grants us rewards, but also punishments. We all could learn this from him.
I am showing such hatred and lack of love, but you are calling me a "discusting peice of meat"!! Okay, first of all, it's spelt: disgusing piece of meat! And secondly, I am the cruel one, yet I do my very hardest from name calling or attacking your personal lives and religious beliefs. Yet this is all you do. OverLordd, at least you have a little arguement to throw back at me but you do it just as much as everyone else. You sit here and name call and attack people, yet I am the mean and cruel one here and I am the one to be denied into Heaven. You also say I am full of double standards, yet you all are the actual ones doing it. I can't call these teens criminals when most have done crimes throughout their entire lives and can be deemed "career criminals" but you can sit here and call another brother and sister in Christ a "disgusting piece of meat"?? Get real and open up your eyes. Maybe you should practice what you preach a little.
And these criminals weren't screwed over and I know that. They weren't just arrested off the streets and thrown in jail. They went before a judge to present their case, they were given an attorney if they could not afford one themselves and yes, some even were in court before a jury to plead their case. So go ahead and play your little violin for these boys and think they were screwed over. And in fact, I urge you to type up a bill, OverLordd, stating that all court cases regarding criminal cases or involving a crimes deserves a trial jury. Present that to your Congressman and allow him to present it to Congress (that is if you receive all the signatures required) and see how many votes it receives in each branch. I can guarentee it wouldn't pass. Impractical, simple as that. While it may seen like the fairest approach-it is simply impractical. SO please, by all means begin typing and when your bill (please name it the OverLordd bill, as it seems most appropriate) is presented in Congress, please inform me so that I may contact my Congressman and ask to be allowed to speak against such bill. Are you typing yet?? Why not, afraid of its failure and rejection?
I gain believe that we all will face a SEPARATE judgment one day from God. It is up to our federal, state, and local government to punish its citizens here on Earth while God will be in charge of handling his children on Judgment Day. If the government finds not to press charges or finds somenone innocent then all we can do is leave it up to God.
And my father didn't break the law concerning our relationship--the judge had suggested court appointed counseling for the both of us and my father declined the option. It wasn't mandatory and the judge choose not to force him to go so you know what?? That's fine with me, I know he will face the day when he will have to pay for that decision.
Oh and by the way, if manslaughter was truely considered murder then it would be called murder. There are different degrees of such a crime. If it was considered murder then why isn't it "Fourht-degree murder-for example"?? So you are trying to explain to me that when one is charged with manslaughter when a person dies in a car accident that they were involved in that they had every intent of murdering them?? I beg to differ.
And when have I shown hatred for my fellow man?? I show the need for punishment for one's actions here is all. And correction--I have never said "Nic got what he deserved". Again, you are creating yourself a slippery slope here. (If you don't know what that means, look it up-and learn to spell those common mispelled words of yours while you're at it.) I have only said it was Nic's choices that landed him at ABR along with his mother's failure to correctly raise her son.
And about deciding my spiritual condition--you might want to be careful. You are showing some traits of an unbeliever here as well. It is not your place to judge me and it is not your place to say I am not a Chrisitian-that is between me and God. Just because I believe in punishment for actions and fight for a case that I believe was not in fact murder doesn't make me an unbeliever. I am glad I am not a modern liberal as yourself and believe in medications or therapy as alternatives. Different beliefs such such petty topics doesn't mean I haven't accepted Christ. I also agree with you that everyone can be forgiven, including criminals. And I believe they can turn their lives around and make the right choices but the key thing is that they must ASK to be forgiven first. And in fact, I would definitely forgive such youth but once they are forgiven they must attempt to make the right choices and do what is right. That doesn't mean they will be perfect, but that means they are forgiven for their past mistakes and are given a second chance. I do love people, OverLordd, I just don't feel sympathy and pity for our criminal society. It was their choices and their actions. I do love people, but I also show what you may call "tough love" for those who make the wrong choices. They have lost their entitled trust and must earn that trust which they have lost back. Simple as that. But just because I believe differently as you do, doesn't mean I am damned to Hell as you may wish. Who has made you God and made you perfect to think that you are the only one entitled to be correct and whoever thinks differently than you is wrong?? [ This Message was edited by: DAUGHTER on 2005-10-09 00:53 ][ This Message was edited by: DAUGHTER on 2005-10-09 00:56 ]