Author Topic: Why Did YOU Stay Away?  (Read 10815 times)

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Offline cleveland

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Why Did YOU Stay Away?
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2005, 01:05:00 PM »
John,

I will confirm that I too, started to form what could have been wonderful friendships at the Seed. I will also note that the Seed encouraged me to reveal parts of myself that had been hidden by the need I felt to 'be cool' as a typically insecure kid. Singing songs, doing the soft shoe, and even the hokey-pokey blew my 'image' and I could be silly and goofy and have fun. These things provide the basis for the bond I feel with other ex-Seedlings Lauderdale, 80s Guy, Wtaylor and a few others who post here.

The flipside of that was that the Seed then required me (via peer pressure) to develop a Seed-acceptable 'image' and hide OTHER parts of myself - including creativity, ambition, independence, healthy sexual relationships - and that led me to leave.

I know that you and perhaps some others posting here might minimize those things or say it wasn't that way, at least when you were there, but this is true - dating, jobs, recreation, friendships and living arrangements were all planned or approved by Art and senior staff. And this was for senior oldcomers and newcomers alike, although high-status (read: people Art liked) people had a tiny bit more freedom.

You can say that this was 'necessary' for a variety of reasons, but many of us
Seedlings eventually rebelled and left, and for those that stayed, the whole thing blew up in their faces. There was way too much control and rigidity, and I had to be just as big a phoney in some ways at the Seed as I was before. Parts of the image where better but it still was fake. And for me, unhealthy.

By the way, there was now way for me to live there and 'take what I wanted and leave the rest' - that wasn't an option. I was either a total Seed kid or not - and by total I mean the whole thing - never questioning staff, not associating with anyone not involved with the Seed, not going to school, dating or trying a new career unless staff approved (and for me, staff didn't approve - those things I could do only after I left).

For seven years I did hold these things down within myself, thinking that I was one of the 'chosen few' who would lead 'Art's army' and that if I was humble and obediant I would be 'a part of the solution,' even if it meant that we could 'only help one kid' it would all be worth it. Thinking about myself or my needs was 'selfish' or just 'getting into my head' and thinking for myself was being an 'intellectual asshole.' How many times did I say to myself, I don't like this but - 'ours is not to question why, ours is but to do or die.'?

So my life as a celebate, lonely, insecure, uneducated, unhappy but loyal seedling continued for those long years, and why? Because I was an confused adolescent who had smoked pot probably 20 times? Because I came from a disfunctional family and I was looking to belong to something? Because Art and staff told me so?

No disrespect to you, Lauderdale, Thom, Richard, Robin or others who are loyal to the dream of the Seed, but I feel I must question it and everything that I accepted as dogma that came out of it, either AA derived or whatever. Those tools can be used to alter someones reality, and don't we all know some 12 steppers who are addicted to meetings? Nothing wrong with that, (or booze or pot, as far as I'm concerned) as long as it doesn't interfere with your ability to have a happy, productive, honest life. And everyone has to figure that out for themselves.

Best,

Walter

PS - Here's a quote that says it well: "Power is actualized only where word and deed have not parted company, where words are not empty and deeds not brutal, where words are not used to veil intentions but to disclose realities, and deeds are not used to violate and destroy but to establish relations and create new realities." Hannah Arendt
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Offline GregFL

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Why Did YOU Stay Away?
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2005, 12:03:00 AM »
Quote
On 2005-09-26 10:05:00, cleveland wrote:

 and don't we all know some 12 steppers who are addicted to meetings?



Well, yeah.  Thom Mcnulty for one....
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Offline Thom

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« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2005, 04:15:00 AM »
Quote
On 2005-09-26 21:03:00, GregFL wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-09-26 10:05:00, cleveland wrote:


 and don't we all know some 12 steppers who are addicted to meetings?






Well, yeah.  Thom Mcnulty for one....

"

I've been addicted to far worse things, my friend
                    OR
Who are you to judge how i choose to worship?
We all enjoy freedom of religion here in the USA.
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2005, 05:20:00 AM »
Hey, you can worship in twelve step meetings all you want Thom. I support your right to independently choose to do so, on your own free will.

Doesn't mean I won't call bullshit on it tho, and it doesn't mean I won't call out the violation of basic human rights when people are coerced into your religion, not to mention the violation of the constitution of the united states of america.

Then we get off into the subject when the twelve steps (or some of them) are mixed with coercive thought control and the lock down of non addicted individuals against their will....
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Offline cleveland

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« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2005, 10:11:00 AM »
I am all for people going to AA or other 12 step groups if they find fellowship there, but to me it's all 'a bunch of hooey' -  no different from most other religions in that respect. But it should be a choice to go, and to leave, and to question all of those slogans.

By the way, Ann Lamott is a terrific auther and AA-er who I respect (Bird by Bird, Operation Instructions), also Augustin Burroughs (Dry, Running with Scissors). I read them and I see what they get out of it, but for me I just can't get over the Oxford Group quaksterism origins of all of that (see my posts here on this and read the Agent Orange website to find out about this Seed-like group circa 1920!). But maybe you want to eat Christ's body, chant, do a sufi dance, or read Dianetics, too...whatever! It's still all a bunch of hooey to me!

Walter[ This Message was edited by: cleveland on 2005-09-27 07:14 ][ This Message was edited by: cleveland on 2005-09-27 07:16 ][ This Message was edited by: cleveland on 2005-09-27 07:16 ]
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Offline Anonymous

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Why Did YOU Stay Away?
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2005, 06:50:00 PM »
Wow what a great question and some great responses.
I have not posted in a few weeks only because I have been so busy at work but, I always take a few minutes to read the posts.
I believe this question can actually go to the core or at least come close to the reason of why I post here on this site. I usually post as a Pro-Seed supported and look at my Seed years as an overall positive experience and look at that time with fond memories and great friendships that I forged during my six years at the Seed (1983-1989).  I still believe the Seed help me build a solid and well grounded foundation in which I needed to be well adjusted and have control of my life. I will admit that I only knew the Seed through my eyes. I was in my twenties and a full fledge drug addict with some serious criminal charges weighing heavy over me at the time. I did not want to question the Seed or take any risks as to put myself at the mercy of the court system. This was my primary motivating driving force at the time and I can only imagine how different what some young teenage scared kids perceptive could have been like.  
 
 I will be the first to admit that the Seed did have a dark side and the recognition of this was the primary reason why I decided to leave.  I will not blame or ever claim that the Seed imprisoned me, this I did to myself, through my lack of wanting to take responsibility for my life and for the failures in my actions before and during my stay at the Seed.

    The Seed taught valid lessons and were very sound lessons such: as self discipline, my responsibilities to those around me and my affect on the people around me, self love is proved through action, Attitude is key to one?s happiness, We make ourselves and define who we want to be, We are works in progress and I can go on and on with these lessons and these lessons are to this day what define me and make me proud of who I am and who I am becoming.

    My problem was still my own self weakness in which the power of the group manipulated and played with us as individuals or as we fit into the group. One of the first things taught at the Seed was how peer pressure dictated our actions but what was never discussed was how this same peer pressure still was used to mold us into someone else?s vision of what we should be and how we should live our lives. Sometimes I would like to believe these things were born out of good intentions not born from selfness or blind ambition. At first I could and still understand the logic of being away from the so call world but what the Seed refused to do was to allow people to truly be rejoined into a normal world.

I think Libby resented the years she put into the Seed as she watched other people walk back into a world that was not as evil as was professed. People actually survived and prospered and did not forget who they were. Libby actually told me that if someone had left the Seed I no longer needed to consider that person as my friend and I remember this sounded so wrong and cold hearted to me.  I remember during one of football games at the beach how Bob W. lost his temper with Art cause Art was pissed off that Bob?s team actually out played his team. Bob finally held back and apologized as to bear witness to all the proper chain of command in the respect that should be given. I remember thinking could this be a crack in the wall? I quickly reminded myself as to not look for any type of justification shake it off and fall back into the line.
The Seed after a while smothered me and stunted the growth I needed to do for myself on my own. On one occasion I went back to visit and heard someone  talking about how what pieces of shit we were without Art, I remember thinking how wrong this person was and decided to walk away and never come back. . Art was man not a God and I remember the hypocrisy of how people constantly gave their praises to King Art. In spite of these gut feelings I stayed and kept the façade up. Why because it was easy and convenient not fight my instilled fears of the world and not speak my mind against what I saw as unfair. In other words it was my own lack of balls to stand up and speak the awful truth I?d rather blend in and avoid any type of dangerous attention. So who?s fault was that? I can only blame my own weakness and lack of gumption to define and place myself in the position I wanted to be at. In truth I did nor want to be one of Art?s favorites because of the attention and work that would have brought down on me. In truth I settled and once I settled I stopped moving forward. I begin to feel frustration and a complete lack of progress with all the aspects of my life this sparked incidents of my infamous temper. Finally, when staff realized this because I could no longer conceal my frustrations inside of me I was polity asked to pack my bags and go home.  I could not have felt any more relief when this happened so I gladly complied and went back home to try myself out in some kind of new life.
In retrospect going home was the best thing that happened to me now I was forced to grow by really applying and testing what I stood for and how much resolve was I willing to apply. No other Seed person there to encourage me on or chew me out when I needed a kick in the pants. I got what I wanted most and that was my true absolute freedom and as I received it I discovered what a double edge sword this really was. One of the great flaws of the Seed was that it was all to willing to take you in and take care of make your decisions for you so that you could basically hide from the world at the Seed. Why the Seed did this can be debated forever.  
  I post here not scorn or judge but to look for answers so that I grow and develop as a person and as I was taught to become a better man, too bad so many of us did not recognize our own short comings and allowed them to flourish stagnating and eating away at us. For the long timers that stayed at the Seed this resulted with the implosion of the last core group leaving many people alone and devastated.
After much thought on this subject and on the reasons why I stayed and eventually left the Seed it is becoming more apparent that I always could and had control of my life. It just depended on what I wanted to do with myself and to blame the Seed or peoples manipulation of me during my stay there would only be distortion of the truth. Shit I?ll lie to someone but the one thing I can not do is lie to myself because once I start believing my own lies than I will really be walking on dangerous ground.
Did the Seed manipulate? Yes to a degree.  Was the Seed full of human flaw? Of course it was but to sit here and cry the blues about how the Seed fucked me up that would just be side stepping the issue that in truth I always was acting out of my own free will.  I stayed caused I wanted to and left because I wanted to.
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Offline Antigen

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Why Did YOU Stay Away?
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2005, 07:56:00 PM »
Great posts!

Anon, it's useful to figure out how to deal w/ any situation life hands you, regardless of your own degree of responsibility in having created it. It's just a matter of "well, here I am now, so what do I do about it?" And I think you did the healthiest thing.

But I don't think you can or should think of it as all your fault. It's not asif you're the only sucker to ever get run around by this crowd. By "this crowd" I mean those individuals we knew back when as well as all the other, similar treatment cults.

I don't think it's a distortion of the truth to blame the Seed or peoples manipulation. I think it's a valid aspect of the truth. It would be a distortion to pretend otherwise.

And I don't know where you get the idea anybody's lives are fucked up or that anybody's blaming the Seed for it. Well, actually I have a guess. I think the idea has been stated as hard fact so often around here that it's just accepted as such by some.

In my view, the stepcult has done a lot of damage to my family. To some extent, that was true before the Seed. But the Seed gave my mother a bludgeon where her dad had only the political currency in our family to provide her a snowball.

So what did I do? I did what you did. I walked away. Well, it was a little more complicated than that. I planned and executed an escape, sought help from one of my brothers, went to court and then, just one more intake interview and I was finally free!

And my life's not fucked up. In fact, I'm the only one in the family still w/ the same spouse for nearly 20 years, buying a house, going to soccer games, driving a mini van. Ok, so it does have a bumper sticker that says "Doing my part to piss off the Religious Right". But I remain a soccer mom in a mini van. And happy at it, too. I won't discuss the details, even to settle an argument, because that's personal info about my minor kids and just not appropriate for public fare.

And it's extremely relavent and worth discussing all these years later. While we have all been not discussing the bad side of things, an entire industry has grown up based on the Synanon model.

The Seed was just one little tiny part of that. Right now, politicians and business men are responding to the false perception that juvenile delenquency is steadily on the rise, threatening the future of the nation while Synanon/Stepcraft based treatment is a safe and effective cure for it. They won't even prosecute over deaths in these places most of the time. They don't find the proven cases of hog tying, rapes, medical neglect or other forms of overt child abuse anywhere near as compelling as the "teenager as brutal monster" myth. Can you believe Narconon was providing substance abuse prevention in California public highschools for years before anyone even noticed? Is that a panic response to a non-issue or what?

I think that's bass ackward and it's time those of us who have experience w/ this industry start getting the truth out.

I think a more level headed response the youth problem would be to attend a highschool or college reunion at least once in 10 years. No better remedy to the myths about kids ta day than to spend a weeking w/ everyone who knew you before, during and after your disco year.

All religions have been made by men.
--Napoleon Bonaparte, French emperor



_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
   10/80 - 10/82
Apostate 10/82 -
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2005, 11:39:00 PM »
a hard right, then an uppercut.

Two great posts back to back!

 :grin:
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Offline jgar

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« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2005, 12:16:00 PM »
During the early 80?s the group was much smaller and was divided into two basic divisions. The first group consisted of what I would refer to as the core group these people had been around for years from the early or mid 70?s?? they walked the walk and talked the talk?. The Seed was their life they professed lived breath and slept the Seed philosophy all with the underlying idealism that what was being done at the Seed was the most important thing in the world. People?s lives were being saved by the raps and by the collective example of the old comers. This group had more influence and power due to their experience and time dealing with the politics of the day to day affairs of the group. Most people in this group were the ones that remained until the end.
 
The second group consisted of the newer people who were either recent graduates or people still on their programs. People that went through the program during the 80?s usually once they graduated stuck around for a short period of time and than resumed back to their lives. In the 80?s the group was older most people were in their 20?s or 30?s and most had been around the block once or twice. Some minors still came in but they were few and far between and thank God for that, I always looked at the minors as a major pain in the ass.
   
Since the group was much smaller every one kind of fell into their niche and had their own persona that they would be known for. Some people related very well and were very articulate in the group others were the funny one?s etc. Under the pretense of helping or being part of the good to help people get their lives together was the single most important theme and this was reflected with our attitudes to be all giving, all dedicated and lead by example. For the most part  what was preached was that a job was just a method of making just enough money to be able to do the most important work and that was to save lives.  
   One thing that sticks out in my mind was how the importance of developing close bonds were stress and talked about we were one big family and any person from the Seed was considered special and treated with the up most love and respect (I always related to it as if we were kind of a secret society).  With in this however was a certain distance that was kept between the guys and the girls although we shared great friendships and love, a formal relationship had to be blessed by Staff and of course Art.  (So much for the technical aspects of the Seed).

The emotional aspects were much more complicated and with this being said in a very general and superficial way I can only explain while only able to capture very little of the emotion that I felt at the time. I find it very hard to relate to a Seed that was harsh and unbending and can only conclude that was a Seed of a bygone era. A Seed in its infancy along with a very young staff and group.  
I mostly remember being killed with love by everyone around me. A camaraderie between people I have yet to experience again. When I related in the group being showered with I love you?s. When a new comer came to live at the house how everyone pulled together to help that person out. I remember a very close nit friendship that develop between myself and my original old comers. A genuine happiness to see or spend time with someone else from the Seed. Being able to work with other people from the Seed was to me very Important. It seamed to me that people took the time to get to know me and I took time to get to know the people around me. A never ending collective of experience and knowledge to draw from for guidance and I can go on and on.
 Even though I have criticized some staff or their methodology I still liked and trusted Staff.   They did not always make the right decisions but I felt their heart was in the right place. As for Art Baker although I kept my distance I never felt he was out to use me or anyone for that matter. On many occasions he opened the door for me to be close to him and it was I who shied away.

   The reason I post these things in this particular post is to stress what made it so difficult to leave the Seed. To walk away was probably one of the most difficult decisions I ever had to make.
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2005, 02:16:00 PM »
Ok, so then why would you not stay in touch w/ all those very close, well loved and supportive friends after you left?

I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religion than it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.
--Albert Einstein, German-born American physicist

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Offline jgar

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« Reply #25 on: September 29, 2005, 05:43:00 PM »
Actually I still do with some of them, that?s how I found out about this Web site. With time people go their own ways and I lost touch. Some of the Seed people I still talk to are now on both sides of this (for lack of a better word ?argument?) and with time I also changed but the core of what I learned at the Seed grew and as I grew in strength and once I became more certain in who I was and who I wanted to be  my independence grew.
    I have posted here on many occasions talking about the good and the bad about the Seed.
One thing I was against was how certain people at the Seed or in other life situations such as religious organizations or certain groups wanted me to see the world in a very clear cut black or white perceptive and only their way would be tolerated and accepted. At this point in my life I refuse to be that regimented, controlled or bullied into a certain way of acting or thinking.  I find myself constantly questioning my beliefs and opinions and in that same spirit in which I have criticized some of the Seeds short comings I also give the Seed validity and I give due credit to the Seed for it?s positive attributes I was able to take from there.

I do not see the Seed as the absolute evil so many others on this site seam to take and I have found that in life there are much more grey areas than there are black and white situations. The point of my last post was to emphasize the emotional tie I had to the Seed and that tie did not come from a victim abuser relationship but born out of kindness and love.
   I will not post or talk here about psychological theories or books or studies and how they can relate to the Seed, I will only talk about my own observations or experiences that I had during my time there and this is where I formulate my thoughts on this matter.
   
 :smokin:
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Offline jgar

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« Reply #26 on: September 29, 2005, 06:44:00 PM »
One more thing Ginger

 :eek:  :eek: One thing that I will agree with you 100 % is how a whole Drug rehabilitation industry was born out of the available insurance money set aside for private drug treatment. How did all these 28 day programs for $ 30,000.00 a shot suddenly pop up everywhere?  This I view as both abusive and criminal.
[ This Message was edited by: jgar on 2005-09-29 15:45 ]
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2005, 07:17:00 PM »
No, Jgar, I'm not talking about former seedlings keeping in touch w/ each other. I'm talking about former seedlings keeping in touch w/ current ones. Are you saying you did that? That you left, quit going to raps, but still socialized w/ people who stayed?

It's an incredible con job when you think of it, to believe something now in exchange for life after death. Even corporations with all their reward systems don't try to make it posthumous.
--Gloria Steinam, women's rights activist

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Offline jgar

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« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2005, 09:23:00 AM »
Quotation
No, Jgar, I'm not talking about former seedlings keeping in touch w/ each other. I'm talking about former seedlings keeping in touch w/ current ones. Are you saying you did that? That you left, quit going to raps, but still socialized w/ people who stayed?


   Hey Ginger to answer your question yes and no. When I first left I called the Seed about once every 2 weeks or so and about once a month I would visit and catch a rap session. I found that this began to create internal conflicts with me and it became more apparent what a crutch the Seed had become to me. As I separated myself farther from the group and I tried to establish my independence the more infrequent my visits became and the less contact I had with the people still there until, I never returned again. Once I realized that I needed to go my own way and cut my dependence I very rarely made contact. About 10 years later when a cousin of mine was on the program he informed me that staff extended an invitation to me to go to a Seed reunion and I went. During than I reestablished some ties with people still part of the Seed this was around 2002. After that the Seed closed it?s doors and I kept certain friends from the Seed in which I still have contact with and consider some of my closest freinds.
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Offline Jupiter Survivor

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« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2005, 09:58:00 AM »
"One thing that I will agree with you 100 % is how a whole Drug rehabilitation industry was born out of the available insurance money set aside for private drug treatment. How did all these 28 day programs for $ 30,000.00 a shot suddenly pop up everywhere? This I view as both abusive and criminal."

I completely agree with you.  The rage now and for the past 15 or so years is the mental health field.  Slap your kid, who is not behaving in a adolescent behavioral institute and presto chango....4-6 weeks they are cured.   Of course, that time frame is always dictated by how long and how much the insurance company will pay.  You would not believe the kids and parents I deal with that have committed their children, basically good kids that have just had no boundaries or guidelines set by their parents.  It is absolutely heartbreaking.
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