Author Topic: Another note to John Underwood  (Read 13943 times)

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Offline Antigen

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Another note to John Underwood
« Reply #45 on: September 29, 2005, 02:35:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-09-29 06:42:00, John Underwood wrote:

Do you honestly believe we (staff) wanted these persons on the program ? Why?


Because they were there and you had control over that. If you didn't want them there, you could have refused to admit them (as you say you did me) or, at any time, asked them to leave. But you didn't. And I think your perceptions of how many actual addicts you had in group are extremely far off and self serving. I've heard SO many times from SO many different people that they eventually just lied and said they were addicts in order to be allowed to go home.

What, they're all lying? Just making shit up? For what possible reason, John? Is this some kind of conspiracy against you?

say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith, I consider a capacity for it terrifying and absolutely vile.
--Kurt Vonnegut, American author

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"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
~ Crosby Stills Nash & Young, Sweet Judy Blue Eyes

Offline Anonymous

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Another note to John Underwood
« Reply #46 on: September 29, 2005, 03:05:00 PM »
Some kids might have lied about drug usage.  I never heard of one person lying about being an "Addict".  


Are you SO sure of SO much stuff.   SO THERE.
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Offline Thom

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Another note to John Underwood
« Reply #47 on: September 29, 2005, 03:19:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-09-29 07:11:00, GregFL wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-09-29 07:05:00, Thom wrote:


"yeah, what he said!"




Gee what a surprise. Wipe you nose off, Thom..it appears to be obtaining a brown stain once again.



"

 ::soapbox::
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Offline marshall

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Another note to John Underwood
« Reply #48 on: September 29, 2005, 03:43:00 PM »
quote--------
"Do you mean to tell me that all I had to do was raise my hand and say some thing like
I disagree with the policy that only allows me to use the bathroom once or twice a day?
 Your statement flies in the face of whole druggie-rehab control philosphy."
---------------


All excellent points, anon.  You seem to be pointing to the authoritarian structure of the Seed. It was not a democracy where anyone could even bitch, whine or complain much less actually make constructive suggestions or try to change things. The authoritarian heirarchy was similar to that of the catholic church. A lowly church member can't make any meaningful suggestions or critique. Even priests or theologians that dare to question the party line are often dealt with harshly. All authority flows downward from the vatican. At the Seed, all authority flowed downward from Art. (not picking on catholicism here, just an example...the same is true for many religious organizations)

 There are "positive" aspects to dictatorships. The famous quip about Mussolini making the trains run on time comes to mind. Hitler reduced unemployment and raised living standards (unless you were jewish). Stalin turned the USSR from a backward agrarian nation into a  modern industrial state. I suppose any of these guys or their underlings could complain that the world keeps focusing on the negative aspects of their legacy. "You killed millions of people." "Well, yeah. But what about all the positive things we accomplished?"

In a newspaper article from way back, a seedling tells a reporter; "We talk alot about our beliefs." I chuckled when I read that. We didn't discuss our beliefs or exchange honest opinions there. We imbibed and regurgitated the beliefs we were fed on cue. Imagine a room full of random people actually 'talking about their beliefs' and compare that with what actually went on at the Seed. We were told what to believe just like any religious sect trains it's adherents. No dissent, no criticism, no suggestions. "This is the Truth" & you must believe it.

One problem with a top-down authoritarian organization is that any blind-spots or short-comings at the very top infect the rest of the group. Since no-one could honestly confront or criticize Art, any fault he had was glossed-over and passed down to staff and on to group. Smoking is a good example of this. Art was addicted and unable to quit smoking. Therefore, all sorts of justifications were acceptable in that regard. I remember people saying; ' Well, we've given up so many addictions, we have to keep just one.' The whole addiction to tobacco issue was never even questioned simply because our leader was addicted. As far as I know, no-one dared confront Art any time his own ego was out of whack. Art's blind spots were passed down to staff and then to group. Any screwy idea he harbored was acceptable for the group to hold. To question / confront him would have been seen as being ungrateful and f.o.s. Not only is this all harmful to the whole group, it wasn't even fair to Art himself. It allowed him to develop a grossly exagerated sense of his own importance and infallibility leading to a disconnect with reality on some level. This is common with any revered preacher or cult guru.

When I began to question the Seed and became disillusioned, I would sometimes sit in group and fantasize about what the Seed might be like if it were real. What if everything were honestly questioned and examined?What if we really did talk about our beliefs? What if we were really honest? It was years later when I began to understand that this 'ideal' seed could never exist. The very premise is wrong.  I came to the view that truth...the truth about myself, my relationship to others, the world, etc. could never be the product of simply accepting beliefs or conclusions from someone else.

 Peer pressure / brainwashing can only substitute one form of conditioning for another. It isn't capable of uncovering the very nature of conditioning itself. You can't brow-beat anyone into real honesty or integrity. Real honesty, to me, meant questioning not only all the things the Seed advocated concerning my druggie past, but questioning the beliefs and conclusions of Art and the Seed as well. A real rap session...as opposed to the indoctrination we recieved at the seed....would fearlessly examine any and all beliefs and conclusions in an attempt to uncover what is true and real. Not according to Art or staff or xyz. A real rap would be a dialogue, not a monologue featuring people talking at one another. It would be an environment that attempted to be free of peer-pressure to conform, not one that encouraged it and tried to use fear, insecurity and guilt to mold the ideal ubermensh....homo seedlingus. In that imaginary place, any suggestions or criticism would certainly have been welcomed and we could then perhaps be held accountable for not trying to make improvements.
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Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any organization be formed to lead or to coerce people along any particular path. You must climb towards the Truth. It cannot be \'stepped down\'

Offline Thom

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Another note to John Underwood
« Reply #49 on: September 29, 2005, 03:44:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-09-29 09:16:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:

""Same Shit different shithole"



Greg are you quoting Homer or Tennyson?  :grin: "

Looks like he is describing a colostomy
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Offline Anonymous

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Another note to John Underwood
« Reply #50 on: September 29, 2005, 03:48:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-09-29 12:44:00, Thom wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-09-29 09:16:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:


""Same Shit different shithole"





Greg are you quoting Homer or Tennyson?  :grin: "


Looks like he is describing a colostomy"


Wow that's really funny.  Give up the gay porn acting and get into stand-up comedy.


Thou art a Stepcraft-practicing buffoon.
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Offline Antigen

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Another note to John Underwood
« Reply #51 on: September 29, 2005, 03:52:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-09-29 12:05:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Some kids might have lied about drug usage.  I never heard of one person lying about being an "Addict".  





Are you SO sure of SO much stuff.   SO THERE."


Every single newcomer (except those rare few who refused till they could split) stood up at open meenting and said "Hi, I'm [first name] and I'm a druggie". In most cases, that was a lie. In some of the more tragic cases, it was bullshit; an untrue statement believed by the speaker.

It is one of the most beautiful compensations of life, that no man can sincerely try to help another without helping himself.
--Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Offline Thom

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Another note to John Underwood
« Reply #52 on: September 29, 2005, 04:07:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-09-29 12:48:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-09-29 12:44:00, Thom wrote:


"
Quote


On 2005-09-29 09:16:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:



""Same Shit different shithole"







Greg are you quoting Homer or Tennyson?  :grin: "




Looks like he is describing a colostomy"




Wow that's really funny.  Give up the gay porn acting and get into stand-up comedy.





Thou art a Stepcraft-practicing buffoon."

Thank thee
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Offline Ft. Lauderdale

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Another note to John Underwood
« Reply #53 on: September 29, 2005, 04:36:00 PM »
Oh so now you change it from addict to druggie.  Please make up your mind.

Or was it that was at Straight or the Seed or Straight or the Seed or Straight or the Seed.

I keep getting confused.  Thats right you were not at the Seed just Straight Inc.
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Offline Ft. Lauderdale

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Another note to John Underwood
« Reply #54 on: September 29, 2005, 04:38:00 PM »
None of them said I'm a druggie.

They said there Name , how old they were, & the drugs that they did.  

AT THE SEED THATS HOW IT WENT.
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Offline Antigen

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Another note to John Underwood
« Reply #55 on: September 29, 2005, 04:54:00 PM »
What's the difference between a druggie and an addict?

"When I was a druggie" was, in most cases in the Seed, a lie.

Now, here's a challenging question. If not coercion or undue influence (legal def, i.e. brainwashing) why did all those thousands of kids call themselves druggies when they were not?

It continues to amaze me to talk to law students -- college
graduates all and smarter than the average bear -- who will
seriously tell me about how dangerous mj is and how it
destroys the lives of those who use it and who, in the
very next sentence, will tell me how they and their
friends -- now CPAs, engineers, med students -- used
pot regularly through high school and college.  And
they don't see the contradiction between these statements.

We're not just talking ignorance here -- we are talking
deep down, serious, religious indoctrination.


--Buford C. Terrell, Professor of Law, South Texas College of Law

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"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
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Offline Anonymous

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Another note to John Underwood
« Reply #56 on: September 29, 2005, 06:26:00 PM »
Quote

On 2005-09-29 13:54:00, Antigen wrote:

"What's the difference between a druggie and an addict?



"When I was a druggie" was, in most cases in the Seed, a lie.



Now, here's a challenging question. If not coercion or undue influence (legal def, i.e. brainwashing) why did all those thousands of kids call themselves druggies when they were not?





All those thousands that weren't druggies?
Name 10.
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Offline Antigen

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Another note to John Underwood
« Reply #57 on: September 29, 2005, 07:22:00 PM »
Well, I can name 4, Mcnultys all. Then there was our neighbor, Mike and our other neighbor, Pam. Just read around these forums awhile. You'll find many instances of people talking about how they were pressured into confessing drug problems they never had.

Now, add to that that the actual rate of addiction in any population has remained around 1% - 3% since we've been keeping track and that most of those people don't become addicted till adulthood. It just doesn't pass the giggle test that thousands of kids who all happen to be tied by way of their parents just happened to all be addicts.

It's just astounding to me that, all these years later, you still think there were that many addicted teenagers in one highschool or another. What are you smoking, anyway?

All I ask is equal freedom.  When it is denied, as it always is, I take it anyhow.
--H.L. Mencken

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"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
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Offline Anonymous

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Another note to John Underwood
« Reply #58 on: September 29, 2005, 10:15:00 PM »
ah, you said druggies, not addicts
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Offline Thom

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Another note to John Underwood
« Reply #59 on: September 29, 2005, 10:38:00 PM »
All those thousands that weren't druggies?
Name 10.
Quote
On 2005-09-29 16:22:00, Antigen wrote:

"Well, I can name 4, Mcnultys all. Then there was our neighbor, Mike and our other neighbor, Pam.


Totally false, Ginger.
A druggie is a person who uses (illicit) drugs.
I know all the people you are refering to, and have used drugs with all of them (but not in a while:). If my math is right, I'm even one of them. I was never coerced into admitting I was a druggie by anyone. I admitted it of my own free will.

An addict is a person who can no longer claim to be a recreational drug user because they can't stop, or could not stop without help.


I, Thom McNulty (on behalf of myself), who used to be a druggie (used illicit drugs) a long time ago, and freely admitted it while at The Seed, do hereby revoke my (his/her) status as a member of the Fornits Cult. Further, I demand that any and all persons who publicly proclaim a given number of 'Fornits Cult Members',  henceforth reduce said number by one.
 
I do this of my own free will for the following reason(s): I/he/she don't wish to submit myself to the false teachings and abusive behavior of the Fornits Cult any longer.

Although I've enjoyed catching up on fond memories of my time at The Seed with a few posters here, I feel I have contributed all my experiences from The Seed.
(This stuff happened 30 years ago, for crying out loud! GET A LIFE!)

I am a truthful person, and have had enough of being accused of lying by Ginger, Greg and Anon. I have nothing I need to prove to anyone, and reading some of this crap is an annoying waste my valuable time. See ya!
 ( ::bangin::  ::ftard::  ::dove::
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