Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform > The Seed Discussion Forum
as*****
Anonymous:
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On 2005-09-21 11:44:00, marshall wrote:
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This may even offer a basis for agreement as to certain critiques of the program. For example, what do you think of the requirement that everyone remain on their program...for life...never graduating? Of needing Art's approval as to who you could choose to date or marry? Staff pressuring people to have abortions? Determining what sort of job / career was permissable to you? Dividing men and women as to 'manly' work / hobbies and woman's work? Men being told that studying art was for sissies or women? The forming of an inner circle or clique?
I remember staff exactly as you describe in that post...overworked and being payed a tiny stipend. During our time there, little or no emphasis was placed upon acquiring wealth or status. This too seems to have changed markedly in later years. Can you at least admit that the Seed (post Underwood) seems to have become a self-enclosed cult-like group? Would you want Lybbi telling you who you could marry and how many kids you could have? BTW, I have no direct knowledge of any of this since I wasn't there at the time. However, there are several people that were there during those years that post here. Take some time to read and digest some of the posts concerning this part of the program. I'm sure those who were there would be happy to verify (or refute) the points I brought up or answer any questions you might have about the later Seed.
:tup: :tup: :tup:
Funny, how John really dodged these questions, when in reality he has no idea how things were all those years after he left. I find it even more revelaing that he metions he could never beleive stories from others on this site, but we are supposed to trust in his vision of over 20 years ago. Bottom line, if things were so great he would have never left and at the very least would have kept in touch with those he felt he had such sibling bonds with. I'm not surprised at how confidently he puts himself at the same level as Lybbi (back then) letting us know that she really wasn't match for him, maybe just for all the other peasants. I'm quite sure he can still reach for the phone and call not only her, but many others he can recconect with.
The great mystery is what he would have been like had he stuck it out with Lybbi. It seems to me more like that not even that warehouse was big enough for two egos of these proportions (Make that 3 or 4). As he mentioned, many had already jumped ship, so once he was out of the way the rest is history since Art and Lybbi did know very well how to reign over the followers.
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marshall:
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It wasn't just advocated, it was required. I have no reason to doubt the posters here who have asserted this. You might see Terrance :lol: as a reliable source, ask him. He's confirmed this here as well. So many of the later changes amazed me as well when I first heard of them.
(btw ft. lauderdale, I'm picking about your name, not your credibility here. Terrance is almost as weird as marshall!)
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According to several here, this too changed and Art or staff had to give the OK for anyone (remember we're talking about what you or I would call 'graduates' or long-time members) to even date, much less marry. I realize this wasn't true when you were there. I remember the announcement of your marriage and have written about that here.
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You would think, huh? I hope some of the later-day members (sounds like a cool name for a sect) will step in here and again give their stories on these issues.
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7. Art is for sissies? Now do you mean studying Art Barker, or aesthetics?">
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Aesthetics. Members, especially male members were discouraged from this unmanly pursuit, it seems.
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I agree....but. That is really funny. The Seed had rules against cliqueing and I recall raps about how our druggie friends weren't really friends...we just cliqued together. It was seen as a bad thing. I can only imagine the response of you or any staff member to a newcomer standing up and saying what you just wrote. "Sure my friends & I were part of a clique...it's the human condition...too bad!"
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I understand. Perhaps you might have some other sources for confirmation that you would feel more confident in trusting. Just thought you might be interested in how the group evolved after you left.
On the flip side, others (I think Robin is one) have stated that the program indeed admitted clients on a sliding pay scale at some point. Perhaps she was talking about you and those you admitted in this way? I well remember walking near the back offices on SR 84 as an oldcomer and hearing you and Lybbi yelling at each other...well actually, I remember her yelling at you and you just sitting there. (I had to glance in to see WTF was going on.)
You've spoken of many of us here having expectations of perfection, with the implication that any criticism of the program (such as the above questions / critiques of the post-underwood seed) implies simple nit-picking or fault-finding for the sake of wallowing in negativity, etc. This seems like a subjective judgement. Where do you draw the line in such matters? It's like criticizing the government or president.
Also, as with the cliqueing response...I wonder how any staff member would have reacted if we had a rap on how selfish or lazy we were pre-seed & someone stood up and said; "You all just have expectations of perfection. My friends & I were only human...we made mistakes. You're just nit-picking our former lives." ? I'm only half-kidding here. That indeed seems to be some of what went on. Any 'bad' thing we thought or did was amplified or exagerated in group and any positive qualities were dismissed. You promoted that sort of thing at the Seed but seem irritated by what you perceive as similar attitudes here. (posters amplifiying or emphasizing the negative aspects of the program and giving short-shrift to any postive aspects)
Thanks muchly for your response.
(BTW, you did my intake. I remember you asking if there was anything else I needed to give to my parents...rings, wallets, etc...I then mentioned that I was wearing a wig and reached up and took it off..revealing a very bald head. The Georgia prison system had just shaved my head a week or so before my Seed intake. My parents had just bought the wig a few days before...one of those 70's hairstyles. You looked so strange...like you were trying your best not to burst out laughing. You told me I couldn't wear it. I remarked; "I guess it is a bit pretenscious". Later, some people that first saw me stand before the group said they thought I'd come from some cult. I kept it for years & used that wig to scare my children while playing with them.)
Anonymous:
The Cult, (not the band), though the former lead singer is now touring and recording with the surviving members of The Doors and that would be worth talking about.
If I post, "The Seed robbed me of my teeage years, made me feel like I was nothing, tormented me, mentally and emotionally, subjected me to humiliation after humiliation, destroyed my relationship with my family, and turned me from all my friends, telling me they were no good, yadda, yadda, yadda."
What I'd get in the way of resposes in nothing but sympathy and understanding.
If I post, "The Seed saved my life, kept me from a certain death, Art, Lybbi and the rest of the staff never showed anything but kindness to me, I thank God for The Seed, and I don't understand all the anymosity, yadda, yadda, yadda."
What I'd get in the way of responses is blasted, told I'm a sheep, brainwashed, or just dismissed.
Real examples of this exist in hige volume, page after page after page right here. Copying and pasting them to verify, ...you already know.
Isn't the "my way or the highway" mentality the actual example you attempt to use in order to demonstrate The Seed being a nothing more than a cult.
Like it or not, what you've got yourself here is, by any interpretation of the word, a "cult."
Gutless Bastard:
I would have to agree with the previous poster's cult conclusion.
Antigen:
No, that's not so. You just get beat up on by different people depending upon your slant.
The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles.
--John Adams, U.S. President
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