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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #45 on: September 22, 2005, 02:51:00 PM »
Quote

On 2005-09-21 11:44:00, marshall wrote:

"

This may even offer a basis for agreement as to certain critiques of the program. For example, what do you think of the requirement that everyone remain on their program...for life...never graduating? Of needing Art's approval as to who you could choose to date or marry? Staff pressuring people to have abortions? Determining what sort of job / career was permissable to you? Dividing men and women as to 'manly' work / hobbies and woman's work? Men being told that studying art was for sissies or women? The forming of an inner circle or clique?



I remember staff exactly as you describe in that post...overworked and being payed a tiny stipend.  During our time there, little or no emphasis was placed upon acquiring wealth or status. This too seems to have changed markedly in later years. Can you at least admit that the Seed (post Underwood) seems to have become a self-enclosed cult-like group? Would you want Lybbi telling you who you could marry and how many kids you could have? BTW, I have no direct knowledge of any of this since I wasn't there at the time. However, there are several people that were there during those years that post here. Take some time to read and digest some of the posts concerning this part of the program. I'm sure those who were there would be happy to verify (or refute) the points I brought up or answer any questions you might have about the later Seed.

 

 :tup:  :tup:  :tup:

Funny, how John really dodged these questions, when in reality he has no idea how things were all those years after he left. I find it even more revelaing that he metions he could never beleive stories from others on this site, but we are supposed to trust in his vision of over 20 years ago. Bottom line, if things were so great he would have never left and at the very least would have kept in touch with those he felt he had such sibling bonds with. I'm not surprised at how confidently he puts himself at the same level as Lybbi (back then) letting us know that she really wasn't match for him, maybe just for all the other peasants. I'm quite sure he can still reach for the phone and call not only her, but many others he can recconect with.

The great mystery is what he would have been like had he stuck it out with Lybbi. It seems to me more like that not even that warehouse was big enough for two egos of these proportions (Make that 3 or 4). As he mentioned, many had already jumped ship, so once he was out of the way the rest is history since Art and Lybbi did know very well how to reign over the followers.
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Offline marshall

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« Reply #46 on: September 22, 2005, 03:01:00 PM »
quote-----------------

<"2. Program for life? If you mean that literally, of course that?s absurd, never should have been advocated. Even more than absurd, directly counter to the very purpose of the program, though I don't personally remember ever hearing that.">
----------------------------

It wasn't just advocated, it was required. I have no reason to doubt the posters here who have asserted this. You might see Terrance  :lol:  as a reliable source, ask him. He's confirmed this here as well. So many of the later changes amazed me as well when I first heard of them.  
(btw  ft. lauderdale, I'm picking about your name, not your credibility here. Terrance is almost as weird as marshall!)

quote------------------------------
3. <"It was never Art?s business who someone married. I married a Seed grad a over year before leaving. It was certainly, at best, frowned upon (and unwanted) before the marriage, but to their credit, it was supported with sincerity after the fact.">
--------------------------------------

According to several here, this too changed and Art or staff had to give the OK for anyone (remember we're talking about what you or I would call 'graduates' or long-time members) to even date, much less marry. I realize this wasn't true when you were there. I remember the announcement of your marriage and have written about that here.  

quote--------------------
<"Long term career - individual decision.">
--------------------------

You would think, huh? I hope some of the later-day members (sounds like a cool name for a sect) will step in here and again give their stories on these issues.

quote--------------------------
7. Art is for sissies? Now do you mean studying Art Barker, or aesthetics?">
--------------------------------

Aesthetics. Members, especially male members were discouraged from this unmanly pursuit, it seems.

quote-----------------------
<" I?ve never seen anyplace, school, the workplace, The Seed Discussion Forum, et al, where inner circles, cliques don?t exist. Again, too bad, part of the condition human.">
-----------------------------

I agree....but. That is really funny. The Seed had rules against cliqueing and I recall raps about how our druggie friends weren't really friends...we just cliqued together. It was seen as a bad thing. I can only imagine the response of you or any staff member to a newcomer standing up and saying  what you just wrote.  "Sure my friends & I were part of a clique...it's the human condition...too bad!"

quote------------------------
<" I?m certainly not going draw definitive conclusions based solely on information gathered here">
-----------------------------

I understand. Perhaps you might have some other sources for confirmation that you would feel more confident in trusting. Just thought you might be interested in how the group evolved after you left.

On the flip side, others (I think Robin is one) have stated that the program indeed admitted clients on a sliding pay scale at some point. Perhaps she was talking about you and those you admitted in this way? I well remember walking near the back offices on SR 84 as an oldcomer and hearing you and Lybbi yelling at each other...well actually, I remember her yelling at you and you just sitting there. (I had to glance in to see WTF was going on.)

You've spoken of many of us here having expectations of perfection, with the implication that any criticism of the program (such as the above questions / critiques of the post-underwood seed) implies simple nit-picking or fault-finding for the sake of wallowing in negativity, etc. This seems like a subjective judgement. Where do you draw the line in such matters? It's like criticizing the government or president.

 Also, as with the cliqueing response...I wonder how any staff member would have reacted if we had a rap on how selfish or lazy we were pre-seed & someone stood up and said; "You all just have expectations of perfection. My friends & I were only human...we made mistakes. You're just nit-picking our former lives." ? I'm only half-kidding here. That indeed seems to be some of what went on. Any 'bad' thing we thought or did was amplified or exagerated in group and any positive qualities were dismissed. You promoted that sort of thing at the Seed but seem irritated by what you perceive as similar attitudes here. (posters amplifiying or emphasizing the negative aspects of the program and giving short-shrift to any postive aspects)

Thanks muchly for your response.

(BTW, you did my intake. I remember you asking if there was anything else I needed to give to my parents...rings, wallets, etc...I then mentioned that I was wearing a wig and reached up and took it off..revealing a very bald head. The Georgia prison system had just shaved my head a week or so before my Seed intake. My parents had just bought the wig a few days before...one of those 70's hairstyles. You looked so strange...like you were trying your best not to burst out laughing. You told me I couldn't wear it. I remarked; "I guess it is a bit pretenscious".  Later, some people that first saw me stand before the group said they thought I'd come from some cult. I kept it for years &  used that wig to scare my children while playing with them.)
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Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any organization be formed to lead or to coerce people along any particular path. You must climb towards the Truth. It cannot be \'stepped down\'

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #47 on: September 22, 2005, 03:15:00 PM »
The Cult, (not the band), though the former lead singer is now touring and recording with the surviving members of The Doors and that would be worth talking about.
If I post, "The Seed robbed me of my teeage years, made me feel like I was nothing, tormented me, mentally and emotionally, subjected me to humiliation after humiliation, destroyed my relationship with my family, and turned me from all my friends, telling me they were no good, yadda, yadda, yadda."
What I'd get in the way of resposes in nothing but sympathy and understanding.
If I post, "The Seed saved my life, kept me from a certain death, Art, Lybbi and the rest of the staff never showed anything but kindness to me, I thank God for The Seed, and I don't understand all the anymosity, yadda, yadda, yadda."
What I'd get in the way of responses is blasted, told I'm a sheep, brainwashed, or just dismissed.
Real examples of this exist in hige volume, page after page after page right here. Copying and pasting them to verify, ...you already know.
Isn't the "my way or the highway" mentality the actual example you attempt to use in order to demonstrate The Seed being a nothing more than a cult.
Like it or not, what you've got yourself here is, by any interpretation of the word, a "cult."
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Offline Gutless Bastard

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« Reply #48 on: September 22, 2005, 03:26:00 PM »
I would  have to agree with the previous poster's cult conclusion.
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #49 on: September 22, 2005, 03:29:00 PM »
No, that's not so. You just get beat up on by different people depending upon your slant.

The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles.
--John Adams, U.S. President

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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #50 on: September 22, 2005, 03:30:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-09-22 12:26:00, Gutless Bastard wrote:

"I would  have to agree with the previous poster's cult conclusion."


No, this is a cult:

http://www.algamus.com/

Redemption: Deliverance of sinners from the penalty of their sins through the murder of their deity against whom they sinned.
--Ambrose Bierce

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Offline John Underwood

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« Reply #51 on: September 22, 2005, 03:38:00 PM »
Hello again Marshall,
I have no doubt whatsoever that The Seed changed, in my opinion, for the worse after I left. As I've written about, it started well before that. And it is not that I don't believe much of what's written regarding the rule changes, etc, I do, it's  just that because I wasn't there, I feel my conmmenting about it is inappropriate, or rather it's more appropriate to hear about from people who were there. And you are absolutely write when you state that much of the rhetoric here loses meaning, lends itself to misinterpretation, because there were so many different Seeds (and I mean in the context you do, not physically). And I was only there for 6 1/2 years. An example, The Seed at Cleveland v. early Andrews Ave., anyone who experienced both knows the differences dwarfed the similarities in no small degree.
I feel like I'm shortchanging you again, but I really do have to go. But as promised previously, we will continue this dialogue.
John
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Offline Gutless Bastard

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« Reply #52 on: September 22, 2005, 05:05:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-09-22 12:30:00, Antigen wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-09-22 12:26:00, Gutless Bastard wrote:


"I would  have to agree with the previous poster's cult conclusion."




No, this is a cult: http://www.algamus.com"


Who is the leader of this cult, and how does it meet the cult criteria?[ This Message was edited by: Gutless Bastard on 2005-09-22 14:06 ]
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #53 on: September 22, 2005, 05:23:00 PM »
What's "American Society for the New Identity Process"?

People everywhere enjoy believing things that they know are not true. It spares them the ordeal of thinking for themselves and taking responsibility for what they know.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000051WYJ/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'> BROOKS ATKINSON (1894-1984), Once Around The Sun, 1951.

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Offline Gutless Bastard

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« Reply #54 on: September 22, 2005, 08:28:00 PM »
I don't know...something to do with the Federal Witness Protection Program?
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #55 on: September 22, 2005, 08:41:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-09-22 12:30:00, Antigen wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-09-22 12:26:00, Gutless Bastard wrote:


"I would  have to agree with the previous poster's cult conclusion."




No, this is a cult:



http://www.algamus.com/


Wanna bet?
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #56 on: September 22, 2005, 09:01:00 PM »
I'll take a chance...

Ardent advocates of prohibition were obsessed by a zeal that bordered on fanaticism. They supported politicians who voted to outlaw liquor, no matter how much of it they privately consumed, and spurned politicians who voted against prohibition, no matter how sober they were personally.
http://www.ncpoliticalreview.com/1101/Ervin/cohen.htm' target='_new'>Sen. Sam Ervin, Preserving The Constitution

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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #57 on: September 22, 2005, 10:12:00 PM »
How about International Primal Association?

If you honestly don't know then I think you should ask Rick before you get any more comfy in bed w/ him.

A man is accepted into a church for what he believes and he is turned out for what he knows.
--Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist

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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #58 on: September 23, 2005, 02:26:00 AM »
Quote
On 2005-09-22 12:38:00, John Underwood wrote:

"Hello again Marshall,

I have no doubt whatsoever that The Seed changed, in my opinion, for the worse after I left. As I've written about, it started well before that. And it is not that I don't believe much of what's written regarding the rule changes, etc, I do, it's  just that because I wasn't there, I feel my conmmenting about it is inappropriate, or rather it's more appropriate to hear about from people who were there. And you are absolutely write when you state that much of the rhetoric here loses meaning, lends itself to misinterpretation, because there were so many different Seeds (and I mean in the context you do, not physically). And I was only there for 6 1/2 years. An example, The Seed at Cleveland v. early Andrews Ave., anyone who experienced both knows the differences dwarfed the similarities in no small degree.

I feel like I'm shortchanging you again, but I really do have to go. But as promised previously, we will continue this dialogue.

John"


Now here we have some common ground to agree on John...

except not all the changes were for the worse. For example, no longer were nine year to 14 year old children having their anal, vaginal and penal areas examined by staff and then  being held against their will for being "dry druggies" or possessing "druggie attitudes", removed from their homes and forced into compliance. This was a step in the right direction IMO.

Going further, some of the extreme regimentation disapeared. No longer were raps really 12 hour indoctrination sessions from 10 to 10 but instead became more relaxed.  Even further, someone posted about playing tennis with their oldcomer in the later years. IMAGINE THAT!!!!!!

But on the inverse, when the sheer size of the seed diminished, the true nature of one Art Barker started shining thru loud and clear, and as new recruits started drying up, those left were encouraged to stick around and were having major smoke blown up their arses about being "chosen" and all that other cultie lovie dovie coercise stuff.

Yes the seed changed, and I will reiterate again..the Seed I was involved with in 1973 was a nuthouse.  the later on was a nuthouse also, just a different brand.
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #59 on: September 23, 2005, 02:36:00 AM »
Quote
On 2005-09-22 11:12:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:

"Now I really know that you have no idea of what you are talking about.  People never even swore at an open meeting.  That was even one of the rules.  

 

Oh, I remember one particular instance where a kid got screamed at and cursed at in an open meeting in St Pete. The kid after his parents said something to him said something rude back, and one of the staff members yanked the mike away from him and started yelling at him. All the hands in group shot up and down..clickety clickety and all that, but thankfully no one got called on to complete the impromtu "come down on" session in front of the parents.

Major red flag BTW ...When the rules change and behavior is tempered in front of "outsiders".

Think about that.
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