I'm serious--let's do something

[marcwordsmith]

Hi. On another thread, I posted the suggestion that maybe those of us who felt strongly about the existing Seed copycat programs could take some action together.

I didn't mean that we should disrupt our lives or organize vast media campaigns, but perhaps we could at least take a few humble steps.

Some people on this site have done extensive and admirable research into the Seed clones and copycats that are in operation now. My wife told me yesterday that there are several in California; she knows this through a friend who works with teens.

My idea for the moment is something very simple. Target a few of the locales where clearly identified Seed-type programs exist and place simple letters to the editors of local papers signed by all of us who are willng to sign. The gist of such letters could be, "We are graduates of a program called the Seed, which operated out of South Florida in the 1970s, and which was similar in style and technique to [insert program name here]. We are now middle-aged, but we can never forget our experiences, and would not wish them to be visited on other teens. We simply want the community to understand what these programs involve: namely, systematic destruction of a teen's sense of self, through psychological and physical abuse, including sleep deprivation, highly restricted access to the bathroom, and constant verbal lashings by other group members and by program staff. The net effect of this treatment is to replace a teen's sense of identity with a new identity--the identity of the program. This may work for a while to get a teen to stop experimenting with drugs, but we feel strongly that in all but the most desperate cases, this kind of treatment does more damage--to self-esteem, ability to form relationships, ability to think clearly, etc.--than good. We only ask that parents and others who may be thinking of remanding their child to [program name] should consider that this decision could have unforeseen, and very undesirable, long-term consequences both to their child and to themselves.
Sincerely, etc."

and we could all sign.

Something like that. I don't know.

My thought is that even if we kept ONE child out of a Seed-like program, it would be worth it.

Or am I just pissing in the wind here? Reality check please.

[starry-eyed pirate]

Great idea.  The tentative draft is well worded too without bein' inflammatory and it could be easily done(i was not in the Seed but i was in Str8)  i support this idea.

[Antigen]

No, your reality check did not bounce.

Here's how I see it. There are a damned lot of us around the country and the world now who have firsthand experience w/ these types of programs. And we all have our opinions. It's my belief that they only way the Program can work is if there's some central, top down control of group opinions, available info and communications. My primary objective in hosting these forums and hawking all available research has been just to get us all thinking and talking about the issue and sorting it out.

What each of us does w/ it depends on our own talents and personalities as much as what oportunities present.

Your quite correct, imo, that letters to editors can be about the most effective, efficient, low demand means of broadening that dialog. Your letter is just about perfect; as to the point as this rather complex topic allows. I'd say it's publishable if the editor is so inclined.

If anyone wants to brush up on effective strategies and accepted LTE decorum, Media Awareness Project has some very good resources. Folks around here may agree or disagree anywhere from moderately to vehemently w/ the stated objectives of MAP, Inc. and/or some of their affiliates. But they do have an objetively solid and proven database and networking foundation.

I would not be at all averse to hosting a forum modeled after the same structure, provided someone were willing to moderate. That's a taller order than I am willing to commit to, but if someone else wants to do it, I'm all for it. You'd have to be a hard ass and restrict postings to published articles and press releases strictly relavent to the issue (and there will be argument about that) and to published LTEs on topic. MAP wound up hosting a seperate list for sent LTE's with more lax rules on what is and is not on topic.

But even w/o a formal, organized effort, there's no reason why anyone reading here can't post relavent articles, responses, discussion, suggestions, etc. about the industry in an informal way.

All our liberties are due to men who, when their conscience has compelled them, have broken the laws of the land.
--William Kingdon Clifford

[FueLaw]

Marc,

Your idea is fine but the best way to do some worthwhile damage to these places is to sue them. This way you can get discovery on them. Discovery is taking depositions (sworn statements) and obtaining written records through subpoena's. Once you file a lawsuit you have the power of the court behind you. After you get the records you can turn them over to appropriate government agencies.

However, there are two problems.  First, you need a plaintiff. That is someone who is currently in one of these programs or someone recently released or who was lucky enough to escape. Without a plaintiff you cant sue anyone. Second, you need lawyers that will take these cases on the come and who will bankroll the case.  I would do one in Dade or Broward county.( Boy would I love to get my hands on a John Underwood or Art Barker wannabe) The rest of the country may be a problem.

For backround info or specific examples you may want to read some of the articles on Wes Fagers site, http://www.thestraights.com  [ This Message was edited by:  on 2005-09-05 16:32 ]

[Napolean Bonafart]

As corrupt as the current government is you're probably kinda out of the range of stopping this from happening right now.

Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't.
-- Anonymous

[JaLong]

I think  it is a great idea. I too think it would be best if there were many signatures. That would get the message out louder if we sign as a group united. I know St.Pete Times would grab onto this since it was here, and they are a liberal newspaper. Please keep me informed. Thanks.
I have a question. I remember years back there was a guy who talked around the country about the seed and the damage it had done to most. Etc, etc. Does anyone know who that was?

[marcwordsmith]

It occurse to me that letters to editors may not be published. After all, Seed-like entities are not late-breaking news, and a letter to the editor about them may seem "out of nowhere." Another alternative is a few carefully placed paid display ads in some of these papers. Perhaps a bunch of us could chip in for the cost, if we get enough signators.

I would like to do something somehow that would be easy, simple, possibly effective in at least helping a few kids (point well taken, Root of Jesse, that we're not likely to bring down the evil empire with such letters or ads), and not dangerous to us. That is, none of us should have to stick out necks out so far as to re-aggravate or reactivate our own upset and trauma.

Lawsuits are a bit more ambitious than anything I can personally get behind right now, Fuelaw, though more power to you (and as much support as I can muster) if you initiate that process.

So I'd like to recast the letter, tighten it up, include Straight survivors as well as Seed survivors in the text, and then get the research from Ginger or someone to help determine where the ads/letters should be placed.

But easy does it, yeah? Let's proceed carefully, so we don't come off as "off the wall."

Anyone interested, please send me a Private Message and I'll respond with my email address, and maybe we'll get a little email discussion going, and we'll nail down/fine tune the text of what we want to say, and then proceed. I think there should be at least ten people to sign this statement, if it's to carry significant force.

Thank you to those who posted above, expressing willingness to sign. We'll see what happens. Perhaps we can make a difference for a few kids, and that would be worth it.

[Antigen]

Yeah, you have to have a relavent hook. And there are plenty, almost daily, if you familiarize yourself w/ the people and corporate entities involved in this scam.

You just have to know what questions to ask. Any school district that's debating suspicionless piss testing, for example, is in this game whether they know it or not. Drug and Alcohol Testing Industries Association (DATIA) members make almost the entire market in drug screening. Quest Dx is one of the bigger ones among them. Just look at their BOA and BOD lists and the guest lists for their galas and such. You'll find familiar names of pathological liars. And those people are the ONLY source of information in support of their publicly funded programs.

So ask for some more solid evidence that piss testing actually delivers results. Fact is, it doesn't. It does cause kids who might indulge occasionally (or who just take offence to the implicit accusation) to pass on organized activities. And it does provide developed leads for the TC style teen rehabs that always send along their advertising (refereal service) w/ the testing kids and propaganda. But it does not reduce substance use or abuse in student populations nor does it reduce accidental injury, improve test scores or anything else they promise.

Area taskforces are another scandalous story thats playing out virtually unchallenged everywhere but Texas.

There are many other examples. Just follow what these same people are up to now. Guaranteed, they're still snookering us into public funding and policy in pursuit of their obsession. And they're getting quite wealthy and famous in the process. Do you believe that Mel Sembler has an embassy building named after him, w/ a wing in it named for the congresscritter who proposed the naming bill? In fucking credible! This guy should be doing time, or at least be required to report his whereabouts as a serial child abuser!

While I have seen organized efforts in the area of drug policy reform have a huge impact, I've also seen all kinds of infighting and monkey business that goes along w/ it. That's why I've never been a formal member of anything but Clan Warbis. I will write a letter from time to time and have even been known to take up a bull horn and a protest sign occasionally. But my advice is to do what you're inclined to do and to just do it freelance.

Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.
--Napoleon Bonaparte, French emperor

[Anonymous]

Fuelaw
where can i find this article about you and seed kids being beaten, when was it published, who was the reporter, what was the name of article and in what publication?

[marcwordsmith]

In the interests of keeping my/our particular efforts focused, Ginger, I probably wouldn't take on the issue of suspicionless drug testing per se. I'm more interested simply in raising awareness about behavior modification programs like the Seed and Straight.

I'm not interested in doing this "freelance." I don't think that a letter or an ad signed by one individual will have nearly as much impact as one endorsed by a number of individuals, who have all graduated from Seed or Straight at different times. Therefore, I'm hoping to get at least ten people (including myself) who explicitly want to move forward with putting their names on some kind of statement that would appear out in a public forum, such as a newspaper. So far, there are four of us. Maybe five, since perhaps I can also include Starry-Eyed pirate, since you said in this thread, Pirate, that you support the idea, though I haven't heard directly from you as yet.

AsI said before, I don't want to stick my neck out by myself, nor should anyone else. It seems there must be thousands of people out there who agree--who KNOW from first-hand experience--that these kinds of programs are poison to the developing identity of a normal teenager, even a teen who might be experimenting with drugs. If six or so more might be willing to craft a simple, clear statement with me, I would think that it could have some force. Hope to hear from more people! Thanks!

[Antigen]

Well, the drug screening issue is just one (of many) side issues that I've looked into and found direct ties back to DFAF, Bobby DuPont and their So. Florida cronnies. I was only using that as an example. I'm trying to address your question about this issue seeming to come out of the blue or seeming to be unrelated to anything normally covered in the media.

You're absolutely right. If you want to get ink, you must illustrate the relationship between some current topic and your issue. Just look over some of the instructions offered by organizations like MAP, Inc (not to be confused w/ MAPS... different people, different kind of project)

MAP, Inc. started out as an occasional letter writing campaign out of a coffee shop in Washington or Oregon or some such. They really started to get the juice flowing when a couple of net geeks joined the efforts. They've just built a nifty information resource by which interested volunteers can keep abrest of the issues on which MAP, Inc. focuses, toss around ideas, organize responses, etc. But still, the most important and, in my view, most effective thing they do is to encourage people to write their own damned letters to editors accross the nation.

Now, I know a LOT of people in these forums would be put off by the fact that MAP, Inc. is primarily a legalization org. However, if ya'll can look past that and take a lesson from their techniques (and come to accept that the alleged link between cannabis and antimotivational syndrome is, very obviously, bullshit) you may save yourself making the same mistakes or having to reinvent the wheel here.

Way back in the late `90's, I tried to get Matt and the rest of them to open a set of lists and pages expressly to address DFAF and the Program. While they were well aware of the connections to their causes, they didn't want to alienate the 'treatment not incarceration' crowd. In fact, as it turned out, CASAM (w/ Bobby DuPont on it's board) wound up lending their endorsement to Prop 36 in California.

So I just sort of set up my own little pup tent, hopeing that something as good or better would eventually grow out of it. No hard feelings there. But I still think it's a good idea to follow their model, as it has been unarguably successful at accomplishing their goals.

That's the long answer. Short answer to your question? It's real simple, really. Get these 10 (or, I'm guessing, hundreds if you really make a good case for involvement) of people to keep an eye out for target issues that are already being addressed in the media but that lack the perspective that we can provide. Then we discuss the best words to use and the best publications to target to address those concerns. I suggest that we leave the final drafting to you or maybe Walter or Evan or Marshall cause ya'll are just so damned good at it.

But definitely, there are hooks, we just have to identify them and come up w/ a susinct, powerful way to illustrate them to the public.

How about the trend in reality tv focusing on teen boot camps? Did you watch Brat Camp? Notice any similarities?

Emotions rule the world; Is it any wonder that it's so mucked up?!
http://fornits.com/rates.htm' target='_new'>Bill Warbis

[marcwordsmith]

Thank you Ginger, I will definitely look up Map, Inc. and have a look at their instructions this week some time.

I was feeling a little discouraged that I hadn't heard from more people regarding signing a letter or other proactive action against Seed-like programs in existence now, and then I realized that if anybody had tried to contact me via email, using the email address listed in my profile on this site, they'd have been frustrated 'cuz that's an old address. I have no idea if that actually happened, but if so, I apologize. My profile is updated now and my current email address is there.

I'm excited about the possibility of doing something together to keep other teens from suffering through what we did. I think it would be a healing thing. For myself, I'm sure it would be.

[Antigen]

NP, Mark. Don't be discouraged. These things do take time to gain momentum. And, in my view, you're far better off taking your time and avoiding some of the problems that have torn appart other, well intended efforts.

We must create an atmosphere where the crooked cop fears the honest cop, and not the other way around.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006JU7T/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'>Frank Serpico