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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2005, 09:09:00 AM »
Marshall, you're a prince.

Marc, I wish I had your composure.

John, when I read those 'sarcastic' questions, I almost fell out of my chair laughing. Why did I fail the Seed? Get out of your head! I never had any obligation to the Seed or Straight and neither did a single member of group who was held against their will.

We live in a contract based society. Contracts acquired through desception, coercion or undue influence are simply invalid. Can you comprehend that? That, even though yours and Art's and most of the parents' intentions were entirely good, you never had a right to force them onto us or to expect, far less demand, anything in return; at least, not anything good!

As to failures within our families, that's none of your damned business. Maybe you should have become a shrink and laid these neurotic parents out on a couch for a living. Oh yeah, rjfro, blame the parents for believing what they were sold? Riiiiiight! It's all their fault. Maybe the Enron execs should have tried that defense?

This was the real gut buster, though. "And finally, if awareness, enlightenment can simply be gained from life (as so many of you propose), without the intervention of a prominent catalyst, how do you explain the state of the people, the nations, the condition of planet earth today?"

John, it's been over 20 years now. You still believe the Seed would have saved the world if only.... what? If only Art and Lybbi had listened to your advice? Fact is, whether you accept it or not, Straight and The Seed were similar enough that I had no problem at all getting along in group for two years by applying what I had learned about the Seed. There was even a Sr. Staffer named Chris who reminded me very much of you personality-wise. It was a constant tet-a-tet between Chris and me. He was obviously smart enough and dispassionate enough to see what was going on and, occasionally, cut a kid or the entire group some much needed slack. And I was constantly dropping little hints that I thought he ought to know better when he did let things get out of hand, which was rather too often in my opinion.

Straight HAS had a significant impact on our country and on the world. I don't know how you could call it positive. Just look into what DFAF, DPNA, ASAMS, MJCDTF* and the rest of their aliases and cronnie organizations have been up to on every level of local to international policy. There's little doubt that the Semblers succeeded where Art failed. They had a better business plan, better connections and they have imposed Program onto broader society in many ways.

And that's just one offshoot. Around the same time Bobby DuPont was setting Art up w/ his millions in federal funding, Mel Wasserman took the Synanon method to greater heights through CEDU (rumored to stand for Chuck E. Dederich University) They hooked up w/ the LGA people and have build a virtual empire of toughlove hategroups which generate millions per year for investment in public policy.

Now here I can cut Art considerable slack and even dig deep and find some genuine gratitude. He was a smart guy, no doubt. And he was in a position to do damned near anything. The cops wouldn't question him, neither would the parents and woe to any politician, teacher or anyone else who made his enemies list. I can't believe he was too dumb to play ball on that level. So that only leaves one alternative; he decided to cut his losses and reign over his small following rather than ride along to where that train was headed.

Based on what you've said about why you split, I'm thinkin' you didn't see it coming. And, based on what I've heard from later-day Seedlings, it seems that Art was able to regain some of that hippy love-fest vibe that was missing from Straight. And all these years later, you're still crying sour grapes cause you didn't get to take over the world? Please! Count your blessings!

Finally, I obviously recognize that some people like you landed up there at a time in your lives when you were genuinely in dire straits. And you must recognize that, for whatever reasons, the Seed experience has had a profound impact (good or bad) on just about everyone who had significan contact w/ it, regardless of their condition going in. Has it occured to you yet that, quite possibly, you were not thinking entirely clearly back then? Maybe, in the process of alterning your path away from opiate addiction and prison, the experience had other effects on you of which you were not and are not aware?

* If you're completely unfamiliar w/ these acronyms, then you don't know what you're talking about. Sorry, that's just how it is.

Marihuana influences Negroes to look at white people in the eye, step on white men's shadows and look at a white woman twice.



--Hearst newspapers nationwide, 1934

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"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2005, 09:51:00 AM »
It was what kind of kids "see" Dr Kieser not love
Dr Kieser.
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Offline Ft. Lauderdale

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« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2005, 12:26:00 PM »
I think I was wrong. Maybe it was love.
[ This Message was edited by: Ft. Lauderdale on 2005-09-03 09:34 ]
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Offline marcwordsmith

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« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2005, 02:58:00 AM »
Hey Ginger, I think we can acknowledge that rjfro22 makes a valid point by saying "blame your parents." I don't think putting a kid in the Seed or Straight was analogous to buying stock in an oil company. What kind of parent "buys" an organization that says, "Turn your kid over to us, just let us do what we do, and we'll turn that kid into a model child, with the proper attitude." ??

All the same, again, this site isn't about our parents; it's about the Seed. Saying that the Seed has no culpability because the parents were to blame is like saying that if a child is sold into slavery by his or her parents, then the slaver himself has no culpability.

(Just an analogy. I'm not equating the Seed with being sold into slavery.)
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2005, 05:49:00 AM »
No Marc, the anology stands because many of the parents (not all) were sold a phony bill of goods, just like those investors in various ponsy schemes and the like.
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Offline Ft. Lauderdale

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« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2005, 08:09:00 AM »
I disagree.  The "bill of goods" was.
1) get kids off drugs
2) We teach kids to " Love self , Love God and Love Country"

thats how I remember it.
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Offline Magpie

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« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2005, 10:13:00 AM »
There was alot to be learned at the Seed.  #1 - learn to love thyself and God.  #2 - I loved the expression "get out of your head".  When I am feeling sad about something that expression still comes to mind and helps me realize that I need to move on and stop feeling sorry for myself.  I look around sometimes and realize that I have alot more insight into life than most of the people I am around do.  Most people have not ever taken the time in their lives to learn about themselves because it's not always pleasant.  I thank God everyday for the Seed and all that I gained from it.  If you didn't gain anything, I guess that was your choice and your loss.  My motto in life is to Make the Best out of Things -- we have a choice (choose to go outside today and enjoy the day instead of writing in this website).  By the way, what would you have done differently if it were your child and you were worried about them dying?  And the last thing is, sorry it didn't help everyone but thank God it helped me and several of my wonderful new/old friends.  It's not too late to go outside and have some fun or enjoy life.
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Offline Stripe

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« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2005, 10:58:00 AM »
JRENFRO YOU ASK:  (Sorry if I misspelled your screen name)

What kind of parent "buys" an organization that says, "Turn your kid over to us, just let us do what we do, and we'll turn that kid into a model child, with the proper attitude." ??

THEY ARE DOING IT RIGHT NOW - TODAY. In these very times in which we live and breathe.  These drug rehab businesses did it from the inception.  If this MARKETING works (which it does) and it keeps profits steady or drives profits up, then it is never changed- it is only improved upon. That's business plain and simple.

I wrote on another thread about my "baiting" application to a company out in Utah.  I swear it was real.  Try it yourself if you don't believe me. It might take about 3 or 4 hours, but you will get confirmation of what I wrote. You can arrange for it all on-line.  

The people who think it did not happen 30 years ago are just as blind now as folks were back then. Blind to what right in front of your faces.

Why give John Underwood or any other blind sleeping people any power or creedence by responding to the obviously condescending and programmed responses.  Seriously, let 'em hang in the wind.

Guys, it's time to get active and serously look at our lives and what we have done, or not done, as a result of our experiences. Put the knowledge and proof you have from the past month into action.

Just a thought.[ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2005-09-04 08:02 ]
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The person who stands up and says, ``This is stupid,\'\' either is asked to `behave\' or, worse, is greeted with a cheerful ``Yes, we know! Isn\'t it terrific ?\'\' -- Frank Zappa

Offline GregFL

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« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2005, 11:00:00 AM »
No, its not too late to enjoy anything. In fact, right now I am outside, In Indonesia, and having a blast.

Shout Out Maggie.

Here is the thing...you "choose" to take positive lessons from the seed. You found god where god really only existed in a conceptual form, not where any god..christian or otherwise..was studied or revered. That is your choice..

I would ask you again Maggie My friend..do you realize you were in a cult, and how do you feel about that?

John...others have answered you much better than I choose to try here. You keep throwing diversions out there a la seed tactics instead of engaging people in real diaglogue.  No matter, that as well is your choice.

The order of the day, fT. Laud, at the seed can be anything you want, but that does not change the reality that it was shoved down the throat of people that didn't want or need it, and mixed in with all these sappy lessons you people extol was at the core an exlusionary cult based on the hero worship of a smidget of a man who attempted to replace the families of normal people with the seed while he sat on his on created throne on his own little kingdom. The wonderful "lessons" that art originated are today, as we speak, being forced on young kids that smoked a joint or two and are now locked away from normal society until such time as their will and spirit are sufficiently broke  until they "get it".

How about Someone swings by your house right now and locks you in a room until you convert to Islam?  Would you then be extoling the virtues of Mohammed to us 30 years later? Does the fact that Positive lessions can be taken from Islam excuse the methods that we may now shove down your involuntary throat? Would it help that countless Muslims logged on a website and told you that the lessons you learned under captivity could be used for good and you could just "forget the bad"?  Com'n, open your eyes and see the elephant in the room!

What is so hard for some of you to understand here?  It isn't whether or not for example you took a positive slant on the serentiy prayer that is at issue, it is that the seed was a coercive behavior modification cult that harmed countless children and the legacy of this slanted warped idea continues to harm children to this day.  To deny the reality of that is to be stuck 30 years ago in some failed utopian fantasy somewhere in your mind.  

Good luck letting THAT go....
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Offline Stripe

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« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2005, 11:10:00 AM »
Thanks for the clarification there, Greg.

I do wish everyone good luck in LETTING THAT GO.  It's nice to see that it runs both ways.
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The person who stands up and says, ``This is stupid,\'\' either is asked to `behave\' or, worse, is greeted with a cheerful ``Yes, we know! Isn\'t it terrific ?\'\' -- Frank Zappa

Offline marcwordsmith

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« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2005, 12:49:00 PM »
Amen. Thank you, Greg.

So . . . I wonder if there is anything we can do, as an interested demographic, to end or limit these kind of abuses as they exist in the present. Kind of like a "Veterans Against the War" group? Wouldn't it be great if we could actually--forgive the expression!--save some kids?

We're definitely more powerful together than any of us are alone. Perhaps those of us interested in this idea should start to brainstorm a little.
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #26 on: September 04, 2005, 01:43:00 PM »
Well, I have to agree that these teen programs have always been about the parents. And yes, that's exactly how they're marketed.

But not all the parents who fall for it are insane beyond redemption. A good many, in fact, come to their senses after awhile, pull their kids, help pursue civil and criminal action against the abusive programs. Remember, too, that the marketers now have an array of program names and marketing material to choose from. So they can sell a parent even more effectively on whatever they want to hear.

So the market remains strong. Even in a case like Brown Schools where a few lawsuits and regulatory sanctions drove them into bankruptcy, they just ship most of the kids to other programs, sell off the properties to other program operators, hang a new shingle and continue w/ business as usual. This is often true even of programs where kids die of stupid things like dehydration, exhaustion, exposure and untreated illness. And the operators and majority of the parents are just as adept as Seedlings ever were at blaming the kid for it.

Here's a prime example:
Quote
Corey had snapped as he and Laura discussed implementing one of Teen Help's latest practices ? removing kids from their homes if they didn't follow a strict behavior contract.

Despite the tragic outcome, Laura says that Teen Help was a godsend. Without it, she says, Corey might have died years earlier.

http://www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/sit ... esp1.shtml


I'm pretty certain that's exactly how my mother would respond if it were me.

Now, there are legislative efforts in the works to better regulate and control the industry. Just search these forums on "institutional child abuse" or "rep miller" for leads on that. Personally, I don't see any significant progress in this area since HRS managed to force Straight to hang meaningless 'clients bill of rights' sheets on the walls back in around `81 or so.

Personally, I think the root of the problem goes back to the demonization of youth that's been going on here since the `60's and in Europe to some extent more recently. In our day, the Manson Family was the big shocker. What parent wasn't terrified that their middle class white kids would take a hit off a joint and then, suddenly, go crazy and knife them in their sleep? (oh yeah, all but our parents....)

Today, I think the propaganda is more pervasive and more varied. Just browse through this bestselling educational resource right here
http://www.disciplinehelp.com/ and tell me if you know of a soul on this planet who can't be tagged as dysfunctional thereby.

I think that, that broadly deployed corruption in our society is the problem that needs to be addressed. And the best way to address it is through dialog. RAMPANT Talkin' out in group!

I believe that all important matters have to be settled here, not in the clouds somewhere after we kick off.
--Billy Joel, American musician

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Offline Ft. Lauderdale

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« Reply #27 on: September 04, 2005, 06:05:00 PM »
Stripe,
Where did you come up with JRENFRO.  I went skiing
with someone by that name in 1978 or 79.  I back tracked but am baffeled?  :question:
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #28 on: September 05, 2005, 12:54:00 AM »
Quote
On 2005-09-04 07:13:00, Magpie wrote:

  By the way, what would you have done differently if it were your child and you were worried about them dying?


A complicated question indeed Maggie. First, one must explore the basic premise..IE:  what were the real chances of a 14 year old drug experimenter dying as opposed to the "cure" harming them?  What are the long term affects of behavior modification and specifically the warehouse type extreme behavior modification we were subjected to? On individuals? On groups?  What is the death rate for 14 year old teenager drug experimenters not subjected to This form of treatment as opposed to the death rate of post Behavior modification kids? The drug addiction rate for these groups? The pyschological consequences on individuals? groups?

In other words..No one knew then, and they bloody well don't know now. Our parents collectively are guilty of jumping on the bandwagon and believing that the end justifyied the means.  Many people have gradated these programs and then killed themselves. You know this first hand. Others have died of drug overdoses and at least one resident poster has severe mental issues.

So...what is the net result of being institutionalized in synanon based drug rehab for non addicted children?  I suggest the anecodotal information indicates a negative gain on several levels.

In the very least this cultic immersion  causes people to believe that they were so freaken worthless and powerless that they couldn't have possibly even survived without extreme intervention. I call bullshit on that for almost everyone who posts here, except for those of you that were truly addicted. The rest of you are just to smart and love life too much to not have found your way out of a little drug abuse problem at an early age.  You all know people who  as kids did some drugs and came out of it, and they may now be running your local bank or brokering your investment deals or even be a local politician or police official. What makes these people so much more able than you?
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #29 on: September 05, 2005, 07:27:00 AM »
BTW, I must say that I have been in the position to watch my child get a bit abusive with substances, most notably drinking to excess when he was 16 and 17. I didn't like it nor could I really stop it. I did  however make it clear to him how I felt about itI also came home several times to the smell of marijuana and even more shockingly caught him smoking marboro cigarrettes on several occasions. This really concerned me after seeing the long term affects of excessive tobacco addiction on my family and friends.

I chose to believe in him instead of some slick sales pitch, some snake oil salesman promising to change my kid into someone that believed in God, country and himself.

 Hell, I knew he already believed in himself and was just making bad decisions, and I knew the time had come and gone for me to get in there and "Fix" him and further knew from personal experience that attempting to change who someone is often backfires into a situation that quickly spirals out of control.  I chose to believe in him, and I always will.

I am very very proud to say that soon he will be graduating college and is a fine young man...

No behavior modification necessary, and no threat of deathinsanityjail looming over his juvenile foolish decisions.
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