Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform > The Seed Discussion Forum
as per your request
marcwordsmith:
hey Marshall, Love your thoughtful posts, but just a small personal note of disagreement. I do think of myself as entirely anti-Seed, but I hardly think I've been "spewing venom." That is to say, I do have an absolute position here. I think the Seed stunk and there was no excuse for it. I agree that it's fine to see the good and the bad and ugly, and to have mixed feelings, and life usually comes to us in ambiguous colors. But that doesn't mean we have to have mixed feelings about everything. I did share long ago that a couple of staff members--Clay in particular--were very kind. There were a number of kind human deeds I witnessed in the Seed. Kindness can happen anywhere. But the institution itself . . . I think it was evil. Is that venomous?
As for John's last post, whew! John, you're so complex and deep. (Sarcastic.) When you asked "Why did you fail The Seed? What did you fail to do? Why did you fail your parents? Why did you fail yourself? Why didn?t you benefit when so many did?" were these questions "not meant to be taken literally"? Wow, no wonder I didn't "get it" in the Seed! I still don't get it!
When you asked "Are you living in such denial, buried in false pride that you fear swallowing it might lead to asphyxiation? Is separating yourself now from the good The Seed did self-affirming, ego satiating?" was this your "very mild, gentle attempt" to make a point? (Perhaps, come to think of it, it is mild and gentle compared to the language used in the Seed, but that wouldn't look so good in print, would it?)
And was THIS one sarcastic???
"And finally, if awareness, enlightenment can simply be gained from life (as so many of you propose), without the intervention of a prominent catalyst, how do you explain the state of the people, the nations, the condition of planet earth today?"
Is the "prominent catalyst" alluded to above The Seed, God, or . . . perhaps yourself? I mean, as you can see, I'm lost. There are just so many levels to your depth and subtlety that escape me entirely.
I can't help but suspect you were suggesting that the Seed might have actually "saved the world" had it flourished. WERE YOU???
Your answer to the question of whether or not coercion can truly be a method of "enlightenment" or "raising awareness" was this gem:
"Of course there was coercion, we wanted people to stay."
Wow, that is deep! Or was it sarcastic?
Yes, my delicate psyche was traumatized by the Seed. You call it "sitting in a drug rehab for a few months, a year, ?whatever." Yeah, sure. Come to think of it, that's all it was. I just had to sit around for a while. (Sarcastic.)
Hey John, I did raise sleep deprivation and mind control (constant haranguing, "Get out of your head!" "What are you thinking!" etc. etc. . . . the disallowance of a moment's private reflection) as salient issues. Will you ever address them, I wonder?
Oh wait a minute, you did address them, very succinctly:
"?Get out of your head,? simply was/is synonymous with ?Wake up and smell the flowers,? though I gather some of you had a problem staying awake period."
Yeah, what was wrong with some of us, that we couldn't stay awake? What was our PROBLEM? Hm.
As for the locked room and your heroin habit, yeah, I get it now. It sounds like The Seed was made for people like you, who had no life, who really did need a whole new ego structure in order to survive. If everyone who came to the Seed had been that desperate, perhaps it would have been a good thing.
But did you also have a desperate need to see all the high school "druggies" in the same light you saw yourself? (not sarcastic)
Finally, John, I keep wondering . . . what exactly WAS the "the potential of The Seed, the dream" that you refered to in your initial post to this site? Seeds all over the world, sledgehammering "brotherly love and be your own best friend" into unwilling adolescents? Or perhaps the whole world would have BEEN the Seed? People power tripping each other all over the place, punctuated by sanctimonious speeches about how much love they feel?
Yeah. I wasn't feeling very angry at you personally, John, as I said earlier, before you posted. But your posts do piss me off. Congratulations. Your own denial goes soooo deep. I doubt anything anyone writes here will ever get underneath it.
marcwordsmith:
As for applying the same level of scrutiny to ourselves that we do to the Seed, I don't think this is the forum for it. That "point" is a red herring. We apply scrutiny to our own selves in the privacy of our own lives, within ourselves and with our loved ones. This page is about the Seed; therefore that's what we're talking about.
rjfro22:
marcwordssmith,
It's easy to to rip people apart 30 something years ago. Get over John Underwood, he was just a very young man at the time helping people,
doing what he thought was right. You know exactly what " get out of your head meant" staying out of the shit, it meant no more and no less. John Underwood was just a small part of the seed, the seed was there before him and it was there after him. I was never close to John but I don't remember him ever demeaning anyone, I remember john had a sadness about him, at least that was my feeling, he was a bit serious. I hope he is doing well today, Now that I think about it John was a great guy, he help save lives, he dedicated part of life helping people, thats more then most of us can say, he didn't have to be there.
. We all know the seed worked for some of us and some feel it did us an in justice, well blame that on your parents that put you there. This site is beginning to get mean , I hate to see people leave it.
marcwordsmith:
Small correction: I'm not ripping John apart for 30 something years ago. I'm responding to his postings on this page, August and September, 2005.
Yes, you're right, John did seem sort of sad. He was not the worst staff member, not by a long shot. There were a few flaming sadists, but he certainly wasn't one. He was rather kind to me personally. He sang "Moon River" to the group, and he probably afforded us more than half the rare moments of genuine levity we enjoyed there. Okay. If I've introduced an element of meanness here, I was unaware of it. But maybe I'll back off.
I disagree with you though about the meaning of "Get out of your head." How do you know someone's "in the shit" just because they're looking spaced out and inward? But hey, we've been over that one, huh?
GregFL:
here you be!
Welcome back John!
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