simple response to John Underwood

[JaLong]

Marc...., I have learned that "getting out of your head" is just that. There are times still I find myself dwelling on something and not solving the problem. It's the same as "stop running Sh** on your head". The seed wanted us to think the same as everyone else, but we are grown now and hopefully think for ourselves. Sitting and stewing about something is just a waste of time. Know what I'm saying?? I'm glad you're here, but give John a break. I think it took him a lot of thinking before he ever wrote on this site. Can you imagine the private messages he must get, full of anger and wrath? I know he doesn't take it personally, yet it is still un-called for. We all had a rough time in the seed, but I'll say for myself, I am still drug and alchol free. Thank God!! I think John was telling others to forgive the past and the seed. That is what it is-- The past. Yes, we are shaped by our past, YET GOOD GOD people. Grow up!

[marcwordsmith]

Hi JaLong. Yeah, I know what you mean about stewing on things in an unproductive way, or obsessing about past hurts. I suppose you could call that "getting into your head" though I've never heard that expression since the Seed (other than in the sense of "they are trying to get into your head with their commercials" etc.). But since we agree that the term was used abusively in the Seed--i.e. to keep us from thinking for ourselves--where is the disagreement here?

Perhaps it is a good idea to forgive the Seed and let go the past; however, I don't think Mr. Underwood is in a position to tell anybody what they should do in this regard.

I also don't think I've been hard on him at all. I've been asking for some answers, and I feel pretty happy with what I've gotten so far. (Not answers exactly, but a very revealing response!)

Really, JaLong, why such sympathy for John Underwood? He perpetrated systematic psychological and physical abuse on teenagers, for many years. He was, in a very real sense, a career criminal. Nothing he is "suffering" from anyone's anger toward him on this website holds a candle to the abuse he dished out. I don't need to see him suffer, but frankly my sympathy gravitates more to some of the people here who've been hurt worse than I have by the Seed, or by Straight, or by some combination of circumstances in which the Seed played a major part.

If it makes you feel good to put a soft spot in your heart for Seed staff, I think that's fine. But are you being equally forebearing to your brothers and sisters who still feel unfinished and traumatized and are still smarting? I think telling people to "grow up" is more than a little condescending, my friend. And honestly, I don't think it works to tell people that.

I'm glad you feel you can put the Seed behind you with no rancor. But everyone is different. Just because you can do that doesn't mean that everyone else also can, or should. Peace. And thanks for your respectful challenge.

[marcwordsmith]

And by the way, JaLong, good for you for staying straight and sober and healthy. I respectfully acknowledge that you derived value from the Seed, if you say so.

[rjfro22]

Ft Lauderdale,
                        I can see why you would be fed up with this site,  I really enjoyed it for awhile  , people expressing there feelings about the Seed the good and bad. Some people are trying to make it far more then it was,  give me a break are these people paranoid schizo,  the seed was very simple and everybody in it were damn young , and the idea was we couldn't get over on each other. because we been there done that.
Yes some people should not of been there, but people of the time believed that pot led to smack.

Please don't stop posting, I really enjoy what you have to say and yes you have a great sense of humour and I am surprised some people don't see it.   If this site keeps going in this direction, they will alienate alot of us.
 :cry2:  :cry2:  :cry2:

[GregFL]

I would love to see Ft Laud continue posting, but please, the attacks against Ginger are juvenile and based soley on a difference of opinion, not on anything real.

Marc..welcome Back!

John......where you be?

 :grin:

[Antigen]

Wow, I do wonder what kind of PM's John's getting. I haven't sent any. And I seriously doubt anyone's sent any poison pen type PMs. Here's what I wonder; I wonder if my brother's all chummy w/ Lauderdale and John? I wonder if they PM each other just to talk shit about me? Not that I'm convinced of it. Just that I wonder; it wouldn't be out of line at all w/ my experience w/ Seedlings in general and my own brother specifically.

The clearest way into the Universe is through a forest wilderness.
-- John Muir

[Ft. Lauderdale]

Antigen,
 You are getting a little paranoid.  I emailed your brother back 2 times months ago, when he emailed me.  He said nothing bad about you.  He was more interested in what was going on now with me ect. I actually PMed JU for the first time yesterday.  I must admit I said you were getting under my skin and that was it.  The world does not evolve around you, or my world anyway.  
You and I have had totally different experiences with the Seed. You as a small child and me as a teenager and adult.  
I did think that you thought all kind of wierd shit was probably taking place, guess what its not. Have some tea or whatever you use to calm down.  No one is ganging up against you.  This site is still yours.  All yours.  I really would try to reconcile  but we have totally diffrent views and thats never going to change.  So I guess I just have nothing else to say.  I admit I have been a bit childlike in some responces, but so have you.  So..... I bid thee well. :nworthy: <[ This Message was edited by: Ft. Lauderdale on 2005-09-03 09:22 ]

[JaLong]

Marc, I don't have sympathy for John, I'd call it empathy. John was not the only staff member in the seed. I don't agree with you when you said,"he perpetrated systematic physhologial abuse." Sure I felt I was emotionally abused in the seed, but to blame it on John is going a little too far. Come on now, it was 1973 when my parents threw me in there. I was abusive to my parents and sisters, but mainly myself. No, I didn't have full awareness of that at the time, and not even during the 10 months I was in the seed. Yet, yrs later I could sit back and pick what I wanted to use, and throw the rest away. But guess what Marc? It was with the help of a counslor. I needed help when I got out of there, yet I had made some very close friends back then.I met my best friend when she got out and we have been friends now for 32yrs. To me that is a rarity, and a true blessing. With the help of this forum, I have been re-united with quite a few friends from back in the days. It feels as if these past 32 yrs did not come between people I learned to truely love for the first time in my life.
When I said "grow up", I was speaking to some people who CHOOSE to spew venom at each other. The way I see it is this. If people who were in the seed are still messed up and angry, they need some help. Anger only hurts the one who carrries it in their heart, not the people they are angry with. Know what I'm saying? I know some people are still pretty messed up. I can't even mention the seed without my sister telling me she doesn't want to talk about it. She took only 1 hit off a joint when she was 14, but my parents were told, if she doesn't come in I cannot go home. Now is that a non-founded threat or what? I shotgunned her with more weed, as I locked her in the bathroom, then she ever smoked. She hated the stuff.
So, Marc, I will be honest with you and I don't care what anyone else here or anywhere thinks about what I'm going to say. In 1979, 6 yrs after the seed, I accepted Jesus Christ into my life. Then and only then was I able to let go and let God. My faith has helped me get through a divorce from a cheating husband, being homeless 3 times with a month old baby and a newborn, going to college(@ 30) to get my RN, while raising two small children, and getting hurt at work, which caused me to have 11 surgeries, and being disabled since 1991, and a heart attack on top of that in 2001. So life isn't always a bed of roses, but it can still be beautiful with a positive attitude, and beliving in "Someone greater then myself Who has restored me to sanity". So, that's my story Marc. I have some fond memories of the seed, thanks to Susie Conners who took me under her wing at my old timers house where female staff lived. But I also had some horrid times in there. We agree on that don't we? Take care.

[Antigen]

On 2005-09-03 11:47:00, JaLong wrote:

If people who were in the seed are still messed up and angry, they need some help. Anger only hurts the one who carrries it in their heart, not the people they are angry with.

Is that also true of people who are angry about Halliburton's war in Iraq? People who, having researched the facts, are angry about Vietnam? Smedly Buttler, who was quite miffed over the boondogles of WWII?

Do you really think there's no such thing as justified anger? Sometimes, blithe acceptance is the most preverse response of all.

Let me go further. We (the uncaring, unknowing tax payors) have bombed half the planet over the past 50 years, including 40 years or more pounding on those tough mother fuckers at Vieques. We're currently funding the areal spraying of reformulated Agent Orange (Monsanto's Roundup w/ an added isotope to prolong exposure) of areas of So. America that most of us will never see before they're destroyed. This causes cancer and birth defects in the native and refugee population. And, we're told, it's all worth the effort to erradicate a few slect species of God's green herbs.  

Is there a Christian on this planet who understands that and thinks it's just fine? No? Then get ahold of Betty Sembler, the proud and sanctimonious professional Seed mother, and give her a piece of your mind, damn it! It's not the Colombian children's fault you can't keep the coke out of your pretty daughter's nose, damn it! Oh, don't care about brown ppl who have oil under them? Fine. How much more of this bullshit do you think these people will take before they quit waiting for American hostages to come to them and start striking US targets? Would that make it worth it to you?

Does it not make you angry that the people ordering these mass exterminations are safe and sound while your own dear children are not? Well, it pisses me off! And I think that's about the only sane response there is.

Who would believe that a democratic government would pursue for eight decades a failed policy that produced tens of millions of victims and trillions of dollars of illicit profits for drug dealers, cost taxpayers hundreds of billions of dollars, increased crime and destroyed inner cities, fostered widespread corruption and violations of human rights - and all with no success in achieving the stated and unattainable objective of a drug free America?


--Milton Friedman,  winner of 1976 Nobel Memorial Prize for economic science

_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
   10/80 - 10/82
Apostate 10/82 -
Anonymity Anonymous

[JaLong]

My, my Ginger,
Yes, there is a thing such as justifiable anger. And I WILL NOT get into a disagreement with you. The world and it's people are going to hell in breadbasket for all the crap that is going on right now. Yes, I agree We, the "great united states of america" don't belong in Irag, or anywhere else as far as I am concerned. Heck, the government does not even help the people right here, such as those who are suffering from Francine, including one of our own, Chris Lewis who lost his home. Should I be angry at the Gov. for making my brother-in -law take little white pills, be on the front line during Desert Storm, and is now sick? Should I feel anger about the genocide in Sudan, where we just sit and let it happen? Sure I feel some anger Ginger, but tell me, is that going to change a darn thing? NOT! If you choose to walk around feeling all of this anger about the state of the world, let me ask you something? Are you in Sudan being a shield to protect just one child? Are you in Irag being a shield for a child there, or have a pen pal you can write to and lift up one soliders day? I have 3. Are you in New Orleans helping people? Rant and rave and be angry all you want Ginger, but who is that going to help? Is it giving you peace Ginger?
I do what I can right here in my own backyard. Raising my children(and no, my pretty 3 daughters and son have not snorted powder up their noses). I am also an AIDS buddy, and have two buddies I see at least twice a week because their families have abandoned them. I have been a team parent for my daughter's softball team for 4 yrs, and I volunteer at the free Clinic here in downtown St. Pete. I'll say one more thing Ginger. If I didn't have children at home that I need to raise, believe you me, I'd be at the Red Cross being trained, using my RN liscence, to help at the triage places for our own poor, hungry, homless, and desolete Americans affected by Francine. So, my dear Ginger, take all of that anger you have, and find somewhere where you can make a difference. People need your help.

[marcwordsmith]

Hey JaLong

I'm going to respond to your second to last post above, in which you addressed me.

First of all, yes of course you're right--I cannot and do not blame the whole phenomenon of The Seed on John Underwood; he was just one guy.

More importantly though, I want to say I admire that when you knew you needed help in your life, you went and found the help you needed, whether it was seeing a counselor, or letting Jesus into your heart. You've had a tough road, and I respect your will and your determination to overcome terrible pain and huge challenges. I wish you health and peace, and I wish the same for your kids, who are lucky to have a mom with such an inspiring tenacious spirit.

I guess I also have to say something about your more recent post. It is highly commendable that you devote so much of your time and energy to helping others, but must you "come down" on Ginger for what you presume she doesn't do? You chided me for being unkind to John Underwood. I must ask you again to consider that many, perhaps most, of the people on this website are in pain, and we're all doing the best we can, and there is no point in comparing ourselves to others.

Sometimes I think this whole life is nothing but a healing journey. We're all looking for ways to heal our own pain, the pain of others, and our shared pain. You've done very well and you've been very brave. But please don't wield your life like a weapon, so that others should feel inadequate. Peace.

[Anonymous]

At least someone is doing something!!!!
Yep its Lybbi...
-----------------------------------------
Along the Gulf Coast
Trying to Search, Hoping to Rescue
Post-Katrina Conditions Are Overwhelming Even to Veteran FEMA Teams

By Sylvia Moreno
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, September 1, 2005; Page A12

LONG BEACH, Miss., Aug. 31 -- By mid-afternoon Wednesday, medical specialist Lt. Jose Arias walked into the rubble that was once this seaside community's old-money neighborhood and declared: "Worse than Andrew."

Arias, a paramedic in the Miami-Dade County fire department, should know. He is part of the Federal Emergency Management Agency's Florida Task Force 2 -- a team of search-and-rescue veterans of every powerful hurricane to hit the Southeast in recent memory. Andrew, Charley, Frances, Ivan and now Katrina: The team has worked them all.

 


Reporter's Query: Tell Us Your Story
The Washington Post and washingtonpost.com want to hear your stories about Hurricane Katrina.




Special Report -- In Katrina's Wake
Katrina Q& A: Cancellation Policies, Refunds and More
Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist Dies
In Texas:240,000 Evacuees Strain Capacity
What Went Wrong:Storm Exposed Disarray at the Top
Many Evacuated, but Thousands Still Waiting
More Stories

 
"Yeah, worse," echoed Lybbi Kienzle, the owner and handler of one of the most important members of the team: Josh, a Labrador-and-golden-retriever mix federally certified in search-and-rescue. "We just went through Katrina ourselves [in Florida], and we just knew they were going to get killed."

Divided into five squads, Florida Task Force 2 spent its first day along Mississippi's Gulf Coast performing its most important task: looking for trapped victims of Hurricane Katrina. Braving a heat index of 100 and carrying 40 pounds of rescue and survival gear on their backs, they located one cadaver -- a man buried neck-deep in rubble in Gulfport -- and capped about a dozen leaking natural gas lines. They walked door to door along a 63-block area just west of downtown Gulfport to check for trapped people and animals, and responded to emergency calls from local authorities.

"We're a small department," said Mike Brown, deputy chief of the Long Beach Fire Department. "It looks good when these guys walk in."

"This place," Brown paused for a moment as his eyes teared up and his voice caught, "has been devastated."

By Wednesday, 11 FEMA teams had responded to Mississippi's devastated Gulf Coast to assist local officials. Seven teams had traveled to Louisiana.

[GregFL]

Good Stuff Libbi!

When you done doing this most excellent important work, come visit us here some more on the forum...


 :grin:

[Antigen]

JaLong, there's a stark difference between what the Arab government is doing to the Sudanese natives and what AUC is doing to Colombian natives. In sudan, it's the Arabs and so it's up to the House of Saud to make it stop, though I do wish more Americans would take the time to understand how our alliance w/ the House of Saud contributes to their acquiring and maintaining the power to do what they're doing in places like Sudan.

In Colombia, AUC is the paramilitary death squad that started out w/ US funding, training and, by some credible accounts, hands on, warm American bodies and blazing guns. In those days, they called themselves Los Pepes and their only target was Pablo Escobar. W/ Pablo gone and his enterprise divided among his enemies, Los Pepes has grown, continues to receive US support, funding and cart blanch to go after FARC. It's well known that, just like FARC, AUC also relies heavily on illicit drug profits to fund their never ending civil war.

And they justify the funding and support in the name of the drug war. That's the US apologia for our ongoing involvement in So. America's dirty politics; we have to keep on killing and poisoning brown ppl in So. America for as long as it takes before rich white American girls lose interest in coke.

Just imagine if The Seed had effective policy and funding control of US forces. That's pretty much what's going on. It's pure hysteria. But, for some damned reason, the mainstream media and man on the street just doesn't question it.

And, here's the sticky part, if you support or neglect to call out DFAF and DPNA there in St. Pete, you're part of the problem. You know, from firsthand experience, how dangerously self deluded these people are. And you know very well that they're making public policy based on Program dogma and funded by billions in federal, state and local taxes. And, not only do you go along and continue to give them your support, but you have the self rightious audacity to scold me like a little child for saying something about it? Who the hell do you think you are, anyway?

But I suppose it just feels so good to do "something" and pretend that makes it all ok.

The introduction of a Creator has done our independence no good.
--Gore Vidal, author

_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
   10/80 - 10/82
Apostate 10/82 -
Anonymity Anonymous

[JaLong]

Marc,Thank you for your kind and gentle words. I really appreciate them. I know that a lot of people are still tramatized by the seed, and straight. I do feel for all. I am by no means standing in judgement of anyone here or on the outside. That is not who I am, and it is not my job to do so. I was not rebuking Ginger, just posing some questions to her. I was not attacking her. I'm not even sure I know her. I was stating some facts about our worlds messes, as Ginger always does, and my main question was asking what does anger solve? Nothing in my book. I like the saying, "you can get more from honey, then vinegar." I know for myself, if I remained angry at all the injustices done to me, alng with all of theinjustices in the world, I would not grow. I would be stagnant. I like to challenge myself, even if it causes me physical pain, or exhaustion. I learned in AA, when I use to go with my old boyfriend who just died in Feb, that "we are to share our experience, strength, and hope with each other." And "to reach out to those still suffering." That is why I like this forum, and that is why I share here. I am not perfect, nor do I claim to be. I use to be just a survior,(and always will be), but now I try to live life to the best of my capabilities. If any of my words have offended anyone, especially you Ginger, I sincerely apologize.