Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform > The Seed Discussion Forum

simple response to John Underwood

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marcwordsmith:
John, you wrote:

"Which brings me to allegations of physical abuse posted at this site. This was never acceptable or tolerated under any circumstances."

John, everybody knew that we were all deprived of sleep. Your statement above is silly. Remember the rule requiring us to shake each other awake, the rationale being sleeping Seedlings were only "trying to cop out of the rap"? Come on, John. I'll grant you that I for one was never beaten and never witnessed any of the extreme types of physical abuse testified to hereabouts, but sleep deprivation IS a well-known--possibly the very most basic--method of brainwashing.

As far as the other physical abuse is concerned,and the episodes that you, alas, couldn't have known about, I'd ask you to employ some of that rigorous self-honesty you so extol, and ask yourself whether or not The Seed created a ripe, condusive environment for such abuses to occur.

Last point: The Seed's notion of rigorous self-honesty was one-size-fits-all. Honesty was the first and most important rule, and the Seed told us what we should be thinking if we were to be honest. Again, can you not reexamine this premise today, and acknowledge that it may have been questionable?

What a shock to see you on this website! I check the page every month or two. I was in the Seed in 1972 and I remember you well. It was always a mystery to me, in retrospect, how former staff members held the experience in their own minds. I must say, I'm impressed by your eloquence and intelligence--I would never have guessed that you could be so articulate as you have shown yourself to be on this site.

And on the other hand . . . WOW! What a remarkably nicely structured set of justifications and rationalizations you have erected for yourself, and for your extensive involvement with this atrocious program.

And to top it off, you're calling us all a bunch of babies, because we don't know what REAL torture is, like the kind in Korean POW camps or what-have-you. You're still arrogant, John, still full of shit frankly, and that I'm sorry to see.

cleveland:
Marc,

I always enjoy your well-written postings here -  infrequent thought they might be!

I wish John would post again, though, too.

Watching Antigen and Ft. Lauderdale duke it out here - I do believe they are getting something out of it. Somehow, the truth for us will be revealed.

walter

Antigen:
Yup!  :nworthy:
It's our goddamn duty to get these people back on drugs so they can think for themselves again!!!
RTP2003
--- End quote ---

marcwordsmith:
Cleveland, thank you for your words. I appreciate your posts as well. I understand you hold the Seed experience differently from many of us, and I appreciate the complexity of your feelings as well as your sincerity.

Ginger, as always, thanks for hosting the show. And a shout out to you too, Greg!

I think I missed John Underwood by two or three weeks. I don't think he'll give us the satisfaction of returning let alone responding to us point by point. After all, he doesn't have to. He came, he saw, he farted stupendously once or twice, and he split. Maybe he feels abused here, like he's surrounded by mean people coming down on him. Understandable that he doesn't want to stick around. I wouldn't have stayed either, 33 years ago, had I been given a choice.

So we got what we got, and I think it's valuable. We got John Underwood's rationale in the written word, with all its pomp, its forcefulness and credibility as far as they go, its wildly glaring logical flaws, its self-defensiveness and incipient hostility. Just in case anybody still suspects the Seed may have been "right," in some fearful corner of their minds, we now have a document by which to measure the validity of that suspicion. I doubt Lybbi, Susie Connors, or even Art Barker himself could have made the case on behalf the Seed better than JU tried to. So there we have it.

Much love to all on this page.

Ft. Lauderdale:
Hey Marc,
"get out of your head" He posted today. Wake up maybe you are nodding off. :grin:

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