Should these types of Programs exist at all?

[cleveland]

I think this deserves it's own thread...

I have to answer the broad question of whether these programs should exist at all. First, let's define 'the program' in very basic terms that both advocates and detractors can agree on:

1. The program exists to change your behaviour and your will, to alter your initial resistance so that you eventually will voluntarily comply with the group.

2. The technique employed is peer pressure, whether flooding you with love, or with sanctions and disapproval.

3. The group has a heirarchy, strict rules, and dissent of any kind is not tolerated.

Advantages to 'the program':

Rapid, seemingly voluntary adherence to the rules; acceptance by the peer group causing an immediate rise in self esteem and group unity;
individual can resist 'temptatitions' offered by the world 'outside' the group, and may end addictions, win a battle, loss weight, or save their soul, depending on the goals of 'the program.'

Disadvantages to 'the program':

The individual must sacrifice self-interest to the interests of the group; the individual must sacrifice full honesty and self-awareness to what is acceptable by the group; over time, the individual may experience stress and be unable to function outside of the group or within the group, and may ultimately reject 'the program.'

Objectively, 'the program' has short-term advantages. On the other hand, over time, a black & white view of the world may be inadequate, and the person will have to modify their views or perhaps reject 'the program' altogether.

Finally, 'the program' is inherently un-democratic, authoritarian, and inflexible. There may be abuses of power, manipulations within the group, and extremism.

Short-term gain, long-term pain.

'The Program' may have useful, short-term utility, but over time, is generally unstable, as the individual begins to need to assert themselves against the group, and flaws within the group begin to emerge, as people inevitably change.

Perhaps I would want 'the program' to operate with my military, where group conformity and rapid response to orders is necessary. Would I want this with a teen? With my religion? With my government? Not me, though I understand that others do.

Walter (I have grown out of Wally Gator)

[Stripe]

I'm with you on this Walter.  It is a short-term gain that more often than not, ends up with longterm pain.

I know, I know, it can save an addict from death when the techniques are used proplerly, day in and day out for the remainder of a natural life.

But  I think that these techniques or self-mangement skills really, in the long run, choke personal growth.  Sure your grow in your program - grow deeper in the doctrine, but there is no deeper undertstanding of people or ideas that are different from or contrary to the doctine.  



 

[ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2005-08-15 09:22 ][ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2005-08-15 09:23 ]

[Antigen]

Actually, there are some pretty interesting comparisons between the Marines and cults. And those illustrate a couple over very important differences. First, a new recruit knows going in just what he's signing up for. More often than not, they're legacy recruits. And they can opt out. There are consequences, of course. But if a recruit gets into the middle of it and it becomes clear that they're not going to make it, that they'll be broken by it, neither they nor their commanding officers want them there. The objective of military training is to produce functioning, thinking, strong soldiers. They have no use in the field for broken, neurotic lunatics. If and when they discover that they are producing mental casualties instead of good soldiers, they take steps to correct their training issues, whether they be based in policy or personage.

I think it's not for me to decide for anyone else whether or not they should participate in this style of behavior modification. I stick on 1) that involvement should be voluntary and 2) it should be contingent on meaningful informed consent of the participant.

Oh, one other thing.

"All persons shall have full and free liberty of religious opinion; nor shall any be compelled to frequent or maintain any religious institution"--TJ

I think anyone would be hard pressed to come up with an objective definition of the Program that is not synonymous w/ religion. It is, after all, all about instilling a set of beliefs, a particular dogma. As such, I think it is unconstitutional federally and in most states to compel anyone to support any such program through public funding.

Question with boldness even the existance of a god; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.
--Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President, author, scientist, architect, educator, and diplomat

[wtaylorg]

The way I see it today, I truely wish I would have been one of the 10% who didn't get the Seed. You know, asked to leave. One of the failures. Instead, I gave up my soul, what i believed and felt was right, and more importantly the bond that is natural with my family
My Mom was a young 36 yr old woman with 2 out of control kids in 1976. My older brother was threatened with the Seed roughly 2 yrs before my sentence in 1978. He asked if he could attend a Kinks concert the might before his admission. Sometime during his being out of the house that night my Mom chnged her mind. A reprieve that has made the KInks, one of my brothers favorite bands to this day.
I wasn't so lucky a few yrs later.

During my Seed 78-85-yrs, if I could take back everytime I told my brother I didn't want to have anything to do with him unless he went to the Seed and got "straight", I would in a heartbeat. Especially considering my brother was straight already-through a program in Columbus, OH.
An AA based program that did it the right way, No false prophets.
The Seed knew this but told me HE still he was an a__hole because he hadn't been to the Seed.

I wish I could calmly analyze the pros and cons of the Seed.
But, I can't.

I have spent yrs rebuilding the relationship I have with my brother and mother. An understanding needed to be acquired on all our parts. But the difference is my family has only wanted me to be me.
The Seed never wanted me to be me. They only wanted a slightly dim-witted worker bee. No questions asked. I supplied.

I wish I could forget about Roger, LD, JG, others, EW. Any of the great, many brillant guys who were treated like crap by the Seed-I witnessed the treatment.

So, no, I see no place in this world for the Seed and it's ilk- the sanctimonious JU and others.

[marshall]

Wally...sorry, err..'walter' :nworthy:

[marshall]

Last week while sitting in the hospital waiting room (awaiting the birth of my grandson) I had an interesting conversation with an old friend of my daughter's. They've known one another since jr. high. We were discussing a tv character addicted to prescription drugs and she began telling me about her own personal drug ordeal. She'd never been into drugs as a teen (she's around 30 now).  A few years ago, she and her present husband began using cocaine. What began as occasional use quickly escalated into an expensive habit. They did the powder and smoked crack as well. Neither of them are what you might picture when you think of  crackheads. Both are professional, middle-class parents. She said they eventually maxed out all of  their credit cards purchasing drugs and partying with friends. They live close-by and her parents noticed something was wrong with her but had no idea what.

After a couple of years they reached rock bottom (pun intended) and realized they needed help. She went to her mother and confided in her...told her that she and her husband were addicted to crack and wanted help. Her parents didn't call any 12-step programs or detox centers. With a strong determination to free themselves from drugs and the loving support of her parents they were able to completely stop using and turn their lives around. They stopped hanging out with their old crowd and found new friends that didn't use coke. (this is when she renewed her friendship with our daughter)  They've been straight for 3 years now and finally dug themselves out of the financial hole. I was impressed with her story. They wanted to stop using coke and did. No steps, no slogans, no moral inventories, no reprogramming or counter-conditioning. No megalomaniacal ideas of taking over the world or forcing everyone to think the same. All freewill and no coercion. Nor do I believe they are the exception. Most people that want to stop taking drugs or find that they can't handle drinking make the necessary changes themselves.
-----------------
"Drugs are bad...mmmm...OK?"
---Mr. Mackey / Southpark teacher

[GregFL]

They do Marshall but  some don't. I really think some people need some kind of rehabilitation because they have compulsive personality disorder and need someone to basically hold their hand thru the recovery process.  Voluntary AA, NA, etc seems to work for some even tho the techniques used seem superficial and downright deceitfull to me.

That doesn't describe the majority of people however, nor does it excuse locking people up ( or even worse..children) in mass quantities and telling them that without their captivity they would be dead, insane or injail or eventuall hopeless addicts and indoctrinating these people to the level that they believe this self-serving lie.

[Anonymous]

Ginger
   Do you still live in Monessen, PA?

[marshall]

Sure, most people probably need some form of hand-holding or help and support to kick a habit like that. The woman I mentioned also had the help of a loving family. I wonder if more intensive programs like the Seed function as a substitute family for those from highly dysfunctional families that are unable to offer help with their abuse problem. I wonder if there's a correlation between those who are especially supportive of the Seed and family dysfunction? (Obviously 'dysfunction' is a relative term with no clear lines) I never felt that my own family was crazy or dysfunctional at all. I think this is one reason I didn't simply reject the core values and personality that I was given by my parents to embrace the 'family' of the seed and it's values. That may be one factor that kept me from fully "getting it"...thank goodness. Nor do I think it's a coincidence that those from troubled families tend to be more prone to join cults of various sorts. I can see where any sort of structured family group (like the seed) might be what some people need. But like real families, I think the healthiest "kids" are those that eventually grow-up and differentiate themselves as individuals. Even J.U. seems to meet that criteria, though he may not think so. His rejection of lybbi and art's control was probably a positive move for him. Robin, Ja long and others have mentioned that even though the seed helped them it was just as necessary to grow up and beyond the seed as well...in order to become balanced individuals. Just wish we as a society could come up with some rehab model or substitute family that didn't involve the type of thought-reform and coercion these progams embrace.

I know a guy that left his wife and child and joined a 'pro-drug' cult a few years ago. This group also spouted wonderful, uplifting ideals and lots of 'love'. He felt that he'd found his true home and real family. (meant to be here?) It was headed by a charismatic father figure that no one dared criticize or judge. After nearly a year of involvment this guy began to see thru the group's b.s. and became disillusioned. He finally left and returned to his family. After months of counseling he seems to be doing well now. I've read some message boards with their members and ex-members arguing back and forth much like they do here. Some defending the group and leader while others try to convince them of it's harm. Same old story whether it's an anti-drug cult or drug cult, it seems.