Brat Camp Producers Out of Touch With Reality

[Anonymous]

I was wondering if it makes you feel BIG and IMPORTANT to use foul language and insults. You sure named yourself correctly.

[Nonconformistlaw]

Anonymous said---
"Most TBSs are not based on isolation and punishment. You continue to post erroneous information and I continue to correct you."----

What FACTS do you have to support this statement?

Do you have first hand experience in these matters?

Or are you just using your personal opinions as a basis to "correct" someone else?

Anonymous also said ----"I wouldn't call SageWalk isolation and punishment either. Deborah, take off those filtering glasses through which you view everything and look at the reality."----

Are you basing this OPINION on television's portrayal of Brat Camp? If so, I cant help wonder if you are one of those people who's perception of reality is shaped entirely by television shows. Sad.

Differences of opinion are one thing, but having the nerve to "correct" someone just because you disagree is infuriating.

I suppose it makes YOU feel big and important to try to pass off your opinions as reality.

[Anonymous]

I have personal experience.  When you are in a school with a 100 or so other teens, going to classes, going to group therapy, playing sports, journaling......this is not isolation and punishment. There are consequences for not following rules- just as there are supposed to be in the outside world.  TBSs are based on getting to the source of the individual's pain and anger, not on isolation and punishment.

[Nihilanthic]

Isolation from the world thats NOT THE PROGRAM, anon.

Furthermore, the biggest problem (that I have at least, probably more) is the damn use of those LGA type seminars/workshops. Its culty as hell, not effective, and makes them spew out bullshit non-stop with the seminar-speak and be all about 'feelings', not thought. And its damaging to a lot of people.

Now, as far as punishment goes, you can punish someone within the framework of all that shit. AFAIK even Tranquility Bay lets them play soccer once in a while, but the 'group therapy' is basically torture.

Plus plenty of programs dont do that at all. The only way we know is what some anonymous twit tells us becuase therye so damned secretive and ISOLATED!

Come the millennium,

month 12,

in the home of greatest power,

the village idiot will come forth to
be acclaimed the leader.
--Nostradamus

[Nonconformistlaw]

Was your personal experience as one of those students, staff, parent, or a mere program advocate who only views programs by how they appear on paper, what? Please specify...I'm curious. In all fairness...my experience is that of a kid (now adult) that went through a highly abusive program many years ago.

Of course there are consequences in the real world for not following the rules, as there should be. And yes, kids should learn why certain rules are important. For example, stealing is a crime and you will go to jail for it, so in a program for instance, if a kid steals something, there should be appropriate consequences, just w/o punishment using isolation, abuse etc. So yes, its perfectly acceptable to teach kids the importance of following REASONABLE rules as long as those lessons are taught WITHOUT isolation, WITHOUT abusive punishment, WITHOUT extreme coercion & mind control...etc.

If your experience is based on one the few decent programs out there, then please explain that too. If that is your experience, quite frankly I would be skeptical, but all ears if it REALLY was decent.

BTW, most of the views around here ARE based on first hand experience. And, those experiences were far from the sunny idealistic picture you just painted.

True, not all programs are the same, but way too many of them employ very questionable tactics at best, while others blatently abuse kids, or completely break them down and terrorize kids to get them to follow their so-called ridiculous rules, which is UNACCEPTABLE.

No one is saying that kids should be disobedient little hellions who dont have to obey rules...but when isolation is used and when other punishments go far beyond reasonableness, to the point kids are scared to death, those methods are inappropriate, counter-productive, and destroys the children subected to it.

Treating kids like animals or criminals IS NOT therapy.

In my opinion, therapy should be communication, listening, feedback, suggestions, and dealing with a kid's anger and pain with compassion and understanding(nonexistant in my program experience). Consequences, if needed, should be humane and proportionate to real misdeeds, not imaginary misdeeds created by excessive and pointless rules.

[Deborah]

Oh? So we could round you up (against your will) and place you in a warehouse with 100 other people (whose company you may or may not enjoy); sever contact with your loved ones; no phone, tv, newspapers; and you wouldn't feel isolated or unjustly incarcerated?

And you wouldn't feel unjustly punished if your very limited contact with your loved ones or food was denied/limited as a consequence? Or if you had to sleep outside in a lean-to for a week? Or held in an illegal restraint? Or lost your month's supply of toilet paper?

And let's talk about those consequences for breaking the 'rules'. The program that abused my son called their rules 'agreements'. How much more indirectly manipulative could it get?

For all intents and purposes, these warehouses are nothing more than glorified, high-dollar psych hospitals. Really not much difference at all, except that some 'try' to avoid drugs and pediatric psych hospitals have stricter regulations and 'consequences' for violations- contrary to programs. Someone got the bright idea that if you called these facilities 'schools' or 'academies' you could avoid state 'rules' and self-regulate. Damn. They should be consequened for their ODD.

[Troll Control]

On 2005-08-11 14:30:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I was wondering if it makes you feel BIG and IMPORTANT to use foul language and insults. You sure named yourself correctly."

No, it doesn't.  Just pointing out the obvious.

It makes me feel the same as if I said "I ate breakfast, " or "The dog wants to come in."  My feelings don't change either way.

I guess the real question is how do you feel when people point out that you're obtuse?  Seems like it makes you want to lash out and shift the focus.

Have a great day!   :wave:

[Anonymous]

The things you are describing (Deborah) bear no resemblance to what occurs in MOST programs.  I wonder how much of them are figments of your imagination or your child's exaggeration.
There was no withholding of food, there was some access to newspapers and lots of access to books, there was plenty of toilet paper.

[Troll Control]

On 2005-08-12 07:18:00, Anonymous wrote:

"The things you are describing (Deborah) bear no resemblance to what occurs in MOST programs.  I wonder how much of them are figments of your imagination or your child's exaggeration.

There was no withholding of food, there was some access to newspapers and lots of access to books, there was plenty of toilet paper."

Exactly how many programs have you personally visited and verified your statement?

Were you IN a program?

If yes, which one?

It appears that you may need an education in discerning between facts and opinions.  You say "MOST" programs are not what Deborah describes, but can you verify this statement empirically?  

You seem to be stating that you have personally visited at least 51% ("most")of the existing facilities and have deemed no abuse (as described by Deborah) occurred in any of them.  

It sounds like you are opining, but have no facts to corroborate your opinion.

Please tell us how many programs you inspected and the names of those programs.

Thank You,
DJ

[Nonconformistlaw]

Anonymous said -----"The things you are describing (Deborah) bear no resemblance to what occurs in MOST programs. I wonder how much of them are figments of your imagination or your child's exaggeration."

For the sake of arguement, and without conceding my position, let's assume for a sec that statement is true....

That would mean, most dont but some do...essentially you are arguing and agreeing that these treatment program horror stories described by Deborah and others sometimes DO occur....

and if they occur at all, that is intolerable!

[Anonymous]

Any abuses in treatment are intolerable.  However, the position on this forum that ALL programs are terrible and abusive and ALL parents who send their kids to programs are bad parents who are giving up their kids for someone else to raise is ridiculous.  
Whenever someone tries to point our success stories from programs- whether it be a student or a parent- you just slam them, insult them, swear at them and accuse them of being brain-washed.
I think we can all agree that there have been abuses and that there have been bad programs- many of them out of the country. No parent would want their child in an abusive program.  There are kids who desperately need a program and need what you call behavioral modification.  There are plenty of adults who need behavioral modification!  Many of us have had to learn to modify some of our behaviors in order to keep jobs.  If we aren't mature enough to do so, we lose the job. Most teenagers who are having the substance, behavior and/or anger problems that lead to a program placement have not yet developed the maturity to understand what is going on inside of them and what the long term consequences of their actions can be.  They have stopped respecting and listening to parents and teachers- for various reasons.  The families have become dysfunctional and the parents are unable to help the teen.
There is no intent to send the kid off to be abused or raised by someone else.  The intent is to keep the teen safe while he or she gets therapeutic help, matures, and is ready to show respect for authority and society.

[Antigen]

On 2005-08-12 09:35:00, Anonymous wrote:

Many of us have had to learn to modify some of our behaviors in order to keep jobs. If we aren't mature enough to do so, we lose the job.

Sometimes we refuse to modify our behavior for reasons other than lack of maturity. I refused, over and over again, to play office politics. But it wasn't a lack of maturity that kept me from trashing someone else for my own benefit. It was a point of character that I learned early on; as a victim of such tactics as well as from good role models who I admired for their strength.

As a result, I've never worked in the same office for more than a year or two. Sucks, huh? No, not really. Instead, we get to work from home for good people who we can trust and respect. And we make a decent living at it, too. So, in the end, I really do not regret my stubborn refusal to mould myself into whatever kind of petty tyrant might have succeeded under those circumstances.

That's where I have a problem w/ coerced behavior mod. What if you're dead wrong and your kid is entirely correct? Never considered that possability, have you? It is unethical and fool hearty to remove that free will from another human being and then call it therapy.

The strength of the Constitution lies entirely in the determination of each citizen to defend it. Only if every single citizen feels duty bound to do his share in this defense are constitutional rights secure.
-- Albert Einstein

[Anonymous]

Are the kids who are stealing, wrecking cars, using drugs, ruining their educations, terrorizing family members with violence right? No-sorry, I didn't consider the possibilty that we were dead wrong and our kid was right.  
Well, good for you for refusing to play office politics.  Many of us who have jobs have to arrive on time, not fall asleep at work, complete assignments correctly, be respectful towards customers and many more things.  Is it really that much of an imposition for an employee to control his impulses enough to be a productive member of the work force?  We all have free will, and we can choose not to work, but if we do want to make a living, in most cases it involves some compromises.

[Troll Control]

"Whenever someone tries to point our success stories from programs- whether it be a student or a parent- you just slam them, insult them, swear at them and accuse them of being brain-washed."

That's simply not true.  In each and every case, I ask for specifics.

You say "My program was great."   I say, "Which one was it and when were you or your kid enrolled?"  This is where the problems with the dialogue begin.

Every single time, to a person, the program supporter REFUSES TO GIVE DETAILS, and hides behind the excuse "I don't want to compromise my identity."  This is a lame excuse used solely to avoid having to speak in factual terms.

So, I'll ask you , anon, in which program did you enroll your child, when, and for how long?

If you'll be kind enough to answer that question, we can talk about your child's diagnosis, treatment plan for that diagnosis, and the particulars of the facility's program.

I think what you'll find is that people on this board are intelligent critical thinkers.  What bothers most program supporters is that the folks who respond to their fallacious arguments can't be snowed over with B.S. "program one-liners."

So, please, do tell.  Which program, when and for how long?

[bandit1978]

Anon- name your program