Some insight(s)

[GregFL]

I think it is important here to point out that John U and John Ft Pierce are two different people.

Great thread!  I sure wish John U would come back and talk some more.

I have already learned some things and would like some more dialogue here.

John, your participation here cannot be easy, but please believe me when I tell you it is greatly appreciated by me and everyone else.

  Thank you again.

 Please find the time and patience to give us some participation  and understand that we all wil not agree or get on a staff worship parade here...but nevertheless I am excited as hell at what you can contribute to the people that want and need answers.

[John_FtPierce]

The anonymous poster who mistook me (John_FtPierce) for John
Underwood, does have a very important point that I would like to
elaborate on.


... AA NEVER locks you up involuntarily, "come down on you" by your
"peers" and makes you publicly confess to your crimes and sins and ...


Yes, I know a lot about AA, in later life I spent 6 years there too.
Voluntarily.  No one made me, I went myself, sought out a meeting and
went.

While AA and NA (narcotics anonymous) puts up with some amount of
people being there due to court orders, I would say that they don't
particularly like it.  In my time with AA, people who were there from
the courts never lasted.

The main reason for going to AA is that one has reached their "own
personal low" point in life.  I would say that the belief within AA is
that you can not help someone until they reach that point.

I can remember people coming to AA, not having reached that point,
dropping out, and years later returning, to become life long strong
individuals.  I remember my "sponsor" talking to me about someone who
had dropped out.  Saying, that it was o.k., that they now know whats
at AA and that if they ever really need it, they know AA is there.  I
think that is true of the court ordered people too.  They come in, see
whats there, drop out.  And if they make it in life, great, otherwise
AA is there.

If I had a time machine, and could go back and changed one thing about
the seed, it would be this: people should have only have been there
*voluntarily*.  Not forced for any reason, parents, courts, whatever.
I think that the seed in the very earliest of day was like that.

Maybe my experience there was positive because I sensed this.  After
being there for a short while, the idea of being forced to do anything
was not part of it for me.  I was happy to be there.  I still don't
understand myself on this though.  I don't think I ever have hit "my
own personal low".  I certainly wasn't close to it when I went to the
seed.  And later, when I went to AA, I don't think is was even close
then either.  I was low then, but not that low.  The fact that I don't
have to get that low to know, I attribute to the seed.

Maybe I just see a better life due to my time in the seed.  I don't
consciously use the principles, the steps, the moral inventories, any
more.  Its more just a part of me now.  I do spend a lot of time
thinking about myself, and others.  Trying to understand.  A guess
that could be construed as a moral inventory, whatever.

I love life these days.  Even the bad parts.  I don't feel that I've
been to a gulag, brainwashed, or anything else.

I'm one of the freest thinkers I know.  Not bound by any of the usual
limitations: religion, prejudice, social pressures.  I look anyway I
want, dress anyway I want, keep any friends I want, do anything I want
to.  

I don't feel that drugs or drinking is necessarily the problem.
Sometimes they are a symptom, but not the problem.  Like my old AA
sponsor would say: "Alcoholism is not a disease of the mind but a
dis-ease of the mind.  If you are not at ease with yourself, you
drink."  Or smoke dope until you can't feel, or do harder stuff until
you can't feel.  I focus on this, not the drugs or alcohol.

Could it be that many of the people who are anti-seed want to do their
drugs?  I say, go ahead, do your drugs, drink.  If you are at ease
with yourself, it won't be a problem.  If you are not at ease, it
probably will become a problem.  Drugs and alcohol are not the
problem.  Its this other thing, the dis-ease, that is the problem.

I personally think that pot should be legalized.  Probably a lot of
other drugs too.  I withhold judgment on some, very additive, drugs
like cocaine/crack and crank.  These really are just too dangerous.
Heroin is bad news too.  I volunteered for many years in soup
kitchens, keeping my finger on the pulse of the street.  I saw just
too much badness from crack.  Crank is just now starting to hit my
area, but the initial reports from the street are real bad.

And again I would like to apologize to anyone who feels hurt from the
seed.  But, please, please, keep posting your feelings and
experiences.


-- John


[ This Message was edited by: John_FtPierce on 2005-08-06 19:30 ]

[GregFL]

On 2005-08-06 18:55:00, John_FtPierce wrote:



If I had a time machine, and could changed one thing about the

seed, it would be this: people should have only have been there

*voluntarily*.  Not forced for any reason,

Amen to that one John Ft Pierce!

Hey, were you ever on staff?

If so, please start another thread and tell us about it.

[Antigen]

John, thanks, I deeply appreciate that. I also want to pile on in thanking and welcoming John U. and to reiterate that I know Art and all the staff's intentions were good. So were those of all the parents, including my own. If anybody's looking for a cackling bad guy somewhere at the root of this, wringing his hands and gloating, you'll never find him, he doesn't exist. It's all about good intentions gone awry.

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of it's victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busy-bodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those that torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."--
C.S. Lewis, God In The Dock

The internet interprets censorship as damage and routes around it.
--John Gilmour

[John_FtPierce]

On 2005-08-06 19:22:00, Antigen wrote:

... and to reiterate that I know Art and all the staff's intentions were good. So were those of all the parents, including my own. If anybody's looking for a cackling bad guy somewhere at the root of this, wringing his hands and gloating, you'll never find him, he doesn't exist. It's all about good intentions gone awry.

And Amen to this Antigen!

I don't think any of us are God, we are all falable people.  I don't think the seed was perfict.  There is no way it could be, it was created by people for people.  Yes, there were problems.  But I try to look past these human failings.

GregFL, no, I was never staff.  Way too young then.

[GregFL]

Could it be that many of the people who are anti-seed want to do their

drugs?  

I can only speak for myself and the answer is a resounding NO.

My father and I have had a very difficult relationsip since the seed, but one thing he did teach me was if something causes you more harm than pleasure, don't do it.

Pot stresses me out and makes me paranoid. I haven't touched anything else for over 20 years and don't intend to.

If marijuana was a positive thing in my life I would do it. It is not and I have no interest in smoking a joint and obsessing over my shortcomings for three hours. It makes me feel bad..ie: it causes me more pain than pleasure.

Nowadays a glass of white wine (red was preferred but it stains your teeth) occasionaly is about all I do. I don't get drunk. I don't get high.

Drugs have NOTHING to do with my observations about my childhood seed experience,and in fact since we have gone there I will make this observation...the vast majority of you "the seed saved my life" people have spent your lives battling acohol or drug addiction/compulsion issues.  IF the seed saved your life, why did you do the coke and heroin later in life? Why did you need commitment to other rehabs...why did your life desinegrate around a substance abuse problem?

I know your answer already about setting the groundwork for your later recovery..but I call a big BULLSHIT on it.

Sorry....just calling it as I see it.

[John_FtPierce]

GregFL,

Please re-read my earlier post.  I state that, no, the seed did not save my
life.  I am not, nor ever have been, much of a drug or alcohol user at
any time in my life.  Before the seed, after the seed.  Before going
to AA after going to AA.  Or now.

I remember being in AA, it really was somewhat embarrassing.  I made a
joke about my being there: Its like going to weight watchers when your
are really only 5 pounds over weight.  Being there, in AA was amazing.
To see people who had absolutely destroyed their whole lives with
alcohol.  To see them put it back together.  And me, being there, for
whatever little reason.  Really, I think I was lonely.  AA people
understand seed people.

I truly think I would *not* have a drug or alcohol problem with out
the seed or AA.  I still maintain that I just wanted a better life.  I
don't even like to use the word "recovery".  Recovery from what?

Funny, today, I drink a little, and one of my best friends is AA.  He
knows me, my whole history, we talk some times.  I hang out with the
AA people.  They know I drink a little.  No biggy.  Just good people,
real good people.  I've got another friend, severely alcoholic.  I've
talked to him about things.  He's content the way he is.  I'm a little
sorry for him, but not too much of a biggy either.

I've got another friend, he's Muslim.  Doesn't drink or anything.  But
he is very unhappy, not at ease with life at all.  Reminds me of the
"dry drunk" people talk about.

Its not about the drugs or alcohol, its that other thing, the dis-ease
with life.


-- John

[Antigen]

Wow! Thanks for giving me the heads up on your update, John. Glad I didn't miss this.

On 2005-08-06 18:55:00, John_FtPierce wrote:

Could it be that many of the people who are anti-seed want to do their
drugs? I say, go ahead, do your drugs, drink. If you are at ease
with yourself, it won't be a problem. If you are not at ease, it
probably will become a problem. Drugs and alcohol are not the
problem. Its this other thing, the dis-ease, that is the problem.

I personally think that pot should be legalized. Probably a lot of
other drugs too. I withhold judgment on some, very additive, drugs
like cocaine/crack and crank. These really are just too dangerous.
Heroin is bad news too. I volunteered for many years in soup
kitchens, keeping my finger on the pulse of the street. I saw just
too much badness from crack. Crank is just now starting to hit my
area, but the initial reports from the street are real bad.

Well, I have to agree w/ both you and Greg on this. Though I'm no tea totaler, and I know that many pro-program ppl (including XA devotees) take that as prima facia evidence that everything I say or do is a manifestation of my progressive, fatal disease, that really has nothing to do w/ my recollections or opinions of the program.

I've spent a good many years now looking into the entire troubled parent industry. And I've found it very enlightening. There are obvious and quite objective differences among the programs. But there are certain constants as well. So take away the warehouse, replace it w/ the Utah desert. Eliminate the AA dogma and replace it w/ Mormon dogma. Give the staff Earth names and pretend it's all based in native American mythology; whatever, change and rearrange the window dressing any way you like, then look at the similarities that remain.

In a nutshell, Lifton and Singer's criteria for thought reform and large group awareness type regimens accurately describe those similarities. That would be true even if I were three sheets to the wind.

I also think that pot should never have been prohibited in the first place. Frankly, I don't think any drug should be criminally prohibited. But not because I think drugs are good and people should do more of them. To the contrary, I think all drugs are potentially harmful. And there's just no better way than criminal prohibition to make them more dangerous, more harmful, more accessible to children or more profitable to criminals and terrorists. I can almost say that I agree w/ everything Howard Woodridge has ever said on the topic. See http://leap.cc/ (that's Law Enforcement Against Prohibition)

I do wish people would be more careful about legal drugs, too. We're now just starting to see the long term effects of benzos on an aging population and we have NO clue what to expect or how best to manage the fallout. But so damned many people go through life believing that, if some stranger w/ a license gave them permission to consume ungodly daily doses of psychotropics, why then it must be safe or they wouldn't be allowed to do it.

That's SO wrong! Fact is, the only distinction between legal pharma drugs and illegal or strictly controled drugs (like alcohol and tobacco, which we treat like fire arms) is that the illegal ones cannot be patented. Methamphetamine is legal, provided you have a Rx. Cannabis is not, unless you live in a free country who's national character and prosperity allow them to tell the US to fuck off.

I believe that when I die I shall rot, and nothing of my ego will survive. I am not young, and I love life. But I should scorn to shiver with terror at the thought of annihilation. Happiness is none the less true happiness because it must come to an end, nor do thought and love lose their value because they are not everlasting.
--Bertrand Russell, British philosopher, educator, mathemetician, and social critic

_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
   10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;

[Antigen]

btw, here's a better link on Howard

http://leap.cc/howard/

You know, if Mama Cass Elliot would have shared that damn sandwich
with Karen Carpenter, they would both still be alive today!!!!!!!

--chongo

[GregFL]

Its not about the drugs or alcohol, its that other thing, the dis-ease

with life.

Well...it certainly can be when your life spirals out of control around a substance abuse problem

But I agree..coming to peace and finding "ease" or peace in your life is the trick. Learning what makes you happy and then setting out to do it is part of the trick...as is learning what ails you and avoiding it.

Life can be so good or so painfull.  The trick is to go to the good and avoid the bad.

imo....

[Stripe]

<
The seed was a cult. Every cult has "positive" goals and paths one can take mixed in with the love bombing and behavior modification techniques. Big deal. The seed didn't invent "honesty, love  and awareness" but instead bastardized  these terms into something barely recogizing their true intended meaning.







"

Hey, whoever you are, I could not agree more.  
I guess there will always be a great divide on the question of the true value of that program - program being the operative word.

[Robin Martin]

John Underwood,YOU ROCK! Always did and still do!

:nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  ::kiss::

[Anonymous]

I note the genuflecting of the above-post with a wicked snicker.  :lol:

[Stripe]

Mr. Underwood:



YOU WROTE:  The inability (or unwillingness) to separate personalities and methodology from what The Seed offered was never a problem for me, I was lucky I guess. I got it from day one when I was still in the front row with the cotton in my mouth.



I REPLY:  I read your comment here and I wonder whether you really got it or you just succumbed to the pressure and ate up the dogma much more quickly than the arrogant, self-centered, disrespectful, inconsiderate children who made up the majority of the seed?s population.  I think perhaps it?s the latter.



YOU WROTE:  I am not omnipotent, nor was anyone I worked with. Despite popular belief, we did not know everything that occurred away from The Seed.



I REPLY:  I?m not so sure you know the meaning of the words you use and it makes a great difference.   Don?t you mean ?omniscient? ? as in knowing what you were doing?  As in knowing that you were charged with the responsibility for the safekeeping of hundreds of children and teenagers?   As in knowing, from your own personal experience, that perhaps the seed was not all goodness and light?



YOU WROTE: Personally, I had no problem coming down on those whose disruptive personalities were defined by arrogance, self-centeredness, lack of respect and consideration of others. I had a very low tolerance for self-indulgent, immature, unnecessary and inappropriate behavior. That hasn?t changed. Stupidity always carries a consequence.



I REPLY:  I too, see that nothing much has changed.  Did it ever occur to you that perhaps the program you espoused, in some cases, was wrong and that is why people responded with what you claim was ?stupid? behavior?  That perhaps you were simply a cog in the money-wheel machine of a drug rehab business and it was really only about the money?  Could you have been so blinded by a dogma you needed to believe in that you could not to see it?  So blind and stupid that you would not or could not to see that some of the children there were not addicted to anything? Yes, John, stupidity does have consequences, doesn?t it?  I think you can read these message boards here and see the consequences of what some independent professionals in the psychiatric and medical field would deem the seed?s stupid behavior.  



YOU WROTE:  I wrote earlier of my initial disdain so I will close by commenting on the characterizations used by some to relate The Seed experience.



I REPLY:  I see now, again by your own choice of words, this time the word ?disdain,? that you really do believe that you are above it all.   Then and now.  But I?ll venture to guess it?s a protection mechanism that works well for you. But it?s old, so loose it and really embrace the self-honesty you claim to live by.



Mr. Underwood, even acknowledging that some say you did good work at the seed, I am glad that I did not listen to you.  My internal sense of danger operated well and I was able to protect myself from you and the others like you.   It would have been a pity to have wasted my life following the premises of one who is so undoubtedly and obviously single-sighted and yes, to use your lexicon, stupid. You and the others at the seed who terrorized members with the likes of your derisive mumbo-jumbo were the boogie men in my closet.  But the really great thing about your appearance here is that your comments turned on the light and  KAPOW!! No more boogie men.  How freaking cool is that?  

You are just a regular guy, just as happy, sad and full of shit as rest of us - struggling to get by and stretching to embrace the entirety of our lives, the good and bad.    



Have a nice life, John Underwood.  Thanks for putting yourself out there.  You never knew me and we never had the pleasure of a personal introduction.  We may always disagree in principle but you have helped me to close the door on a chapter of my life that has long needed closing.

[TRUCKER]

John Underwood,

Thanks for caring ! It made a difference for me.

TRUCKER