Author Topic: Some insight(s)  (Read 36323 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Some insight(s)
« Reply #30 on: August 08, 2005, 08:13:00 PM »
I also would like to express my gratitude to John for posting his frame of reference on the Seed. John was one of the many staff members that I initially feared, grew to understand, to admire and respect. John, you were such a huge part of my "getting straight", getting honest, growing up and eventually out & beyond....Thank You... I am so appreciateive that I am able to after all these years say that; Thank You...

Even during my times of additional "research" on addiction, I never really abandoned the things that we learned at the Seed, honesty especially self-honesty is paramount. When I lost the ability to see myself as others saw me is during the times when I was truly lost...

The experiences that I remember the strongest at the Seed were the ones that were based in love, sharing & caring, kindness becomes more meaningful as you get older. The feeling of electricity during the open meetings, the fantastic talents so many of us shared and displyed during the Holiday parties. I have reestablished a number of contacts with people who were in the program at the same time I was and we have shared our stories our tales of triumph, successes, failures, sadness, and pictures. Pictures of young fresh-faced kids with hope and light shining in their eyes, pictures of laughter, comaradarie, things that were real and can't be conned or faked.

Alot of hoopla seems to be made over the names and numbers that come up of seedlings or ex- who came to a bad end, suicide, overdose, etc... but look at the number of kids who went thru the program, I talked with Greg about it and we thought is was probably 4-5,000 kids in the St Pete area alone and then the ten to twelve names come to mind that have died or killed themselves. That is incredibly small percentage of people, I would even say that it is nowhere near the percentages found in society at large. One thing I have to remember is that most of us who went into the program where damaged at worst or had issues of varying degrees / subjects at best. I am not surprised at all by the stories of how our seedlings lives have played out, I look at my own... 15 jobs over the last 25 years, 2 marriages, one quick, one with kids & messy, then later in life (30's) finding myself drawn back to AA, God, the things that help center my life again.
Sound familiar? It's called life...you either grab it or it grabs you.

And I am thankful to the Seed and in part to John Underwood that in a very large way they helped me overcome & get past that self destructive period in my young life and managed to keep me straight & sober until I had a little more life experience behind me, and could possibly make different decisions about my actions / behaviors.

"The program", your program, my program, beleive me in some way or another everyone is working their program, the important thing is to get up everyday and do it... Embrace here & now, focus on the positive, don't dwell on the past in a negative or self-pitying way, there is not a thing we can change about it.

Thanks again John for your courage, your honesty, your caring, your love, 32 years ago and now. Oh & by the way you still sound like a really cool dude.

Chris Lewis
Seed 1973 -75
AA 1991 -
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Some insight(s)
« Reply #31 on: August 09, 2005, 10:42:00 AM »
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Some insight(s)
« Reply #32 on: August 09, 2005, 11:14:00 AM »
Sweet, how biting, sardonic & cool
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Antigen

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12992
  • Karma: +3/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://wwf.Fornits.com/
Some insight(s)
« Reply #33 on: August 09, 2005, 12:16:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-08-08 17:13:00, Anonymous wrote:

I talked with Greg about it and we thought is was probably 4-5,000 kids in the St Pete area alone and then the ten to twelve names come to mind that have died or killed themselves. That is incredibly small percentage of people,


Assuming we know about all of them and are estimating the total # of seedlings somewhere in the right ballpark, that's roughly 20 times the averate for the area. Here's one source:

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:hm ... 0target=nw

It comes down to about the same thing no matter which agency or data set you reference.

We ought to be grateful that our government monopoly schools are such a failure. If today's 18 year olds could do arithmetic, they'd be out buying enough rope to hang everybody over 40.
--Alan Handleman on Social Security



_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
   10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
~ Crosby Stills Nash & Young, Sweet Judy Blue Eyes

Offline Antigen

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12992
  • Karma: +3/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://wwf.Fornits.com/
Some insight(s)
« Reply #34 on: August 09, 2005, 12:31:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-08-08 17:13:00, Anonymous wrote:

One thing I have to remember is that most of us who went into the program where damaged at worst or had issues of varying degrees / subjects at best. I am not surprised at all by the stories of how our seedlings lives have played out, I look at my own... 15 jobs over the last 25 years, 2 marriages, one quick, one with kids & messy, then later in life (30's) finding myself drawn back to AA, God, the things that help center my life again.
Sound familiar? It's called life...you either grab it or it grabs you.



Yes, that sounds very familiar. Sounds like half my family and a whole lot of other program vets, grateful or not.

Me? I stumbled at first. Thought I was in love, had a baby then realized that the wonderful, thoughtful, compassionate person I was in love with didn't exist in that crack head's body. So I left, got a job, took on a roomate, eventually met my life mate, married, two more kids.

I must admit that it took me a couple of years to realize that constant confrontation, suspicion and accusaion was no way to be a wife. But I did rid myself of that vestige of Program behavior and thinking as soon as I realized what I was doing. Thank God my husband is a patient and understanding man. Most men would not have put up w/ that lunacy for long.

No divorces, no therapy, no XA, no despondancy. Every day, I'm still just glad to be free and fiercely protective of my kids' freedom of mind.


Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.
-- Albert Einstein

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
~ Crosby Stills Nash & Young, Sweet Judy Blue Eyes

Offline GregFL

  • Posts: 2841
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Some insight(s)
« Reply #35 on: August 09, 2005, 02:09:00 PM »
Funny you would say that. I spent about 10 years thinking confronting people that were "full of shit" was a good thing and often got in people's faces over little to nothing.

Also, For many years I was inapropriately "open and honest" with people who hadn't earned the right to know intimate knowledge about me. Very often this backfired in awefully painfull ways.

I thought these behaviors were actually a socially acceptable and productive  way to behave in the real world.

They are not. I had a very hard time attracting and keeping friends and partners until I figured this out.  

Another chapter of...

 "seed gifts I could have lived without".
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline marshall

  • Posts: 180
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Some insight(s)
« Reply #36 on: August 09, 2005, 02:23:00 PM »
------------------------------------
Quoted by John Underwood:
" The inability (or unwillingness) to separate personalities and methodology from what The Seed offered was never a problem for me, I was lucky I guess."
-------------------------------------

The stated ideals of the Seed were certainly laudable. Nearly every major world religion embraces them to an extent. In reality, means / methodology cannot be separated from ends / ideals. The spanish conquistadors wanted to make sure that the american indian babies they found didn't go to hell. A very good intention and laudable ideal. They went about assuring this end by first baptizing the infants into the christian faith and then promptly bashing their heads against a rock. Thus assuring they would have no chance to fall into sin. The same high ideals were present as the inquisition used torture to save the souls of heretics. The ideal of marxist communism was a classless society where no one would starve or want. To achieve this ideal, millions were imprisoned and butchered.
Last week CNN had a segment on a church that has started a group similar in many ways to the seed. The purpose of this group is to convert gay teens into straight teens. Parents are forcing their children into this group. It uses peer-pressure and marathon meetings to make the kids straight. They interviewed some of the kids who spoke highly of the program and claimed they only chose to be gay because of the attention it gained them. Now, they were straight and happy. They also spoke of keeping a "moral inventory".The same methodology used by the seed can be applied to most anything, good or bad. You could coerce and pressure kids into accepting any belief system.
When we make any ideal into an absolute and conclude the means justify the ends, the most horrific consequences usually follow. Art and the seed staff, including yourself, made the ideal of getting kids off drugs and changing attitudes into an absolute. Any technique seemed justified to achieve the desired goal. It is precisely the methodology used by the seed and other peer-pressure behaviour modification programs that I find repugnant...not the stated ideals of honesty, faith, etc. By whatever pretty name we choose to call it, it is coercive thought control.


----------------------------------------
Quote: "We thought it was conceived and based in conceit, ...we thought it was dangerous!"
----------------------------------------

Funny how you can easily see this in other, nearly identical programs. The Seed too was conceived in this basic conceit that Art and his partners knew what was best for kids. What made Straight dangerous is the same thing that made the Seed dangerous. The use of powerful thought-control techniques on adolescents to achieve a desired personality modification.

------------------------------------------
Quote: "Those who use this site solely to spout venom for its own sake, and thrive on the venom of others, probably should stop here."><"comparing the experience to Korean brainwashing facilities or gulags, speaks volumes about who you are, and is reflective of the spoiled, self-indulgent mind set you still carry, and your ridiculously exaggerated sense of self-importance"
-------------------------------------------


You seem to be spouting a little venom of your own here. The comparison to gulags and korean brainwashing has nothing to do with the physical conditions of the seed as compared to those places. You've missed the point entirely. Again, it is the use of coercive mind-control and behaviour modification that is common to these. The use of re-education camps in communist countries amounts to the same thing. The purpose is to modify the indiviuals thinking and behaviour in order to bring it inline with the ideal. Whether this ideal is communist propaganda or Art's idea of what a straight person should be is irrelevant. As far as a self-indulgent mindset goes...I, for one do not ride around in a chaffeured limo or own any yachts.
Like others here, you  have criticisms of Art


--------------------------------------------
quote:"his oft embarrassing showboating, sometimes bordering on buffoonery,"
--------------------------------------------


 and the later Seed too. I would hope you would also find fault with the later practice of staff members determining marriage partners and whether a woman should abort or not. Or the blatantly sexist idea that women should sew and cook while men should pursue carpentry or mechanical work.

-----------------------------------------------
quote:" gratitude and humility, nurtured to fruition with unwavering, rigorous self-honesty, that hopefully lead to greater self awareness, was the order of business at The Seed to me."
------------------------------------------------


The unwavering self-honesty was applied well to our past before we entered the program. Sometimes to the point of exageration of our bad qualities and ignoring of any redeeming qualities. However, this honesty wavered considerably when it came to examining the program itself. Real honesty may well have revealed that we were substituting straight images for druggie images, one type of conditioning for another. We went from conforming to one group to conforming to another. The pressure to conform to the seed's dress code, haircuts, lingo and beliefs (aura's, astrology, destiny, etc.) was stronger than that exerted by any supposed druggie culture. Perhaps honesty would have revealed that Art often suffered from an inflated ego himself. And that real self-awareness can not be the product of coercion or conditioning of any sort, however high the ideals.

----------------------------------------------
quote:"Nevertheless, I do congratulate Greg and Ginger for providing a forum that allows all opinions to be heard."
-----------------------------------------------

Yes. It's wonderful isnt' it? Here, all sides can be discussed. Dissenting views are welcome. Unfortunately, the Seed didn't allow any of that. I have no axe to grind with you personally. To one extent or another we were all both victims and perpetrators. I took in newcomers, related in group and did my part of the brainwashing too. You maintain that those on this website somehow didn't 'get it'. An alternative explanation might be that we 'got it' and chose to get rid of it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any organization be formed to lead or to coerce people along any particular path. You must climb towards the Truth. It cannot be \'stepped down\'

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Some insight(s)
« Reply #37 on: August 09, 2005, 02:33:00 PM »
Do you suppose we will hear back from John Underwood?  I'd be surprised, but it would be good if he "manned-up" and replied.  

It won't make a difference in my life, but it would be interesting to see if he responds to challeges as well as the thank yous and boot kissing.

I'm glad that we were able to have some closure with the man, such as it was.  One down, several to go.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline GregFL

  • Posts: 2841
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Some insight(s)
« Reply #38 on: August 09, 2005, 02:39:00 PM »
Marshall....


I would gladly sign my name to your post. It was well thought out, non abrasive, on topic, on point, and clearly stated facts about the experience that get lost in all the Testimonial type post.

Great job.

 :tup:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Antigen

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12992
  • Karma: +3/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://wwf.Fornits.com/
Some insight(s)
« Reply #39 on: August 09, 2005, 04:17:00 PM »
Ditto. Marshall's the real grown up around here.

If you want to get together in any exclusive situation and have people love you, fine- but to hang all this desperate sociology on the idea of The Cloud-Guy who has The Big Book, who knows if you've been bad or good- and CARES about any of it- to hang it all on that, folks, is the chimpanzee part of the brain working.
--Frank Zappa, American musician

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
~ Crosby Stills Nash & Young, Sweet Judy Blue Eyes

Offline cleveland

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 410
  • Karma: +0/-1
    • View Profile
Some insight(s)
« Reply #40 on: August 09, 2005, 08:29:00 PM »
Absolutely. Well said.

I do wish John would respond. I would bet he won't. I'm glad Ginger and Greg had a chance to speak one-on-one with him, and have some dialog with him. But in my experience, those who have fixed ideas reject contrary views.

Maybe someday, he'll be back. And wouldn't if be great to hear from some others!

By the way, I know I tend to take a middle of the road path. Wasn't it Art who used to say, if you walk in the middle of the road you'll get run over? Perhaps that's true, but I reject extremes  and embrace the middle.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
ally Gator

Offline GregFL

  • Posts: 2841
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Some insight(s)
« Reply #41 on: August 09, 2005, 08:47:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-08-09 17:29:00, cleveland wrote:

wish John would respond. I would bet he won't. I'm glad Ginger and Greg had a chance to speak one-on-one with him


several things John said that was at once funny and very telling...we were discussing Art and his "love" of participation sports and he said the following things that had me laughing and thinking...


"Art Always batted 1000 when we played softball."

"I got yelled at by Art for hitting Home runs behind sr 84."

in Addition, he acknowledged that people would be come down on if they thru art out at base or struck him out.


I just find this so fucking funny.....Don't ask me why...Im laughing as I type it.

 :grin:  :grin:  :grin:  :grin:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline cleveland

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 410
  • Karma: +0/-1
    • View Profile
Some insight(s)
« Reply #42 on: August 10, 2005, 09:21:00 AM »
I think, like a lot of 'great men,' Art had a bit of a Napoleon complex. He always had to win, even if the victory was fake. That robbed me of a lot of respect for him.

Perhaps 'falsity' was the first and most important rule!

(...is that a word?)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
ally Gator

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Some insight(s)
« Reply #43 on: August 10, 2005, 07:30:00 PM »
http://www.who.int/mental_health/preven ... erates/en/
..."Assuming we know about all of them and are estimating the total # of seedlings somewhere in the right ballpark, that's roughly 20 times the averate for the area. Here's one source..."

Ginger-
I agree that there is huge variation in what data is used, just a quick google of the world health organization, Suicide Rates (per 100,000), by country, year, and gender. Now granted the data is 6 years old (1999) but extrapolating from reported rates based on 100,000 down to a population of 5,000 the rate for suicide (I would not even know where to look for "overdose" data) the figures should be 44 males & 10 females. I still think the rate among us "seedling" seems low, even given the fact that some may have been suicidal before they came into the program (physical / chemical causes) and may have had this pre-disposition even after...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline GregFL

  • Posts: 2841
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Some insight(s)
« Reply #44 on: August 10, 2005, 07:33:00 PM »
we have no rate. There are no figures to crunch. All we have is anecedotal information.


But believing the hype thrown at us in the seed, all of us graduates should be running the country right now and we should be millions strong.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »