Carlbrook

[Charly]

Of all the kids my son was running around with before he went to wilderness, he is the ONLY one who is doing well now.

I guess time will tell whether he was harmed by these programs.  It certainly does not appear that way now.

What part of "you can't kick a 16 year old out" don't you understand?

What part of  "a parent who loves her/his child does everything to help them.  Kicking them out and not 'mommying" is not the answer".  

I have two kids.  They both appear to be doing really well with their lives.  Do they have some issues to work on?  Sure.  Who doesn't?
We are connected as a family, they are independent and appreciate the educations we have provided.  I'm just not sure how you expect me to believe I have caused all this harm.  I just don't see it.  I'll let you know when I do.

[Anonymous]

It never ceases to amaze me how parents when pushed to the point where they've run out of excuses-for-abuse reach for the ace up their sleeve and demand to know what they should have done in the absence of any other options or "resources".

For pete's sake, how about looking in the mirror and realizing YOU are not perfect.  Let's start there before picking up the phone to call in the goons to come haul your "imperfect" son or daughter away to some corporate gulag in the woods --  preferably while the neighbors are sleeping and can't witness this act of utter and complete lunacy.

 :roll:

[Nihilanthic]

@Charly:
I didn't say you 'caused all this harm'! I said you were conned!

Any damage that would have happened would have been being sent away to boarding schools or programs instead being connected with his family. Children need their parents, programs act like a family is a priviladge to be taken away and earned back, and that support and love can be doled out. Obviously, that is baloney

The cutoff of communication and the isolation alone from a program can be extremely damaging, same for creating a rift, same for making a child think their parents put them there.

What Psy is trying to say is part of a reaction to trauma is thinking you deserve it. Rape victims think they earned it... doesn't mean rape made them fix themselves, now did it? No...

A coping mechanism is just learning to accept what has been done to you, but that does not excuse or condone it or make it work or make it effective.

But yanno what? Sometimes for some people the best thing to do is to just let them go learn things the hard way, and grow up naturally with natural consequences like humanity has for eons and eons, before these jackasses sprung up in the 80s convincing us otherwise.

@Oz Girl:

I will be blunt. Physical conditioning is not abuse, and is not linked in any way. OVER TRAINING is abusive, and FORCED EXERCISE is abuse, but comparing physical conditioning to abuse is like comparing a kiss to a kick in the face.

[Nihilanthic]

It never ceases to amaze me how parents when pushed to the point where they've run out of excuses-for-abuse reach for the ace up their sleeve and demand to know what they should have done in the absence of any other options or "resources".

For pete's sake, how about looking in the mirror and realizing YOU are not perfect.  Let's start there before picking up the phone to call in the goons to come haul your "imperfect" son or daughter away to some corporate gulag in the woods --  preferably while the neighbors are sleeping and can't witness this act of utter and complete lunacy.

 :roll:

I appreciate the support but you're not helping. Making Karen feel defensive for whatever reason and clam up is not going to help her or anyone else in the long run.

But yeah, it does seem communication ends when someone thinks we're saying "YOURE WRONG" and then go "NO IM NOT" and then run off and never examine how they were conned or what happened to THEIR OWN CHILDREN AND THOUSANDS OF OTHER CHILDREN.

Need I remind EVERYONE here, what is this about?

Thousands of children and teeangers in hell, RIGHT NOW, while we speak, THAT is what this is about, not you, not me, not Karen!

[Nihilanthic]

Niles- you are a completely different type of person than my son is.
He subjects himself to abuse all the time and would consider it "good". This is a young man who runs 9 miles up a mountain for fun. If you have ever been on an athletic team, you get the opportunity to do things you don't want to do and push yourself very hard. This is what he meant by "good abuse". I know you can't relate to this, but I can because I am the same way.

I almost missed this...

Karen, do you have any fucking idea of what I do for a hobby?

Muay Thai Kickboxing and Brazilian Jiujitsu aka "MMA". Their conditioning is a little bit more hardcore... but I will admit I hate running because its so damned boring!

At any rate, don't pull that crap, especially if you don't know what I do! I mean unless youd like to have a #200 lb mans forearm in your neck for a few minutes trying to sweep him in your guard or stand up and trade blows and dodge the shins flying into your thigh...

[Anonymous]

I appreciate the support but you're not helping. Making Karen feel defensive for whatever reason and clam up is not going to help her or anyone else in the long run.

But yeah, it does seem communication ends when someone thinks we're saying "YOURE WRONG" and then go "NO IM NOT" and then run off and never examine how they were conned or what happened to THEIR OWN CHILDREN AND THOUSANDS OF OTHER CHILDREN.

Need I remind EVERYONE here, what is this about?

Thousands of children and teeangers in hell, RIGHT NOW, while we speak, THAT is what this is about, not you, not me, not Karen!

 :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:

[Nihilanthic]

::boohoo::

[Anonymous]

Hey you know what, if censoring my opinion was all it took to end the suffering of children in these hellholes, I'd be the first to kiss some deadbeat parent's ass.  But that's not realistic.  Parents who come here and can't tolerate criticism unless it's sugar coated and handed to them on a silver platter don't impress me much.  Hell, that's what ST is for.  But since I'm not here to win any posting points, I'll be glad to call it a day on this thread.

[Anonymous]

Calling the cops is not a good option to do to your kid. It's ironic to rail against abuse and call in the cops. The juvenile justice system can be just as abusive as private programs. So can the psychiatric adolescent system. So unless you know or experienced these things, don't be reccomneding them so freely. It's like parents who reccomend programs off the cuff.

[Deborah]

Jeez.  It's the same crap from all these schools.  Again, verbatim Benchmark(and practically every other program i have heard of).  The pattern really really fits.

Same MO with all programs. HLA went so far as to initiate a Incentive Plan to improve retention. PG counselors could earn up to $20K if they retained 93% of their PG until graduation. Can we say unethical? Conflict of interest? What if a kid really isn't a 'good fit' or commits an act of violence that should get them kicked out?
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=18202

[Nihilanthic]

People who have been in Jails and programs preferred Jail over programs.

At any rate, natural consequences for actually doing something with representation, instead of an open-ended sentance for emotional growth without any rights at all.

[Anonymous]

People who have been in Jails and programs preferred Jail over programs.

At any rate, natural consequences for actually doing something with representation, instead of an open-ended sentance for emotional growth without any rights at all.

I've had the cops called on my by my parents and taken from my house in cuffs to jail. I've also been in a few different programs. To say one is better than the other is stupid. To actually recommend a parent call the cops on their kid? I would never do that! Cops have guns, and they use them. There is nothing 'natural' about dealing with cops, detectives, courts, jails, probation officers, drug tests, curfews, and other beauracratic bullshit. The real answer is people prefer neither, they are both horrible in their own distinct way. ::noway::

[psy]

Niles- Whatdo you suggest parents in our situation do?  It is illegal to kick out a 16 year old.  Besides that, we would not do it.  We would take every step to try to help our son, which is what we did.  I doubt he would be doing as well as he is today if we had kicked him out.

My son agrees that he was out of control and could not remain in the household.  This is 3 1'/2 years later.  He agrees that we had no other options.  My husband and I are intelligent, resourceful people.  We did our research, we tried everything, and there wasn't one medical or mental health professional that thought for a moment that our son could or should remain at home.  I don't know why you think you know so much better about what was the right decision at the time.  EVEN IF WILDERNESS DIDN'T HELP HIM, which he believes it did, he was safe, my daughter was safe, our cars and neighbors were safe.  

When you can provide me and other parents with an alternative choice, then I might find you credible.  All I'm hearing from you, in a million different ways is, "You are a horrible parent because you sent your son to an abusive program and it didn' t help anyway and then you sent him to another abusive program and even though he says he is fine, he really isn't because he was abused."

Well you might be hearing that but I don't think many people here believe that.  However, from what you told me, i believe he was abused.  It doesn't mean he was harmed (at least not apparantly).

Different people go through the same thing and only some suffer problems.

Nobody is trying to say your kid was necessarily harmed permanantly.  Some kids just survive it... it doesn't faze them.

In any case, you thought you were doing the right thing, so it's not really your fault regardless.

[Deborah]

I think one component not touched on here is how many teens are court ordered to programs.   Often, juvenile judges will tell parents "either send them to this program or your child will face the juvenile court system IE: incarceration".   I know of parents who pondered these two choices and chose a placement believing that it was a far superior choice on several levels.

This is a real problem and one of the many complaints in the HLA lawsuit. Parents who were sending their kid there for minor issues were told they didn't accept court-ordered/adjudicated kids, and didn't expect their kid to be housed with seriously distressed kids, some criminal (one left to serve time and returned), some violent. And like any for profit business, the bottom line is always going to take precedent over ethics and integrity.
Many considered HLA to be a primo program, just like Carlbrook. It would be interesting to see how they would stand up to the same scrutiny HLA has been subjected to.

[Nihilanthic]

People who have been in Jails and programs preferred Jail over programs.

At any rate, natural consequences for actually doing something with representation, instead of an open-ended sentance for emotional growth without any rights at all.

I've had the cops called on my by my parents and taken from my house in cuffs to jail. I've also been in a few different programs. To say one is better than the other is stupid. To actually recommend a parent call the cops on their kid? I would never do that! Cops have guns, and they use them. There is nothing 'natural' about dealing with cops, detectives, courts, jails, probation officers, drug tests, curfews, and other beauracratic bullshit. The real answer is people prefer neither, they are both horrible in their own distinct way. ::noway::

Thrown in a program for a year plus, or booked for some nonsense charge?

Between those two choices, I would pick the latter. Obviously I'd say neither, but some people want to have some laid out by-the-numbers "choice" for them to take instead of "be a parent".