Author Topic: Carlbrook  (Read 735787 times)

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Offline psy

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Carlbrook
« Reply #1710 on: December 28, 2006, 04:57:36 PM »
Quote from: ""Nihilanthic""
Hey, why do that? Sure sure thinks its okay to force this on her own fucking son, in person, with all the other conditions I laid out pretty clearly.

Why on earth can't she take a watered down, internet, face-to-monitor, you can take a break if you gotta go cry version of her own son's medicine.
becuase she doesn't deserve it.  Nobody deserves it. I didn't.. nobody did.  no matter what they did.  This ain't program and this most certainly ain't a rap.  I wouldn't put anybody through that shit (though it did cross my mind a few times with my parents)
Monitor or not, words can hurt.
Quote
I mean it worked for HIM... and it's KARENS responsibility what she gets out of this!

And it's not your responsibility to try and force her to understand something that is probably going to take her a long time to "get".  People don't just change their opinions overnight and attacking them only works in a situation where you can't leave.
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Offline Nihilanthic

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Carlbrook
« Reply #1711 on: December 28, 2006, 04:58:46 PM »
Nope. I'm quite focused and I have a REASON I'm doing this and I think it is pretty apparent. I'm quite sober, actually.

If she can't take this utterly pussied out version of what a child is forced to go through by her own penstroke then maybe she should reconsider how nonabusive it all is, because I'm not being nearly as bad as I could be, and this is the fucking internet on a forum, she can take a break, she can go cry, she can just walk away and go get flustered.

If she can't take this, god, imagine how shed wilt under this shit in person! But oh well I guess its only good for someone else right?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Nihilanthic

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Carlbrook
« Reply #1712 on: December 28, 2006, 05:00:05 PM »
Quote from: ""psy""
Quote from: ""Nihilanthic""
Hey, why do that? Sure sure thinks its okay to force this on her own fucking son, in person, with all the other conditions I laid out pretty clearly.

Why on earth can't she take a watered down, internet, face-to-monitor, you can take a break if you gotta go cry version of her own son's medicine.
becuase she doesn't deserve it.  Nobody deserves it. I didn't.. nobody did.  no matter what they did.  This ain't program and this most certainly ain't a rap.
Monitor or not, words can hurt.
Quote
I mean it worked for HIM... and it's KARENS responsibility what she gets out of this!
And it's not your responsibility to try and force her to understand something that is probably going to take her a long time to "get".  People don't just change their opinions overnight and attacking them only works in a situation where you can't leave.


Kinda mean's we're right, doesn't it, Psy?

I dunno, if she gets her karmic smack in the ass that she'd had coming for years I won't feel too bad about it. Afterall, if she learns some EMPATHY, the ends justify the means!  :rofl:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Anonymous

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Carlbrook
« Reply #1713 on: December 28, 2006, 05:00:10 PM »
Oh, man.  :P  :rofl:
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Offline psy

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Carlbrook
« Reply #1714 on: December 28, 2006, 05:01:35 PM »
Quote from: ""Nihilanthic""
Afterall, if she learns some EMPATHY, the ends justify the means!  :rofl:


Is that not the same exact rhetoric many program people use?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)

Offline Anonymous

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Carlbrook
« Reply #1715 on: December 28, 2006, 05:03:36 PM »
Quote from: ""psy""
Quote from: ""Nihilanthic""
Afterall, if she learns some EMPATHY, the ends justify the means!  :rofl:

Is that not the same exact rhetoric many program people use?


As well as commies. The ends will always justify the means my good boy.
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Offline Nihilanthic

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Carlbrook
« Reply #1716 on: December 28, 2006, 05:03:43 PM »
That's the point. That's the point exactly.

Maybe setting a fucking example and making someone go cry becuase of letters on the internet might, just might, make that little grinch's heart start beating again and grow bigger and realize what a fucking IMPACT LETTER can do to someone.

She read my IMPACT POSTS to HERSELF and she had to sit out. I rest my fucking case.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline psy

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Carlbrook
« Reply #1717 on: December 28, 2006, 05:06:59 PM »
Quote from: ""Nihilanthic""
That's the point. That's the point exactly.

Maybe setting a fucking example and making someone go cry becuase of letters on the internet might, just might, make that little grinch's heart start beating again and grow bigger and realize what a fucking IMPACT LETTER can do to someone.
NO.  you are missing my point entirely.  Those impact letters make people shut off.  Confrontation only "works" in a situation where you can't leave.
Quote
She read my IMPACT POSTS to HERSELF and she had to sit out. I rest my fucking case.


SUMMARY: Confrontation does not work.  Here, or ANYWHERE!!

Hurting somebody is not going to jumpstart their heart.  It will make them shut off.

Here you shut off your computer, in program, you shut off your heart.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)

Offline Nihilanthic

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Carlbrook
« Reply #1718 on: December 28, 2006, 05:11:17 PM »
Yanno what, I think I should stop. I guess more than one person is working through some issues today.

Sorry Karen, but hopefully in time you'll realize why sometimes we blow up like this. You don't deserve it anymore than anyone else, but I'm only human, I only have so much tolerance, so much restraint, and doing worse than this to children is not something that I can just stand forever.

Psy's the bigger person here. I really don't know how you do it. Maybe I just burned out, I dunno. But maybe you'll have better luck getting through to her.

I guess it takes the right person to say the same thing to get an answer.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Karass

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Carlbrook
« Reply #1719 on: December 28, 2006, 05:14:08 PM »
Curious that everyone talks about studies and evidence-based therapeutic methods, and yet I could never find a single study of TBS youth outcomes. There was that NATSAP-sponsored b.s. a couple months ago, but that was too obvious and too easy to shred.

What about wilderness? There are lots of studies. Sure you can debate and shred the peer reviewers, bias or lack thereof, but still there is some evidence, and not all of it smells like b.s. and not all of it is rosy pro-program results.

The Wilderness Research Center at the University of Idaho has published several studies, as has the Wilderness Research Center at the University of Minnesota. Some but not all of these are sponsored by the Outdoor Behavioral Healthcare Research Cooperative, which I am well aware is something of a trade group like NATSAP.

The most interesting finding I recall was a study that showed treatment outcomes after 2 years were about the same for the group that did community-based therapy after wilderness as for the group that did TBS after wilderness. Not much of an argument for sending your child away and spending 10s of thousands of dollars, yet this is the most common scenario for most kids who attend wilderness -- anywhere from 75-90% go on to residential "aftercare."

I can't find the study right now, but I'm sure my son can. He referenced it in a paper he wrote for school on the subject of wilderness therapy. I find that pretty ironic, since the assignment was to write a term paper on a controversial topic of current interest. Well, it sure as hell was of current interest to him at the time, being only a few months away from the Utah dirt! And no doubt it is a controversial subject, whether you believe it has any "therapeutic" value or not. He felt that it did, at least for him.
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Like its politicians and its wars, society has the teenagers it deserves. -- J.B. Priestley

Offline Nihilanthic

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Carlbrook
« Reply #1720 on: December 28, 2006, 05:16:55 PM »
Nice little verbal outburst there..

Too bad all you've done is reinforce what our said, that wilderness is just the first stage in the TBS cash-cow-pipeline, and not show that they do anything but... get kids to go to programs.  :rofl:

I also find it funny you need 'aftercare' after 'therapy'. The only time I hear of 'aftercare' is after major surgery or a intense BDSM scene.

Funny how much BDSM is like what you do to kids without thier consent, huh?

OBFUSCATION! WHEEEEEEEEEE!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline psy

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Carlbrook
« Reply #1721 on: December 28, 2006, 05:17:28 PM »
Quote from: ""Nihilanthic""
Yanno what, I think I should stop. I guess more than one person is working through some issues today.

Sorry Karen, but hopefully in time you'll realize why sometimes we blow up like this. You don't deserve it anymore than anyone else, but I'm only human, I only have so much tolerance, so much restraint, and doing worse than this to children is not something that I can just stand forever.

Psy's the bigger person here. I really don't know how you do it.

When getting attacked in a rap at Benchmark, you couldn't defend yourself.  You weren't allowed to.

Did benchmark teach me self control?  No.  It taught me to take a beating and ignore it like nothing happened.  Stronger now?  Perhaps from a certain perspective... More frigid now?  Most definitely.

I still get angry occassionally but usually only at programs.  Programs brainwash both parents and kids and you can't just yell them out of it (at least not without duct-tape)

Quote
Maybe I just burned out, I dunno. But maybe you'll have better luck getting through to her.

I guess it takes the right person to say the same thing to get an answer.


I aggree with that.  I hope she comes back because i'd like to ask her a few more questions about Carlbrook here...
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Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)

Offline Deborah

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Carlbrook
« Reply #1722 on: December 28, 2006, 05:17:35 PM »
Quote from: ""Charly""
Deb--  I have openly shared my failings as a parent and as an adult with groups at both my son's programs, as well as a treatment group I was in in my town.  My son has talked about his family issues with us present at group sessions.  Of course it is tough to hear, but it's part of therapy.  
I actually shared some of my family issues with The Wall Street Journal, and was quoted.  I received several calls from social and business associates thanking me for my honesty.  (this was way before my son was in a program)
So-you are heading the wrong way with that one, Deborah.


Huge difference between YOU sharing your failings and having your child IMPACT you in front of your friends and peers. Not nearly as humiliating when you pick and choose what you divulge. It's unethical.

These places "work" for some for the same reason jail works for some.

Huffines says it best:
Some of my patients are referred to me with a history of having been in a therapeutic boarding school. Once they have come to trust me they will share with me the kind of tales we find on this web site; horrific details of abusive and grossly inappropriate treatment. I have heard these stories too many times. The stories vary however. Occasionally I have heard some positive stories where a youth has been treated with respect and caring in an appropriately run facility, but even then it is against their will. I see very little evidence that even these kids have been helped. The bad stories prevail. I care deeply for youth I work with. I have a strong bias of positive regard for all youth I meet because I genuinely like adolescents. When I hear of mistreatment in facilities that are supposed to care for youth I feel the betrayal and see the harm it has done to my patient. My reaction has been one of extreme anger. This has mobilized me to be an activist in trying to address the system failings that allow these travesties to continue. How could any adult do differently if they are a decent human being and have normal instincts of care and concern for kids? It horrifies me that in our society we can enter into a mass denial that lets these facilities exist.....

Involuntary residential care outside of such a legal process cannot be therapeutic, no mater how humane and well intended the staff, as it undercuts and essential aspect of adolescent development, the achievement of autonomy. It is NOT therapeutic because the loss of rights does damage to a sense of self. It undercuts the formation of a personal identity. As with restraint and seclusion, it may be necessary to save a life, but it has a very large cost. It represents a failure, or an absence, of community-based treatment. In such circumstances, such active coercion needs to be ended in the shortest possible time, preferably only a few days. Individuals detained, even in a state of psychotic thinking, should be offered trauma support and counseling, similar to what is commonly recommended after an episode of restraint, to undo the damage caused by such coercion.

I personally believe that if our laws that protect youth rights in mental health and substance abuse treatment were changed from 13 to 16 or 18, the State of Washington would have a flood of locked residential programs emerge around Seattle just as in Idaho, Utah and Montana. I strongly believe that we will not solve the problem of unsafe, non-therapeutic, inappropriate residential treatment until youth are given rights to consent to care in all 50 states. If Idaho, Montana and Utah and all other states had such laws, and had strong Protection and Advocacy agencies in their states to assure adherence to such laws, we would not have the problems we do today and youth such as most of you would no longer endure the abuse and humiliation you have suffered....
http://cafety.org/index.php?option=com_ ... &Itemid=35
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Offline Karass

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Carlbrook
« Reply #1723 on: December 28, 2006, 05:40:31 PM »
Quote from: ""Nihilanthic""
Nice little verbal outburst there..

Too bad all you've done is reinforce what our said, that wilderness is just the first stage in the TBS cash-cow-pipeline, and not show that they do anything but... get kids to go to programs.  :rofl:

I also find it funny you need 'aftercare' after 'therapy'. The only time I hear of 'aftercare' is after major surgery or a intense BDSM scene.


You exactly nailed the thing that first raised red flags for me, when I first heard phrases like "therapeutic boarding school" and "aftercare" coming from the therapists at wilderness. WTF? I thought. Only then did I discover the linkage between wilderness and TBS, the cash-cow-pipeline and some of the other nonsense that goes with this industry.

I also found it funny that you would need 'aftercare' after 'therapy.' But to my way of thinking at the time, wilderness was a desperate last resort to get him to take a good look around -- within and without -- and get himself some real therapy. Wilderness was an intervention, a wake-up call. It had some therapeutic elements to it, and some elements of boosting self-esteem, but it wasn't intended to be "the main course," so to speak. And like I said, TBS or RTC wasn't even something that was on the radar screen for us. Even if the cost were zero, that was simply not going to happen.
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Like its politicians and its wars, society has the teenagers it deserves. -- J.B. Priestley

Offline Nihilanthic

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Carlbrook
« Reply #1724 on: December 28, 2006, 05:43:42 PM »
Its about as useful as a wake up call as me beating Karen with her own medicine was.

TBS is not real therapy, and you dont make people get therapy by abusing them first. Thats unethical, unnecessary, and pretty ineffective. Do you think Karen wants to talk right now? Think she's open right now? Oh, maybe a few weeks of this in my backyard without showers eating MREs and oatmeal might make her more 'open' :rofl:

Hey, is her self esteem high right now? No... i'd imagine its pretty crushed right now!!! How the hell does 'wilderness' or ANYTHING a program, camp, or what I just did help self esteem?

They SAY they do it, but when you get specifics, it sure tells another story, don't you agree?

Scared straight bullshit doesn't work, the APA has already demonstrated that, and just common sense does too. You were a kid, don't you remember being one?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."