Carlbrook

[psy]

My sister has been at Carlbrook since this September. She turned 18 yesterday and was ready to sign her self out, but my parents told her they wouldn't support her financially  if she chose to leave. So she chose to stay. I think this school is what she needs to turn her life back around. Ive come to realize that this whole process wont be easy, but I know it will all be worth it in the end!

[troll5]

Although the above does happen.  a lot.  My guess is Carlbrook convinced the parents not to take the kid back.  This was standard fare at Benchmark.  If you're real. My advice is this:  Your sister is going to "need" program until your parents run out of money.  If you want to go to college eventually, my advice is to convince your parents to stop wasting their money and give her a second chance at home.

Yes, hard because it IS necessary. Because I was once ignorant as well and had no trust in the program until I actually  took the time to visit the school and find out more about it. I had a wonderful lunch with 5 current students randomly selected and they  told me everything I needed to know, the truth. They all made some very poor choices, that could have cost them their life. And their parents who love and care for them, saw this distructive behavior and knew that something must be done, for the good of their child, to help them for the rest of their life. Sure, you can go and believe all the rumors you want, but until you've looked in to it a little bit more and honestly know what you're talking about, you might want to keep from letting your suppressed anger out on this forum.

[troll1]
Ok.  Now i'm pretty sure you're full of it.

But even if you're not, you were almost guaranteed a positive response.  If you interview 5 randomly selected students together, they are all going to keep silent.  What if one is a snitch (very likely).  Now if you had interviewed five randomly selected students individually, privately, I can almost guarantee you would have gotten a different response.  You would also have been able to compare their allegations for similarities.

Here's why students can't be trusted to give honest assessments if they are not alone.

I wouldn't be surprised if Carlbrook used a similar method to keep their students in line.  It's similar to the soviet "secret police" system (where everybody is a potential snitch, and snitches are rewarded hansomly).

[Charly]

Carlbrook was pretty consistent in getting kids out after the 14 or 15 months of the "program".  They liked to graduate the peer groups together.  Of course, if a kid "messed up" (in their eyes) the kid would drop back a peer group or be delayed for other reasons.  Generally, they did get the kids out in 14-15 months.  There was no pre-payment.  It was monthly.
When we visited we got to talk to kids individually.  However, no kids got to talk to parents who weren't "with the program".  My son was forbidden to talk to touring parents AND new students and ALL females.
If a kid really didn't want to be there and the normal efforts to get them back in line failed, they had to go back to wilderness until they decided Carlbrook wasn't so bad after all.

[Anonymous]

they had to go back to wilderness until they decided Carlbrook wasn't so bad after all.

That's blackmail not a decision.

[Anonymous]

Notice all the program language in Liney and Charlys posts. Everything the kids do is a "choice". The girl who wants to leave but can't becuase she's thousands of miles away from her social network with no money, it's a choice. The kids who get stuck in month long death marches with counselors four years their elder named "soaring eagle", well it's their choice to be there, since the one and only alternative is presented. This is program speak. These are not choices. Not even close. This kind of language stands out around here like a sore thumb. This ain't struggling teens.

[Charly]

Hey.  This isn't me defending the program.  This is me stating what was going on.  Just facts.  I realize it is couched in "program speak" but that's the way it was presented.  Not my endorsement.

[Anonymous]

Notice all the program language in Liney and Charlys posts. Everything the kids do is a "choice". The girl who wants to leave but can't becuase she's thousands of miles away from her social network with no money, it's a choice. The kids who get stuck in month long death marches with counselors four years their elder named "soaring eagle", well it's their choice to be there, since the one and only alternative is presented. This is program speak. These are not choices. Not even close. This kind of language stands out around here like a sore thumb. This ain't struggling teens.

Well said, my friend.

The only choice a program kid gets to make is whether to pretend to work the program or actually do it and pretend it's working.

[Nihilanthic]

Its hard because its necessary and its necessary because its hard!

The more you suffer, the more chances you have to win!  :rofl:

[psy]

However, no kids got to talk to parents who weren't "with the program".

There you have it folks.  They let the parents randomly select from a population of brainwashed/scared-shitless teens.  They keep the rest locked up in the back.

Typical Terezin bullshit.

Charley.  Do you think your opinion of Carlbrook might have been different if the tour had been uncensored?  If your son wasn't "with the program" how many others do you think there were?  Where I was, it was the majority.

[Charly]

I talked to my son about the program tonight and asked him about some of the things psy raised.  First of all, my son is very objective. He is not a program kid and had little good to say about Carlbrook when he came out- after 9 months(7 weeks of which was spent back in wilderness).  He said that kids were encouraged to snitch- in some cases kids felt empowered by the ability to rat out others and advance themselves in the program.  He, personally, refused to do this and suffered consequences as a result.  He said the kids who are successful post-program did NOT have substance abuse problems.  They had issues such as anger, serious conflict with parents and other adults, video game addiction/no friends issues or depression due to family or other emotional issues.  He said he can't even count the number of kids who have bombed out of college or returned to serious substance abuse.  However, a number of kids, including himself, are doing really well at top colleges.  NONE of these kids had substance issues of any significance.
He said Tim Brace was absolutely not abusive in any manner and was one of the most tame members of the entire staff.  He has a lot of respect for Grant Price, even though he was an ass much of the time.  He thinks Grant has an accurate view of what the program is really all about, but he (Grant) thinks it is the best alternative for the kids in it.  Glenn Bender is psycho and worthless.  I won't comment on others here.  
He does not think kids were forced to make up abuse or trauma just to get through the workshops and group sessions.  He said there was an instance of someone unilaterally making up something about his/her family from the beginning in order to get attention.  It created a serious mess and he/she finally admitted it wasn't true.
He said most kids didn't buy into any of the therapeutic work.  Some faked it and then started to buy into it (sort of a "fake it till you make it" thing like AA).  Some really did buy into it.  Some, like my son, resisted it and took what they needed and left the rest.
My son said the benefit for him was getting a chance to just have time out, get to read a lot and think about his future.  He said he would have been fine coming home after wilderness if he had educational options.  He says sending him to wilderness was absolutely the right thing and that the therapy in wilderness was much more effective than the therapy at Carlbrook.  He said wilderness was our only choice with him at the time.  He said after wilderness we should have found a program where he lived in a small group and attended a local school (I think they have some of these situations in Utah, etc.).  
Psy- I don't think it would have changed our mind even if we had been able to talk to other disgruntled kids.  The school and staff make a tremendous impression and it truly seemed like the best choice for our son.  He doesn't think Oakley would have been any different.
So-I have this kid with me for another couple of days if you have any questions.  He has been out 2 1/2 years now and is in touch with a lot of other post-program kids.

[psy]

I talked to my son about the program tonight and asked him about some of the things psy raised.  First of all, my son is very objective. He is not a program kid and had little good to say about Carlbrook when he came out- after 9 months(7 weeks of which was spent back in wilderness).  He said that kids were encouraged to snitch- in some cases kids felt empowered by the ability to rat out others and advance themselves in the program.

Yup.  That's the system allright.  Now kids.  Does that teach ethical behavior?

He, personally, refused to do this and suffered consequences as a result.  He said the kids who are successful post-program did NOT have substance abuse problems.  They had issues such as anger, serious conflict with parents and other adults, video game addiction

PFFT.. video game addiction... :rofl:  

I can see it now:

Kid A: so what were are you here for
Kid B: shootin heroin
Kid C: video games.  they're almost as bad.

/no friends issues or depression due to family or other emotional issues.  He said he can't even count the number of kids who have bombed out of college or returned to serious substance abuse.  However, a number of kids, including himself, are doing really well at top colleges.  NONE of these kids had substance issues of any significance.
He said Tim Brace was absolutely not abusive in any manner and was one of the most tame members of the entire staff.  He has a lot of respect for Grant Price, even though he was an ass much of the time.  He thinks Grant has an accurate view of what the program is really all about, but he (Grant) thinks it is the best alternative for the kids in it.  Glenn Bender is psycho and worthless.  I won't comment on others here.  
He does not think kids were forced to make up abuse or trauma just to get through the workshops and group sessions.

Now you're gettin to the "neety greety".

He said there was an instance of someone unilaterally making up something about his/her family from the beginning in order to get attention.  It created a serious mess and he/she finally admitted it wasn't true.
He said most kids didn't buy into any of the therapeutic work.  Some faked it and then started to buy into it (sort of a "fake it till you make it" thing like AA).

And what if you didn't have a substance problem?  What if you didn't need fixing.  Does Carlbrook every deny kids admission?  There are "no reason"ers in programs.

Some really did buy into it.  Some, like my son, resisted it and took what they needed and left the rest.
My son said the benefit for him was getting a chance to just have time out, get to read a lot and think about his future.  He said he would have been fine coming home after wilderness if he had educational options.  He says sending him to wilderness was absolutely the right thing and that the therapy in wilderness was much more effective than the therapy at Carlbrook.

It depends on the program.  There might be a few "ok" programs out there, but it's usually not worth the risk.  Where did he go to wilderness?

He said wilderness was our only choice with him at the time.  He said after wilderness we should have found a program where he lived in a small group and attended a local school (I think they have some of these situations in Utah, etc.).

avoid Utah like the plague.  Oh don't tell me the wilderness program was in Utah... :roll:  Ok people... let's keep calm here.

Psy- I don't think it would have changed our mind even if we had been able to talk to other disgruntled kids.  The school and staff make a tremendous impression and it truly seemed like the best choice for our son.  He doesn't think Oakley would have been any different.
So-I have this kid with me for another couple of days if you have any questions.  He has been out 2 1/2 years now and is in touch with a lot of other post-program kids.

Sure.

Ask him if he was ever told to remember something traumatic in a strange closed-eye exercise (or imagine he was in the situation).

If yes to the above, Ask him what happened after that (directly)

Ask him if he liked the workshops / propheets. (probably yes.. for now)

Ask him if Tim Brace was the facilitator in the workshops / propheets.

Ask him if he ever felt pressured to disclose something he wasn't comfortable with.

Ask him what would happened if kids complained to parents.

Ask him if he felt parents were kept in the dark.

If so, how?

Ask him if he ever lost hope.

Ask him if others did.

Ask him if he feels like he was changed into a "new person" or discovered his "real self". (or if this happened in wilderness).

Ask him if he felt like he was being toyed with.

Ask him if he feels the program was there to make money, or to help kids.

Ask him if he feels those "video game addict" kids truly needed to be there.

Ask him if he feels like program would never have let him graduate, even if he had followed all the rules.

Ask him how many graduations he saw.

Ask him if there were any runaways.

..

Thanks.  If i think of any more i'll pm/email you.
Merry Christmas.

[Charly]

He fell asleep- we'll answer those tomorrow.

[Nihilanthic]

It's still quackery that treats 'video game addiction'... :roll:

That really looks to me like they just want to suck anyone in they can, to their little one size fits all hunk of debunked potentially abusive nonsense called 'emotional growth' and make money off of them!

I'm glad your son is ok and able to remain objective, and... I guess it figures that kids with nothing wrong to begin with did fine afterwads :wink: but I think we all know why they're suceeding right now...

At any rate, Merry Christmas.

[hanzomon4]

Happy xmas folks........

I just found this thread and have not read through everything, so here goes.... I'm really not surprized too hear about kids who:

• Are doing well
• Feel that, despite any ill treatment, it was for the best

Here's my reasoning, If a kid is not "with" the program they suffer a consequence(real bad shit). When a kid "is with" the program they gain something(level, privilege)... Basic BM.
Now considering the fact that what happens in most bootcamps(stress positions, pain compliance, etc) and wilderness camps(forced marches and such) would be illegal if done by the State to say prisoners, I would think that it's fair to say that what these kids go through must be pretty traumatic.

I'm going somewhere with this so keep reading please... What does the program demand of the student for that student to avoid the bad stuff and get the good stuff?........
In most of the programs I know about it's usually something like this:
   

• I've made bad choices
• I've hurt my family
• I've hurt my self
• All of my problems(at home, at school, in the program, etc) are because of my bad choices
• The program is my only hope
• and it's saving me

Ok that's^^^ not therapy.... When you go to therapy you(and your licensed therapist) try to find out what is causing your behavior..... More on this later

The question from the convinced parent maybe "how could my son feel that this was all for the best, and hold some of his handle... counselors in such high esteem if he was abused?!?!
Easy, look at the battered woman syndrome... BWS happens in 3 stages:

• Tension - "woman you're doing that thing that pisses me off"
• Eruption -
  [li] The Honeymoon - "You know, I only do this because I love you so much"

The following is the characteristics of a battered woman:

1. The woman believes that the violence was her fault.
2. The woman has an inability to place the responsibility for the violence elsewhere.
3. The woman fears for her life and/or her children's lives.
4. The woman has an irrational belief that the abuser is omnipresent and omniscient.

Sorry for the BWS 101..... This model relates to the "teen-help" business in a very disturbing way.

• Number 1 on the BWS quote correlates to the therapeutic approach in most facilities:
  • It's your fault by default The goal in most facilites is to teach that your pAiN is because of your bAd choices. This is not working on your kids problems because the question "why do you behave this way" is never asked or only asked after they have instilled self blame[/u], not to be confused with self responsibility  

• Number 2 on the BWS correlates, again, to the non-therapeutic approach of most facilities:
  • Say thats it's all your fault or face the consequences This is the Bat Signal of untrained and unqualified to treat your child. This is bully therapy that insures that, by the end of "treatment", the student will see it the way the "therapist"  does, or "we'll need to keep him longer due to lack of progress"

• Number 3 & 4 is what you ultimately get when you give strangers total control over your children
  • We will use any means to break you and the eyes of your peers belong to us Forced marches, Stress positions, Forced  Labor, Forced Exercise to the point of misery.. The Program controls when you eat, sleep, and shit.. Do anything to be considered not being with the program and you'd have ten kids trying to capitalize on your transgression just to gain the program's favor, and hopefully their freedom.

    He said that kids were encouraged to snitch- in some cases kids felt empowered by the ability to rat out others and advance themselves in the program

    He, personally, refused to do this and suffered consequences as a result

    They may not fear death, but their life is controlled by strangers, untrained one's who are trying to break them....  omnipresent and omniscient? Yes..

[/li][/li][/list][/list]

Where there's a stick you will find a carrot, "the levels"... The Honeymoon phase I referred to earlier.. This is necessary because it means that the program gave them something. So it goes from you choices BaD! Make world angry :flame: to Program choices GoOd  ::bigsmilebounce::
Levels=Positive reinforcement for taking the abuse, "Beat up wife... I love you"

I have to go but I will address why Programs use this model and why they will take in kids with.....
Drug habits-Game habits-Tourette Syndrome-Depression(can you spell suicide.... WWASPS, we cure depression  ::bangin::    :cry: )-Not fucked up?!? We'll correct that habits-And STDs  ::puke::
See ya in a few....


Forgot to add Why I'm not surprised to hear that some kids are doing great after being in abusive programs..... It's because their Teens... i.e Not finished growing yet.
I changed alot between the ages of 12 and 20.. Believe it or not most kids will grow-up and became Barack Obamas, for even he smoked a joint or two

[Charly]

Ask him if he was ever told to remember something traumatic in a strange closed-eye exercise (or imagine he was in the situation).  No
If yes to the above, Ask him what happened after that (directly)

Ask him if he liked the workshops / propheets. (probably yes.. for now)  Not really.  They were OK.  (he only did the first 2)

Ask him if Tim Brace was the facilitator in the workshops / propheets.  No. Each one had a different facilitator.

Ask him if he ever felt pressured to disclose something he wasn't comfortable with.   Yes.

Ask him what would happened if kids complained to parents.  You got in trouble for "manipulating".

Ask him if he felt parents were kept in the dark.  Yes

If so, how?  no details

Ask him if he ever lost hope.  Uh, I guess.

Ask him if others did.  I guess.

Ask him if he feels like he was changed into a "new person" or discovered his "real self". (or if this happened in wilderness).

Ask him if he felt like he was being toyed with. at times

Ask him if he feels the program was there to make money, or to help kids.  The founders really believed their model of program was the best way to help kids. they weren't making much money.  There is a lot of overhead.

Ask him if he feels those "video game addict" kids truly needed to be there.  Not as much, but they could be pretty screwed up.

Ask him if he feels like program would never have let him graduate, even if he had followed all the rules.   Not sure.  I wasn't a big favorite.

Ask him how many graduations he saw.  3 groups.  (August, December, May)

Ask him if there were any runaways.  2 kids from my group ran away early on.  They went to wilderness after getting caught and came back to Carlbrook and graduated.

..

[psy]

@charley

I noticed he didn't answer one question:

Ask him if he feels like he was changed into a "new person" or discovered his "real self". (or if this happened in wilderness).

That one i was actually really looking forward to him answering.  If it's not too late, and he feels comfortable with it, I would be quite curious as to what he thinks.

Oh.  just for shits.  as a little exercise:

Ask him if he can write about what happened in those workshops in detail (not for fornits, or me, or you, or anybody, but for himself alone).  It's just a little suggestion as an "exercise".  Why?  because i am curious to see if he can or not.

I think your son may be interested in what he discovers in the process of attempting to write about those things in detail.  It sounds stupid, but tell him to humor me and try it.  He'll probably understand why I asked soon after he starts.  My guess is, if he's anything like me, it will spark a lot of questions on his part.