Author Topic: Carlbrook  (Read 566559 times)

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Offline E Adams

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Re: Carlbrook
« Reply #2685 on: July 11, 2009, 11:55:14 PM »
Interesting stuff on CEDU etc. I went to CEDU, went to RMA in BF ID (2+ yrs), while T Brace was headmaster, experienced all the stuff discussed in the "documentary", knew most of the people talked about, did "work details", propheets, I&M workshop and Summit, "split" etc, the whole 9 yards. And to a certain extent the facts as told are just a small part of the story. People who "volunteer" information and lambast the schools are the people who feel the strongest about it (by and large), who had "bad" experiences for whatever reason. Most people who went there do not post on message boards or write articles or make documentaries. Most just get on with their lives. Some don't. I haven't read everything on this site but I did know Tim Brace (I was a 16-18 yr old student and he was a ~40 yr old staff member, then Headmaster). My sense from what I've read here (and I've certainly not read all of it) is that most of the negativity comes via 2nd hand sources or public articles or due to some agenda or another or is just trite -- or worse. The Tim Brace I knew was (and probably still is) a pretty good guy (in the sense that I believe he legitimately cared about kids - canNOT be said for many). Maybe some people didn't like him or don't but saying things like "my brother says he' just a ____" or whatever it is - that's just not very descriptive - or meaningful - is it?  I saw and heard some pretty weird crap while I was in high school - but you can see a lot worse today on the News. To say with a straight face that CEDU or RMA or Carlbrook (for that matter) is cultish or involved in brainwashing or some big evil conspiracry (more than possibly a form of tuition-level piracy at least) seems a bit left of the point - if not ludicrous. You go in, you come out, you're the same person but with a few more experiences all in all. What a person chooses to do with that experience would seem to be up to them. Some people go to scary movies and see monsters, some see actors in make up. Basically I guess all I'm saying is that there were some screwed up people in that whole game but T Brace was never one of them. I can't speak for everyone but so it seems to me.
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Offline try another castle

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Re: Carlbrook
« Reply #2686 on: July 12, 2009, 01:00:42 AM »
Quote
What a person chooses to do with that experience would seem to be up to them. Some people go to scary movies and see monsters, some see actors in make up.

Interesting. So, to be clear, are you saying that a person who suffers from trauma is choosing to do so?

Kind of that whole "I am responsible for what I see." line from the summit?

I find your logic of comparing 2.5 years at CEDU to the experience of watching a 90 minute horror movie to be inherently flawed. Especially since you can always walk out of a movie theater. (Although, interestingly enough, I have always maintained that if there were ever to be a fictionalized film based on CEDU, the only person qualified to really capture the feel of that place would be David Lynch.)

Also, it seems you are conflating the people who frequent forums on this issue to be people who haven't "gotten over it". What is your basis for that observation? Simply because they choose to talk about it? Process it? Do you also feel that having an agenda for putting a stop to the troubled teen industry can be  boiled down to butthurt plain and simple? Granted, there are lots of people who still have issues and are working towards closure, (and I personally don't think that's a bad thing) but are you absolutely sure that every single person who chooses to discuss their experience are navel-gazers who pick at emotional scabs? Or is it just people who have been out 20+ years? What is your statute of limitations on that? 5? 10? And if so, how did  you come to that conclusion? Was there a study? A control group? (I personally maintain that there *should* be a study, actually. Let's see how "successful" these duck farms really are, once and for all.)

I also call into question your assumption that people who choose not to discuss it have "moved on", whatever that means. Outward appearances and actions do not always belie how someone has processed an experience. I personally feel that people are all over the map on this, whether they are outspoken about it or not, and I would never be so arrogant as to assume where they are at with their experience simply by their decision regarding how they conduct themselves outwardly. Granted, I didnt always have that opinion.

BTW, I was there when you were, during the "camelot" era, and as for where I "am at" regarding that experience... well.. I don't really take offense at people assuming one way or the other with me. Everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion, of which I care little. Fact of the matter is, the phenomena of "tough love" is fascinating in how it manifests itself, both on a personal, political and sociological level, and well, that is something that's pretty darn interesting in my eyes. Regardless of whether you find your experience positive, negative, or just "meh", you can't deny that it was weird.

As for the Tim Brace issue, I agree that there are a lot of differing opinions on him. I was there when he was headmaster, spent many an hour in his raps, on the floor, he ran my IWTL, etc... My personal impression is that overall, he was far from simply complicit when it came to towing the party line. He was a staunch advocate of the CEDU way, and that, I certainly have problems with. He actively partook in fostering the melodrama associated with the regressive techniques used in CEDU's form of "therapy", whether it be in raps or propheet/workshops. Im sure you can corroborate how raps and such with him often involved running one's anger, and resulted in reducing most participants into a sobbing, weepy mess. Oh, a Tim Brace rap, well, looks like everyone will be "taking care of their feelings". Oh, Tim's running the warm up, most people will be crying like babies after that.

Not sure about you, but I do NOT find that to be a valid form of therapy, and I find it to be counterproductive to any sort of actual emotional development. He is not, and never was, qualified to "treat" any teen, nor assist them with emotional matters, and his opinions on "emotional growth" were as flawed as everyone else's there. Plain and simple, his tactics and behavior were harmful... at BEST.

The fact that he seems like "an ok guy" because he wasn't as confrontational as other staff (and I agree, he was not known for aggressively attacking someone's character) is misleading, because his tactics regarding "therapy" were just as misguided. It's actually rather pathetic that he was considered "ok", especially when it is as a result of comparing him with the brutal staff. Sure, he was "ok" and seemed "nice", but at CEDU, that's not saying a whole fuck of a lot.
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Offline Inculcated

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Re: Carlbrook
« Reply #2687 on: July 12, 2009, 02:05:38 AM »
Well stated.
I’ve got to give props to someone who can frame an cogent response like yours that aptly includes suitable application of both the terms conflate and butthurt .
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“A person needs a little madness, or else they never dare cut the rope and be free”  Nikos Kazantzakis

Offline E Adams

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Re: Carlbrook
« Reply #2688 on: July 12, 2009, 03:19:56 AM »
No. I am not sure about any of it. I suppose I think of the staff about like I think of stockbrokers, misguided & not very bright. I took it all with a grain of salt - and I don;t have a stockbroker now. Maybe it's because I was delivered to RMA by a 6'8" dude in penny loafers, I don't know? I didn't care for most of the staff, personally, and thought the program was silly. I still have friends from that time though (students) - some liked it, some didn't. Some felt violated, some didn't. I certainly don't feel strongly enough to research how other people feel about something that I went through. If you were there at the same time I was then we went through the same thing with the same people and maybe you were scarred by it and maybe I wasn't? Maybe we were in that IWTL together with TB? (I think they called it the Storeroom?) Maybe you found TB an evil nefarious person and maybe I saw him differently - who can say? I thought the program was pretty silly for the most part, and I knew it then, and I think it now - but I was never starved or beaten or whatever. I had to read JLS 1 too many times, hear a crap-pot full of bad John Denver tunes and move some rocks around - live at the "bingo parlor" and dig an outhouse hole, but I got over it. Maybe you're more sensitive than I am or maybe I'm just not in touch with my feelings. My point is that I neither find it negative nor positive, it was just something that happened. Maybe I learned from it or maybe not. And believe me, if I paraphrased anything from the Summit it was strictly accidental - the workshops were w/o a doubt some of the goofier things I've witnessed in my life but they were not "damaging" - to me. Maybe if you are captivated by that sort of thing they could be and I'm not saying you are. I think the staff were mostly just banal and if they suffered from anything it was stupidity more than anything else. There are exceptions of course - somebody was profiting from it after all. But I did not think TB was evil or had some nefarious purpose. DK-B on the other hand. Well I thought that guy was a $%*@!
So you were there, huh, 83-85ish? I had forgotten about the whole Camelot angle - exciting stuff.
My favorite staff member, if I had one, was Steve Kaufman (I think that was his name?). Remember him? Beard, glasses, local. Don;t think he ever really bought into it either, left shortly after I did if I recall?
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Offline E Adams

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Re: Carlbrook
« Reply #2689 on: July 12, 2009, 03:33:26 AM »
And I never meant to imply it wasn't "weird". That was it's saving grace, that you couldn't miss the effin weird - It was bad Stephen King fiction cornfield f**k weird. I knew that when I was 16. I think if you somehow missed the weird, which seems almost impossible to me, then maybe you get messed up or join the staff or something? People did that I guess. But most noticed the weird right off. I split the first half of my second hour and was gone a week there was so much weird. You could smell the weird. It oozed weird. But it was just weird. And weird is funny. To me. I'm not gonna do a study on it or anything so I'll qualify that. I thought it was weird. Some people, possibly, in some research control group may find it normal. But you and I, we can agree: That place was weird. I just didn't find it particularly "dangerous," that's all.
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Offline try another castle

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Re: Carlbrook
« Reply #2690 on: July 12, 2009, 03:41:51 AM »
aah. bingo parlor.  you were there before me, a bit. by the time I arrived, the bingo parlor was a girls dorm. no more bingo. I spent quite a bit of time "under the house". One of the few places where it was actually relatively warm. (No I am not a girl, but I was when I was there... long story)

I got there in 87. Still the camelot era. The next phase was "here forever", which happened when I was in upper school (89). Sadly, I was responsible for the eyesore of a poster that ended up on the wall after that staff workshop... the one which covered up "camelot"

You may, however, have known people in the peer group who graduated about a week after I got there. Jackie (barbara walters' daughter) was in it. I believe they were younger students when you left.

but I do know mike parr, (as per your statement regarding escort) although i myself didnt end up a "parr baby", my parents had definitely considered him if they couldnt get me up there by trickery.

steve kaufman.. im not sure I remember him. but then again, there are many I dont remember. I knew two steves, one who got there after you, the other who worked with quest, although when you were there, it might have been challenge. (quest ended up with the farm, challenge moved on to either working in the woodshop with greg springett or the kitchen) steve allman, I think was his name.

If you got there in 83, I am definitely intrigued. You were there right around the time RMA started, shortly after the "magnificent seven" planted roots and built the main lodge. (I think that was 82. Remember all of the photos in the spring lodge?) There are some things I would like to ask you, if you dont mind.  Ill send you a PM.

Here's  my thing. I no longer begrudge ANYONE  who has a differing opinion about their experience than I do about mine. For me, it was traumatic, but thankfully, the fallout was manageable, and I was able to figure things out for myself. When it comes to any people from the CEDU schools, whether they be direct sister satellites or clones, I am in favor of discourse and comparing notes.
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Offline E Adams

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Re: Carlbrook
« Reply #2691 on: July 12, 2009, 03:43:28 AM »
And about T Brace? I wasn't talking about "lots of opinions" of him - I was stating my opinion. I thought he was a pretty decent human being. I don't know him well enough to go farther than that. But do I agree with his philosophy? No. Do I think his intentions were evil or he was trying to emotonally screw with people or was he a sadist? No. He's also not godfather to my kids, if that clarifies...
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Offline E Adams

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Re: Carlbrook
« Reply #2692 on: July 12, 2009, 03:48:22 AM »
Yes, I got there early '83, knew all the 7. I was somewhere around the 30th student I think. There was no new lodge and Mel still lived there when I arrived. All that was there was the old lodge and the Hobbit (at least what it was called then).
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Offline try another castle

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Re: Carlbrook
« Reply #2693 on: July 12, 2009, 04:01:27 AM »
I hope you dont mind me saying this, but you are a serious gold mine! Anything you could tell any of us about the early days of RMA is extremely welcome!


And as for Tim Brace... I have to say... to his benefit.. and even though he has another school that is in the CEDU clone template, that if there were any staff I would feel comfortable really having a serious debate with about the ideology of RMA, it would be him... and maybe Stacy.
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Offline E Adams

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Re: Carlbrook
« Reply #2694 on: July 12, 2009, 04:08:00 AM »
Tell me what you want to know and I'll see what I can remember.  I actually got to RMA before Tim Brace come to think of it.
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Offline try another castle

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Re: Carlbrook
« Reply #2695 on: July 12, 2009, 04:12:17 AM »
Quote from: "E Adams"
Tell me what you want to know and I'll see what I can remember.  I actually got to RMA before Tim Brace come to think of it.

I sent you a PM about stuff I didnt think was relevant to the boards proper.

I guess my big question is... since you were around Mel (and Im assuming Brigette), what did you think of him/her?

Also.. was there any mention of Synanon?


Did mel run any of  your raps, propheets/workshops?


FYI, I knew patrick stambusky. He came back to work with the voyageurs shortly after I arrived.

He's running this school called Monarch now. Rookey was with him for a while until he started his own school. Strangely, patrick  changed his last name to Mckenna. Nobody here is able to ascertain why.
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Offline E Adams

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Re: Carlbrook
« Reply #2696 on: July 12, 2009, 04:27:22 AM »
I thought they were both a**heads. The same as everyone else.

Heard Synanon for the first time today.
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Offline E Adams

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Re: Carlbrook
« Reply #2697 on: July 12, 2009, 04:41:21 AM »
Pat was there when I arrived. Didn't care much for him or hang out with him. Seemed sort of a dumb guy. The name change thing is weird.

Mel didn't run any raps or propheets while I was there. Never. Never even sat in one. He ate in the Dining Room some. He watched people work from the porch. He had a brother, Al Wasserman, who came and stayed at the school for about 6 mos. He was friendlier and interesting and he and Mel didn't seem to get on that well - possibly for those reasons. Everybody sucked up to Mel, he mainly tried to act like some shadowy mysterious figure. He was pretty rude. He would occasionally come up to you and just say really off the wall stuff. He did do several General Meetings and he spoke briefly about the way we were about to do a big building project. The staff would occasionally attempt to "interpret" his off the wall remarks for us.  Mainly Dan Earle acted as his mouthpiece. He was not a very sociable cat. Big, fat, mustachioed. His wife was friendlier but if you were a kid you had the unmistakable impression that she was in some way defective for being married to that guy. She wore moo moo dresses and jewelry. It was odd to see jewelry then so it sticks with you. My impression was that he was not a very enlightened lifeform. This was the consensus among ALL of the students I spoke to.      

Rookey was the kitchen guy. He worked in the kitchen. He started going through raps I think right before I left. He had a moustache too it seems like. That was sort of trendy look I guess.
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Offline E Adams

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Re: Carlbrook
« Reply #2698 on: July 12, 2009, 05:03:46 AM »
I left July 85 - don;t remember Jackie or recognize the other names you mentioned.

Lot of attrition in my peergroup. By the time I "graduated" only 7 from the original 20 or so. There are certainly others who would know more about that stuff than I would. I think the school started late September 82 and they roughed it all winter. Didn't add many students until January 83 probably. I arrived in March. It was very primitive. Broke ground on the new lodge that summer.

If there's anything else you want to know just ask and I will check back.
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: Carlbrook
« Reply #2699 on: July 12, 2009, 12:10:19 PM »
I'm not quoting the right
TAC, you have patience I do not. An organization is not going to toture everyone and leave one alone. An organization that has forcing people to participate in torture as its modality is not going to leave one person uninvolved.

So, when i read posts like this, I read "staff" doing damage control, a troll, or some majorly brainwashed cult member. The AARC and Straights has these cases. Accordingly, so will CEDU
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