Carlbrook

[Nihilanthic]

Except in the army they have guns and can frag a summabitch who hurts them  :rofl:

[Anonymous]

Send em to the french foreign legion.  :evil:

[Charly]

A few comments- just have a minute right now.

Deborah- I agree with some of what you are saying, but have to disagree with the concept that ALL programs have the main goal of making money.  I know for a fact that both programs my son was in do not provide much money for the principals.  They are making a living, but not raking it in.  The people I met truly believed they had a program model that would help many kids (not all).  I'm not saying this is true, but money was not the motivator.
Secondly, the wilderness program with which I am most familiar (have spent time in the field myself twice and have talked to past/present staff and teens) has tons of safeguards and there is an extremely low chance of harm.  My son really took a close look at it when he went back the second time (willingly) and really believes this particular program customizes the treatment plans.  I know they did in my son's case.  
As a parent, I don't regret spending the money for my son to be someplace where he had a chance to mature. It worked in his case, and he wasn't abused.  I agree with you that we were lucky and that there is a strong possibility for abuse to occur in these programs. They DO try to break the kids down.  I agree with this process to a certain extent.  It IS what happens in the military academies and in other parts of society.  It is not necessarily a bad thing.
After talking to my son, I feel Carlbrook was too "one size fits all".  That may be the nature of the beast, and is a real flaw. I guess that is what leads parents and kids to get sideways with the administration.  ALL of our kids are "exceptions" and all are unique. While there are some common traits, every kid is different and the therapeutic process should be different.  To be fair, they try to do this to an extent, but the staffing is not such that it can really be done effectively.  They come up with a plan, and it just sort of falls apart.  These kids demand a lot of time and attention (and so do the parents) and the staff really burns out.  

Re: faking it until you make it.   First of all, most of the parents don't know the kid is faking it and neither do the staff. Sometimes you know, but not usually.  My kid went through a phase where he was a model student on the surface, except he got busted after a month or so of this outward perfection for having a relationship with a girl.
Secondly, as a parent, you feel you have no other option.  If you trust the program and the therapist (which we did for much of the time), you ride it out.  In our case, our son wanted certain educational and athletic opportunities, and while it seems a little circuitous, the route he took (even though it included Carlbrook) got him there.

Psy- Carlbrook has good relationships with Admissions Directors at a number of colleges and prep schools, and their placement record is great.  I hate that you lost out  on some opportunities due to Benchmark, but it sounds like you are in a good place now anyway.

Re:  Video game addiction.  It seems silly, and these kids aren't stealing cars and selling drugs, but they can exhibit some really frightening behaviors and do some destructive things.  They wind up living in a totally solitary world and cut themselves totally off from society.  Is a teen program the answer?  I don't know.  I know these kids tend to do well after program.  It is sort of a forced socialization process (the program).    

Later....

[Nihilanthic]

No offence but you're kind of regurgitating the same old boilerplate. Unless there is an actual diagnosis you can't just say "they're displaying frightening behavior" and throw them into some program/tbs/rtc/lmnop, that is called "quackery" and "bullshit".

Furthermore, nobody here has ever denied there are plenty of 'true believers' who don't want or make money, its the people at the TOP.

Also, just what therapy does 'wilderness' provide?

I'm still waiting on any proof of any good done by any program, and so are a lot of other people...

But before I go, one last thing

They DO try to break the kids down. I agree with this process to a certain extent. It IS what happens in the military academies and in other parts of society. It is not necessarily a bad thing.

Says who, YOU? The programs?

When you get a Ph.D by your name and can somehow carry more weight than all the psychologists who have ALREADY spoken out against this kind of toughlove nonsense, then you can say that. As it stands now, you most certainly can not. It is NOT a good thing, its a pathological effect, and this has been studied pretty extensively, and it is also not something recent.

LGATs got debunked decades ago... and now anyone can find out almost anything known to man by typing it into "google", so ignorance is not an excuse anymore.

[hanzomon4]

@Charly: it was me who brought up the money(:EDIT:My bad Deb I saw just saw were you brought it up), and no I was not talking about the staff. Programs hire unqualified people because they don't have to pay them what they would a professional. The money bags are the owners/founders.

Also breaking a person down may happen in the military, but the military ain't therapy. In fact you have to meet certain psychological requirements, which can be quite strenuous, to enter the military. The military is not for people with mental health issues. If you take a person suffering from depression, OCD, eating disorders, bipolar disorder, or any other mental health issue and place them in the stressful and punitive environment of a boot-camp or wilderness program for treatment you put them at great risk. People with mental health issues can not just change their behavior because you place them in a highly stressful environment. The stressful environment of wilderness and boot-camp programs is the worst place for them because the mentally ill don't do well under stress, that's why they can't join the army.

Now for kids with behavioral problems, not linked to a mental health condition, a boot-camp will only take them out of there environment. However when they return home if the home environment is unchanged the same behavior will start back up again. Thats because behaviors are dependent on ones environment, behavior is reactionary in nature. Like I stated in my last post, therapy not focused on the why is not therapy. The notion that "your bad choices is the reason for your problems" is blind in one eye. True you can control what you choose, but the question is not can you it's why do you choose the choices you choose. Taking the punitive approach to behavior problems will always cause the why to be neglected or relegated to second fiddle in contrast to the behavior.

One thing I hear quiet often from program supporters is "he/she is doing good now, so the program must have helped". Well, kids doing well post-program is not the measuring stick one should use to measure whether or not a program is abusive. Rape survivors can do well... Child abuse survivors can do well... People can do well after having an abusive  experience and like me and others have said growing up changes behavior without a doubt.

Charly, you made an interesting statement about your intentions for sending your son to a wilderness(?) program:

As a parent, I don't regret spending the money for my son to be someplace where he had a chance to mature

 I can't knock you for that statement, as it takes alot for a parent to admit that they could not provide the proper environment for their child. I have some questions regarding the environment you felt he could not mature in, but I want to make it clear that in my opinion there's no reason to send a child to a punitive environment for maturing. Boarding schools do exist that have, trained and qualified teachers, an academic focus, and seek to build up the child, not break them down.  

My questions:

• What specifically was the problem at home to give you the impression that your son needed the punitive environment of a wilderness camp, or boot-camp, in order for him to mature?
• What actions did you take to change your  environment before coming to the conclusion that he needed to be sent away?
• How long did it take for you to realize that you needed to change your environment and how long did you attempt to change your environment before sending him off?
• After you sent him away did you continue trying to change your environment so that he could come back home without facing the same conditions that prompted his behavior?
• Why was it necessary to send him back to a/the program?
• How would you feel if you had to experience your teen years in a punitive environment such as a boot-camp or wilderness program?
• What was the age of your son we he went into the program/s and what was his age after leaving the program/s for good?
• After the program/s did he live with you?

Charly, I really want to thank you for posting here. You post here knowing that most of us will feel that you made at best a mistake and at worst condone child abuse in the name of treatment, and while I disagree with you I do appreciate you for  being willing to discuss this.

[Charly]

hanzomon4-  You don't know my history.      My family's story is all over this forum- in various interpretations.  I readily admit that we lost control of our son and he could not remain in the home environment due to a combination of our parenting and his own "wiring".  I won't go into the whole story here, but would be glad to respond to PM if you want.
Boarding schools-  Our son attended before and after program. He was kicked out of one pre-program, which is part of what led to the need for him to go to wilderness and then a TBS.  He was in program for a year and then finished high school at an excellent prep boarding school and is now in college.  I do not claim the program "worked".  I claim that our son's year away worked in his specific situation.
Our son spent 9 weeks in wilderness and 9 months at Carlbrook (including 7 weeks back in wilderness).  He did not finish the Carlbrook program.  He lived at home for a summer and then went off to boarding school (his choice for academics and athletics) to finish high school. He is very independent and had chosen to go to boarding school at 15 as a high school freshman    As I said above, he completely agrees with our decision to send him to wilderness.  (This is him speaking 2 1/2 years post-program.)  At the time, he was furious.  He does not agree that Carlbrook was the right "next step" although he understands we didn't know of any alternatives.  He also understands that going to Carlbrook allowed him to get where he is today- at an Ivy League college as a DI athlete.  This is where he wanted to be.  My husband and I are willing to pay for whatever schools our kids want to attend as long as they take advantage of what the schools offer.
Yes, we did everything possible to avoid sending our son to a therapeutic program.  We looked into every possible educational alternative and tried every kind of counseling. He was 16 1/2 when he went in and 17 1/2 when he came out.  He lost a year in the free world, but as he said yesterday, at least it gave him time to read a lot and re-group.  He did two full years of high school (did a second junior year to start at his final school because you can't enter as a senior) and had two Carlbrook classmates at the school with him for the second year.  The other two kids are at excellent colleges, too, and are doing well.  Another peer from Carlbrook is now at Yale. Others are back using drugs and another is dead.  After reading this forum and speaking privately to some of the regular posters, I am not an advocate of teen help programs.  I DO think some are safe and are non-abusive. I think my family did what was right for us based on the choices available and the information we had.  I am sorry we had to do it, but I can't look back-even now- and see another option.  My goal now is to find those other options for future families and to make sure the full information is available for families about programs.
Not every kid needs to be removed from the influences of his or her home, friends, school and community.  Mine did.  It was very clear. I was a terrible teenager, too, but things were a lot different back then.
I AM talking about the owners when I discuss the two programs I know about.  No one is getting rich right now from these programs. There are a ton of expenses, insurance and overhead.  These people care about the work they are doing.  We may not agree with the methods, and I am not saying this is the case with any other program but these two, but these owners are doing what they think is right.

[hanzomon4]

I find it odd that your son spent so much time away from home, 15 > 17 and only a summer at home before leaving again. That is really beyond the scope of this discussion so I won't go into it...

I noticed in your post that your son says that he understands that "Carlbrook allowed him to get where he is today". I can't take that seriously because it's part of the program that you believe that. Now I will admit I don't know Carlbrook's specifics but from what I do know Carlbrook seems to fit the mold of most abusive(which I'll define later) facilities. The main characteristic of such schools is the use of thought-reform, and when it comes to thought-reform I have to look at the program through cult-aware lenses. I don't know your history(100 pages is alot of reading, even for me) but from what I've read on the last 2-3 pages it appears to me that he owes nothing to Carlbrook. You describe him to be self motivated and I would attribute his success to that character trait...

Now when it comes to abuse in these programs it may not fit the mold of what we would normally consider to be abuse.. I'm going to post some quotes from Margaret Thaler Singer's article How Thought Reform works which bascially explains why programs using thought-reform  are abusive, dangerous and effective in changing a persons view on everything including a persons self, past and future...

With coercive persuasion you can change people's attitudes without their knowledge and volition. You can create new "attitudes" where they will do things willingly which they formerly may have detested, things which previously only torture, physical pain, or drugs could have coerced them to do.

Coercive persuasion or thought reform as it is sometimes known, is best understood as a coordinated system of graduated coercive influence and behavior control designed to deceptively and surreptitiously manipulate and influence individuals, usually in a group setting, in order for the originators of the program to profit in some way, normally financially or politically.

There are seven main tactic types found in various combinations in a coercive persuasion program. A coercive persuasion program can still be quite effective without the presence of ALL seven of these tactic types.

TACTIC 1. The individual is prepared for thought reform through increased suggestibility and/or "softening up," specifically through hypnotic or other suggestibility-increasing techniques such as: A. Extended audio, visual, verbal, or tactile fixation drills; B. Excessive exact repetition of routine activities; C. Decreased sleep; D. Nutritional restriction.

TACTIC 2. Using rewards and punishments, efforts are made to establish considerable control over a person's social environment, time, and sources of social support. Social isolation is promoted. Contact with family and friends is abridged, as is contact with persons who do not share group-approved attitudes. Economic and other dependence on the group is fostered. (In the forerunner to coercive persuasion, brainwashing, this was rather easy to achieve through simple imprisonment.)

TACTIC 3. Disconfirming information and nonsupporting opinions are prohibited in group communication. Rules exist about permissible topics to discuss with outsiders. Communication is highly controlled. An "in-group" language is usually constructed.

TACTIC 4. Frequent and intense attempts are made to cause a person to re-evaluate the most central aspects of his or her experience of self and prior conduct in negative ways. Efforts are designed to destabilize and undermine the subject's basic consciousness, reality awareness, world view, emotional control, and defense mechanisms as well as getting them to reinterpret their life's history, and adopt a new version of causality.

TACTIC 5. Intense and frequent attempts are made to undermine a person's confidence in himself and his judgment, creating a sense of powerlessness.

TACTIC 6. Nonphysical punishments are used such as intense humiliation, loss of privilege, social isolation, social status changes, intense guilt, anxiety, manipulation and other techniques for creating strong aversive emotional arousals, etc.

TACTIC 7. Certain secular psychological threats [force] are used or are present: That failure to adopt the approved attitude, belief, or consequent behavior will lead to severe punishment or dire consequence, (e.g. physical or mental illness, the reappearance of a prior physical illness, drug dependence, economic collapse, social failure, divorce, disintegration, failure to find a mate, etc.).

I would suggest that, sense you're helping other families find good programs, that you read the whole article.

 Now If any facility uses these tactics(many do) then, regardless of their intentions, it's wrong. I believe that thought-reform is what makes abusive facilities so difficult to shutdown or reform because:

• The abuse that's alleged, in most cases, is central to the successful use of thought-reform. Tactic 6 contains what most survivors describe here on this forum.
• Those who's thought's are reformed will be pro-program no matter what. This accounts for two people giving completely different  reports about the same program, one glowing the  other horrifying. This makes it difficult for teen advocates because basically you have a he said she said situation, and most would believe the "reformed" over the "manipulator"

Now only you and your son knows what his program was like, so was it abusive? Does his experience fit any of the tactic types listed above? I don't know, this is my first time hearing of Carlbrook. However if Carlbrook operates like a WWASPS, a Straight spin-off, or basically uses any of these tactic types(in any varying combination) I would have to conclude that yes the school abuses children in an effort to change their behavior using thought-reform, it's abusive, wrong and dangerous. The pervasive use of thought-reform makes me pause  when ever I hear someone claim that "the program allowed me to get where I am today".

[Charly]

By saying "Carlbrook allowed him to get where he is today", I am not attributing anything to the "program" per se.  I personally think he got something from the program, but that is beside the point. The time at Carlbrook allowed a transcript repair and a "time out" which satisfied future schools- both top level prep schools and highly selective colleges. This is an undisputed fact.  It has nothing to do with any changes in my son, workshops or therapy.  Simply BEING at Carlbrook allowed him to present himself as a kid who had some problems and corrected them.  Whether the Carlbrook program allowed him to conduct himself in a different manner at his next school and succeed beyond expectations  or whether he simply gained maturity and self-control is  anyone's guess.
Yes, he was away from home a lot.  My daughter spent her last two years of high school at boarding school, too, for entirely different reasons.  Lots of kids go to boarding school, especially high-achieving kids like mine (not bragging-this is a fact).  Again, it isn't right for every kid, but it was for ours.  [/b]

[Anonymous]

It isn't right for every kid, but it was for ours.?

[Anonymous]

That would actually be a Service Mark, (sm), not a trademark (?).

Unless, of course, the child is actually the product here, in which case ? is correct.

[psy]

@Charley

Ok.  So your son may not have broken under the thought reform aspects of the program.  It's rare, and i'm still not entirely convinced as to whether or not he was unaffected (not sure if it's really possible).

How many parents took their kid out like you did?  If you hadn't removed him, do you think they would have been able to "break him down"?

Now keep in mind "breaking him down" is only justifiable in the military because it is needed in true life or death situations.  Breaking someone down, to modify their behavior to get them to stop doing something without addressing the root of the problem is not justifiable.  The military also would not dare use tactics that these schools do on their own recruits, nor would they use their existing tactics on people (especially kids) with psychological issues (such as depression, etc).

If a kid likes video games, and appears to be isolated i doubt this is the case.  In many cases, the kid probably associates with other "gamers" often communicating with them online.  Just because it is not face-to-face does not mean it is not social interaction.  Would you send a football player to program because it appeared to consume his life?

Surely you are familiar with the 12 steps.  Can you force somebody to take step one and realize he / she has a problem?  The answer normally would be no, but with enough coercion you can convince a person that they have a problem they do not actually have.  (see my info on LGATs)  This results in a lot of the "they saved my life" testimonials.

The problem is, that sooner or later, in 90% of cases those kids realize how they were manipulated and they often rebel against their programming, throwing the baby(more like aborted fetus) out with the bathwater: vowing to do everything they told him/her not to do.  If change is not from the heart, it is not really change, but an illusion.

Programs do not respect peoples free will and are usually willing to use any (usually unethical) means necessary to provide the parents with evidence that what they are doing is working.  (if you had not taken your son out, he would have lost hope, and he would have broken).  After my parents refused to take me out it's exactly what happened to me.  Many programs care little as to whether their methods are effective in the long term, and they have no way of knowing if they are.  What they care about is marketing.

Sure there are some program staff who truly probably believe they are helping the kids but I doubt they ignore money entirely.  I wouldn't believe what programs reported as to their "expenses" if I were you.  I know in my case, parents were billed for a lot more than the program actually delivered on (though mostly legally, through a "student revolving fund" among other fine print details.)  You would have to do a serious audit in order to figure out whether or not Carlbrook has as many financial needs as they claim.  Until then, i am assuming you are just taking their word for it.

[hanzomon4]

Sorry folks it took me a while to get back. I added to my post only to realize I was a few minutes(and a page) late, but I think it's relevant so I'll post the add on here.....



Now when it comes to abuse in these programs it may not fit the mold of what we would normally consider to be abuse.. I'm going to post some quotes from Margaret Thaler Singer's article How Thought Reform works which basically explains why programs using thought-reform  are abusive, dangerous and effective in changing a persons view on everything including a persons self, past and future...

With coercive persuasion you can change people's attitudes without their knowledge and volition. You can create new "attitudes" where they will do things willingly which they formerly may have detested, things which previously only torture, physical pain, or drugs could have coerced them to do.

Coercive persuasion or thought reform as it is sometimes known, is best understood as a coordinated system of graduated coercive influence and behavior control designed to deceptively and surreptitiously manipulate and influence individuals, usually in a group setting, in order for the originators of the program to profit in some way, normally financially or politically.

There are seven main tactic types found in various combinations in a coercive persuasion program. A coercive persuasion program can still be quite effective without the presence of ALL seven of these tactic types.

TACTIC 1. The individual is prepared for thought reform through increased suggestibility and/or "softening up," specifically through hypnotic or other suggestibility-increasing techniques such as: A. Extended audio, visual, verbal, or tactile fixation drills; B. Excessive exact repetition of routine activities; C. Decreased sleep; D. Nutritional restriction.

TACTIC 2. Using rewards and punishments, efforts are made to establish considerable control over a person's social environment, time, and sources of social support. Social isolation is promoted. Contact with family and friends is abridged, as is contact with persons who do not share group-approved attitudes. Economic and other dependence on the group is fostered. (In the forerunner to coercive persuasion, brainwashing, this was rather easy to achieve through simple imprisonment.)

TACTIC 3. Disconfirming information and nonsupporting opinions are prohibited in group communication. Rules exist about permissible topics to discuss with outsiders. Communication is highly controlled. An "in-group" language is usually constructed.

TACTIC 4. Frequent and intense attempts are made to cause a person to re-evaluate the most central aspects of his or her experience of self and prior conduct in negative ways. Efforts are designed to destabilize and undermine the subject's basic consciousness, reality awareness, world view, emotional control, and defense mechanisms as well as getting them to reinterpret their life's history, and adopt a new version of causality.

TACTIC 5. Intense and frequent attempts are made to undermine a person's confidence in himself and his judgment, creating a sense of powerlessness.

TACTIC 6. Nonphysical punishments are used such as intense humiliation, loss of privilege, social isolation, social status changes, intense guilt, anxiety, manipulation and other techniques for creating strong aversive emotional arousals, etc.

TACTIC 7. Certain secular psychological threats [force] are used or are present: That failure to adopt the approved attitude, belief, or consequent behavior will lead to severe punishment or dire consequence, (e.g. physical or mental illness, the reappearance of a prior physical illness, drug dependence, economic collapse, social failure, divorce, disintegration, failure to find a mate, etc.).

I would suggest that, sense you're helping other families find good programs, that you read the whole article.

 Now If any facility uses these tactics(many do) then, regardless of their intentions, it's wrong. I believe that thought-reform is what makes abusive facilities so difficult to shutdown or reform because:

• The abuse that's alleged, in most cases, is central to the successful use of thought-reform. Tactic 6 contains what most survivors describe here on this forum.
• Those who's thought's are reformed will be pro-program no matter what. This accounts for two people giving completely different  reports about the same program, one glowing the  other horrifying. This makes it difficult for teen advocates because basically you have a he said she said situation, and most would believe the "reformed" over the "manipulator"

Now only you and your son knows what his program was like, so was it abusive? Does his experience fit any of the tactic types listed above? I don't know, this is my first time hearing of Carlbrook. However if Carlbrook operates like a WWASPS, a Straight spin-off, or basically uses any of these tactic types(in any varying combination) I would have to conclude that yes the school abuses children in an effort to change their behavior using thought-reform, it's abusive, wrong and dangerous. The pervasive use of thought-reform makes me pause  when ever I hear someone claim that "the program allowed me to get where I am today".

[Anonymous]

Wow Im shocked, this is to all the people who are posting here because they are against helping out troubled teens and against a school which seems to be helping them out. All of you are classifying Carlbrook from what you have googled on the internet and what others have told you. Both of which aren't very reliable sources to have such strong opinions. You are stereotyping it from what you've heard about other theraputic schools, NOT CARLBROOK,(they are ALL different). In fact Carlbrook originated to be diffferent from other theraputic schools. Which is why Carlbrook isn't a theraputic school, its an emotional growth school-very different. I understand you all obviously have a lot of time on your hands and feel the need to express your resentment here. But maybe the people to post on this forum should be the ones with a little more experience and intelligence about the school.

[Oz girl]

So how does an emotional growth school do things differently?
in the event that a kid does well academically at Carlbrook are they allowed to opt out of anything in the Emotional growth area on the grounds that they have decided that this is not a form of therapy or growth which works for them?
if not what happens to recalcitrant kids?

[Troll Control]

Wow Im shocked, this is to all the people who are posting here because they are against helping out troubled teens and against a school which seems to be helping them out. All of you are classifying Carlbrook from what you have googled on the internet and what others have told you. Both of which aren't very reliable sources to have such strong opinions. You are stereotyping it from what you've heard about other theraputic schools, NOT CARLBROOK,(they are ALL different). In fact Carlbrook originated to be diffferent from other theraputic schools. Which is why Carlbrook isn't a theraputic school, its an emotional growth school-very different. I understand you all obviously have a lot of time on your hands and feel the need to express your resentment here. But maybe the people to post on this forum should be the ones with a little more experience and intelligence about the school.

:roll:  :roll:  :roll:  :roll:  :roll: