Typical Day at Sagewalk

[Anonymous]

On 2005-08-26 12:36:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Actually, the program was quite strong academically and there was no set-backs in that area. Never was a social problem and there certainly is not post-program. There was plenty of interaction with peers at the program- most from similar backgrounds.

Kid was in program for 1 year- long enough to mature and learn to make better choices.

Do you really think that while kids are in these programs that the parents just enjoy a long vacation?  A lot of therapeutic work is going on in the family- both in connection with the program and at home.

I can not emphasize enough to innocent parents who might stumble onto this thread while searching for help with their teens that these anti-program people who post here do not have even the slightest grasp of reality. "

What program? Can you stop talking in generalities, you aren't making any sense. I didn't realize there was only ONE program experience available...?

Stop applying one standard. STOP. STOP IT NOW!

YES, some kids were sent for very devious motives, I know this because I was at a program and talked to many other kids. You live in fantasy land. You really do.

[Antigen]

On 2005-08-26 12:36:00, Anonymous wrote:

I can not emphasize enough to innocent parents who might stumble onto this thread while searching for help with their teens that these anti-program people who post here do not have even the slightest grasp of reality.

No, evidently you can't. But can you back that (rather insulting) claim w/ anything close to reality based reasoning. We have no grasp on the issue at all... except, of course, having lived it ourselves as clients, staff or parents.

You don't get everything you want. A dictatorship would be a lot
easier.
--GW Büsh, Governor of Texas. Governing Magazine, 7/98

[Nonconformistlaw]

Anon said -----"Actually, the program was quite strong academically and there was no set-backs in that area. Never was a social problem and there certainly is not post-program. There was plenty of interaction with peers at the program- most from similar backgrounds.
Kid was in program for 1 year- long enough to mature and learn to make better choices.
Do you really think that while kids are in these programs that the parents just enjoy a long vacation? A lot of therapeutic work is going on in the family- both in connection with the program and at home.
I can not emphasize enough to innocent parents who might stumble onto this thread while searching for help with their teens that these anti-program people who post here do not have even the slightest grasp of reality."-------


No grasp of reality? :flame: Spare me..... :roll: I think spending 20 months involved in a progam gives me a DAMN GOOD sense of PROGRAM REALITY..........

Every word I just said IS a very common, severely negative consequence of a program...........

Quite strong academically? GIVE DETAILS!!!! Do you by chance have documented independent studies to verify that there are no educational setbacks? I sure as hell was set back academically!

Please explain how interracting in a progam teaches children how to interract in the REAL WORLD!!!!.....for the real world is NOT remotely similar to a program's artifical structure....

In my program experience...I was forced to   comply, under coercion, without asking questions....choices were NEVER permitted!!!! Exactly how does this teach a child how to make good decisions?

As for maturity....a program's artifical atmosphere combined with mind control does nothing to aid in a child's growth and maturity.

Oh...my parents were not on "vacation" when I was in a program...they were subjected to mind control techniques to a certan extent as well.

For all those innocent parents who stumble onto this forum...I hope it is quite clear that there are DAMN GOOD and JUSTIFIED reasons for the anger kids/parents/former employees/others have toward these programs, and the criticisms of programs ARE documented in a variety of sources, both from personal testimonies and from credible professionals....please come to your OWN independent conclusions...

[Anonymous]

On 2005-08-26 12:36:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Actually, the program was quite strong academically and there was no set-backs in that area. Never was a social problem and there certainly is not post-program. There was plenty of interaction with peers at the program- most from similar backgrounds.

Kid was in program for 1 year- long enough to mature and learn to make better choices.

Do you really think that while kids are in these programs that the parents just enjoy a long vacation?  A lot of therapeutic work is going on in the family- both in connection with the program and at home.

I can not emphasize enough to innocent parents who might stumble onto this thread while searching for help with their teens that these anti-program people who post here do not have even the slightest grasp of reality. "

Poster, you are off the deep end. You will defend your precious program® to the death it would seem. Why don't you talk about the program your child was in. Sounds an awful lot like another friend of ours, Karen.

[Anonymous]

It seems like the kids were going to be set back academically by the fact that when they were home they weren't going to school or were kicked out of school.  A good EG program gets the kids back on track academically.

[Nonconformistlaw]

I can admit that I skipped school on a few rare occasions....but that was corrected by the school principal's rapid intervention...then it never happened again...I chalk that up as a normal teeneager pushing the limits to see what he/she can get away with rather than problematic behavior that set me back acedmically.... And this occurred long before my incarceration in a program.

I can assure you in my case, with the exception noted above, I attended classes regularly, in fact I was well known for having perfect attendance year in year out.

So, academically, I was in a college prep curriculum, and usually got B's and C's....then the program came along and I missed an entire quarter of school with no academic instruction whatsoever...when allowed to return to school, the late night/early morning schedule left little time for homework....in fact, being in group and "applying the program" were considered top priority----school was just something you could squeeze in during freetime...as long as group responsibilities came first....

During the program....my grades declined.....to primarily C's D's and even one F. So thanks to the program....I gaduated with around a 2.2 GPA and could not get into any normal college....when I finally decided to go to college that is...I was forced to work my way up from the community college, prove myself, then I was admitted to a regular 4 year program.....

Oh and by the way, my pre-program grades could have been better if I actually read a textbook...I had undiagnosed ADD so couldnt get through a page. If programs are so interested in supporting academic success....tell me how someting so important can go completely unaddressed?

So, although my experience may differ from others, I have heard other accounts of similar academic set backs....

So, to summarize, I was attending classes regularly, not even close to even being kicked for any reason whatsoever, and the program was NOT interested in getting us back on track academically.

Would anyone else like to attest to how programs can actually set kids back academically? I'm sure Anon would be extremely interested in other input!

Anon....you didnt answer any of my questions by the way......

[Anonymous]

There was a full school day at my son's program.  AP courses were offered along with 4 foreign languages. There is documentation on the top colleges the kids who finished high school at the program went on to attend.  Many of the kids at the program felt that the academics were TOO challenging. My son thought they were easy since he had been an A student at a top prep school (until he was kicked out).  He became a strong reader while he was at his program- he read Shakespeare, philosophy- anything he could get his hands on from the school's library and what he asked us to send.  It was one of his academic teachers at his program who suggested that he apply to elite boarding schools to continue his education.  My son did not complete the EG program. He left to continue his education elsewhere. He didn't miss a beat academically. He is at the top of his class and heading for one of the top universities in the country next year.
Obviously there are many different types of EG programs. In our case it was imperative that the program had strong academics.  It was also imperative that the counseling staff be good.  
Do you not understand that for many families having the kid remain in the home is simply not an option? When the kid is violent and dangerous to himself and others and is truly ruining his or her life, a program is the only chance. Perhaps many of you were placed in bad programs. That does not mean that there are not good ones out there.

[Deborah]

Pre-program my son was an A/B student. Well liked by his teachers and kids of all ages. Came home from the high-dollar EG program five credits behind his peers.

Pre-program he was also a very talented athlete- a natural at soccer and baseball. Usually the top player on the team. No longer plays sports.

Pre-program he loved to play games, a favorite activity in our family. No longer.

Pre-program he had a twinkle in his eye, was playful and had a great sense of humor. No longer. He seems guarded, serious, still largerly acting the role they assigned him.

Pre-program he was very helpful when there was work to be done. No longer. His enthusiasm is deminished. It appears that it's hard for him to feel like he's part of the group. He doesn't speak up and let his voice be heard. Just kinda lethargic, goes along, or splits and does his own thing (isolates). My sense is that there is still a feeling of deprivation he's trying to compensate for, rightfully so. As well as an avoidance of taking risks and at all costs, avoids conflict.

Pre-program he possessed confidence and felt relative safety and ease in the world. No longer. While he appears fine on the surface- has friends and is well liked- I see the insecurity.

Could be that the 'effect' is different with kids who were raised in respectful, democratic homes. He felt like he'd been sent to hell, and in fact, he had been. They whittled him down to just an average kid. My friend, a PhD child psychologist saw him on break and told me to get him out of the program. They were destoying him.

There are moments when I see MY son, and that gives me hope that the programming will eventually wear off.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-08-26 16:14:00, Anonymous wrote:

"There was a full school day at my son's program.  AP courses were offered along with 4 foreign languages. There is documentation on the top colleges the kids who finished high school at the program went on to attend.  Many of the kids at the program felt that the academics were TOO challenging. My son thought they were easy since he had been an A student at a top prep school (until he was kicked out).  He became a strong reader while he was at his program- he read Shakespeare, philosophy- anything he could get his hands on from the school's library and what he asked us to send.  It was one of his academic teachers at his program who suggested that he apply to elite boarding schools to continue his education.  My son did not complete the EG program. He left to continue his education elsewhere. He didn't miss a beat academically. He is at the top of his class and heading for one of the top universities in the country next year.

Obviously there are many different types of EG programs. In our case it was imperative that the program had strong academics.  It was also imperative that the counseling staff be good.  

Do you not understand that for many families having the kid remain in the home is simply not an option? When the kid is violent and dangerous to himself and others and is truly ruining his or her life, a program is the only chance. Perhaps many of you were placed in bad programs. That does not mean that there are not good ones out there.

  "

Again, what program?

[Anonymous]

Wonder if it ever occurred to you that this may be because you are (obviously--given your massive number of posts and their contents) on  your own little crusade against the type of program he was in, as I understand it, against your will. That is, grounded in your own parental justification---and your current parental rage.

Wonder if it is time to step up to the plate and give up the black and white thinking--and talk to him about the bad AND the good of what he has experienced.

So what if he got put into this program against your will---fuck your will or lack of it---maybe it's time to hear about, really hear about all that this experience meant to him, helpful or not, instead (and don't bull shit me, I've got a pretty good idea of the family dynamics here) of requiring and expecting him to be a loyal foot soldier in your own war against therapeutic boarding schools.

The fact is, Deb, whether or not these schools are broadly helpful or not, they do help some kids--anyone who know a reasonable number of graduates from any of them knows this.  

Go on--take a chance, talk to him about the good and the bad of his life at the school he attended---if he can talk without feeling that he is betraying his really injured activist mother, you guys might have a real conversation, you never know!!

[Anonymous]

Wonder if it ever occurred to you that this may be because you are (obviously--given your massive number of posts and their contents) on your own little crusade against the type of program he was in, as I understand it, against your will. That is, grounded in your own parental justification---and your current parental rage.

Wonder if it is time to step up to the plate and give up the black and white thinking--and talk to him about the bad AND the good of what he has experienced.

So what if he got put into this program against your will---fuck your will or lack of it---maybe it's time to hear about, really hear about all that this experience meant to him, helpful or not, instead (and don't bull shit me, I've got a pretty good idea of the family dynamics here) of requiring and expecting him to be a loyal foot soldier in your own war against therapeutic boarding schools.

The fact is, Deb, whether or not these schools are broadly helpful or not, they do help some kids--anyone who know a reasonable number of graduates from any of them knows this.

Go on--take a chance, talk to him about the good and the bad of his life at the school he attended---if he can talk without feeling that he is betraying his really injured activist mother, you guys might have a real conversation, you never know!!


WOW- amazing post, fellow Anon.  So well said. Not much chance Deb will take it to heart, though.

[Anonymous]

The fact is, Deb, whether or not these schools are broadly helpful or not, they do help some kids--anyone who know a reasonable number of graduates from any of them knows this.

Pity the kids who DIED in these programs cannot speak up for themselves.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-08-26 17:12:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

The fact is, Deb, whether or not these schools are broadly helpful or not, they do help some kids--anyone who know a reasonable number of graduates from any of them knows this.

Pity the kids who DIED in these programs cannot speak up for themselves.

"

Wow- great post anon. You really know what you are talking about. It's not like Karen will take it to heart though.

[Anonymous]

Have people died at Hidden Lake?  Isn't that where Deborah's son went?  Have people died at Carlbrook? At Oakley?  Cascade when it was around?

[Anonymous]

On 2005-08-26 17:12:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

The fact is, Deb, whether or not these schools are broadly helpful or not, they do help some kids--anyone who know a reasonable number of graduates from any of them knows this.

Pity the kids who DIED in these programs cannot speak up for themselves.

"

Yup. These people don't care though, that's what is sad. THey'd rather argue semantics than look the beast in the face. They are killing kids.