setup

[dreammagician]

I get the funny feeling we're all being set up, like straight. seeee ya

[anon8237]

Look , Ive been reading the board with  my friend who is part of the survivors group and I cant hold my tongue anymore.

Look you PINHEAD. These people are spending their money, time and risking their lives to bury the people you sit and moan about. They are doing it to help you and to get the rest of the kids out. I live with one of them and they have enough to put Betty in jail, they have enough to go against the State all the way back to 1976, they have enough evidence like you wouldnt believe and they worked their butt off to get it.
they have explained to you , they have told you to call or email wes if you doubt their credibility . Justice is coming.. They have it...
They even have agreed to sit by a computer ALL day to answer any question about affadavits.  So if you care AT ALL about those kids that are sitting in group right now getting abused or thinking about suicide you will at least try to make a difference.
I know Im only a spouse but I have to say this
PUT UP OR SHUT UP cause this team of survivors is risking it all. Then you all want them to give you their names on a public forum like their lives arent already in danger. You want their address too , their kids lives are in danger , they can prove govenrment collusion, they can prove the city of ST. Pete KNEW . They have a claim against the state in all of YOUR NAMES.. ALL SURVIVORS that will be filed ... because of the massive effort THEY put in. They have senators waiting on their report. They have criminal investigations on the board.
So you either want to help or not. They do understand if you cant help because you cant emotionally deal with it. But just to sit here and post with every other excuse is LAME.
Dont hold them responsible for what I posted> Im just a spouse observing from the sidelines . Just had to say how I feel.

[Anonymous]

Look friend, apparently you do not know much about Survivors. You message does not sound like a supporter, but rather the bad cop trying to coerce a confession out of some one.

If people are feeling like this is a setup or they are uncomfortable, attacking them is no way of getting what you want. You may be the friend of a survivor but you have no real understanding, of what they have gone through. Your post make you look like a raving maniac!

As the spouse of a survivor, I can tell you trust is hard to gain, and you my friend seem to be trying to create trust by coercion of sorts.

Would you give personal information to a stranger that could be potentially damaging you or your career, simply by their word or the EXTREME RANTINGS of a friend.

All the evidence in the world couldn't convict OJ Simpson, but you apparently want people to feel comfortable about your evidence and how it is enough to bring them all down. Courts are a crapshoot read the papers!

In short, attacking people for their fears and trepidations is not helping the cause. In fact it just goes one step further into making the 'cause' look like wolf in seep's clothing.

[Anonymous]

I am one of the principles involved behind the scenes.  What we have is real and substantial.  If you want to be involved great.  If you don't I could care less.  We are effecting change with or without you.  If you want to be invloved then do it.  Ginger and Wes will vouch for us.  I don't have the time nor desire to prove myself to you.  However I will prove "OUR" case in court.  We are coming.  They can't stop us.  And it is happening now!  Our time is at hand. :skull:

Enough is enough.

[Anonymous]

Ginger and Wes will vouch for us. I don't have the time nor desire to prove myself to you.

So far from the posts that I have read from you people, that are claiming that there are those out to get you as well as abduct you children and such, I have to wonder way you would want to throw other peoples name out in public while continuously attempting to remain anonymous.

You seem to get agitated when people are questioning who you are and what you are doing, and still you hid behind the names of others who you would put into jeopardy, from what is scaring you the most.

Yes, it does sound dubiously like a setup to me. And as a survivor your self (or supposedly so) I don't understand why you can not accept peoples apprehension to your demands, which are demands not simple requests. You and your "friends" seem to be way to hostile for my tastes, as people that are supposedly trying to do some good.

Stop attempting to put others lives on the line until you put your own on the line and let us know exactly who the fuck you are. I dont want to her the words "talk to _________ they will vouch for us". Tell everyone who you are so we can make our own informed decisions as to who you are and if you are a reliable people to be dealing with in this regard.

[Antigen]

On 2002-12-08 14:35:00, Anonymous wrote: "I am one of the principles involved behind the scenes.  What we have is real and substantial.  If you want to be involved great.  If you don't I could care less.  We are effecting change with or without you.  If you want to be invloved then do it.  Ginger and Wes will vouch for us.  I don't have the time nor desire to prove myself to you.  However I will prove "OUR" case in court.  We are coming.  They can't stop us.  And it is happening now!  Our time is at hand. :skull: Enough is enough. "

Ok, let me clarify a few things. There are only a couple of things I can vouch for.

1. I do know who this person is
   
2. I believe this person is sincere
   

Among the things I can't vouch for

1. Betty Sembler going to jail. I just don't know. The courts have not been kind to us in the past. It's possible, but I wouldn't stake my reputation on it.
   
2. The advisability of any individual filing an affidavit. It's a serious thing to do, calling on force of law to settle a dispute or to right a wrong. It implies some responsibility to follow up, to testify, to engage in any legal battles that might result from your testimony. I can't make that decision for anyone but myself.
   
3. That the personal stories in these requested affidavits will be handled with adiquate security and proper discretion. Define adiquate security and proper discretion.
   
4. That the lives of these good people are in danger as a result of activities relating to exposing the Program and its crimes. Could be, might not be. Might be harrassment. Might be related to other aspects of these folks' private lives (of which I know next to nothing) or could be something else. I just can't say because I just don't know.
   

The bottom line here is that I can only vouch for myself, not for anyone else. I don't know why these folks don't want to put their names to these requests. But, as long as they want to remain anonymous, I'll respect that and not divulge their identities.

The Internet is now safe for free speech.
-- Christopher A. Hansen on the overturning of the Communications Decency Act

[anon8237]

In case you havent read all the post which would be hard to do. We have not said who we are because our lives have been threatned. Our childrens lives have been threatned. Now as for the spouse post you have to understand the frustration . First they live with a survivor which is bad enough and now they are going through all of this , so its tough on the spouses.
As for releasing the names, I cant release other peoples names, that is something they have to choose to do. I can tell you that there are ten of us. I can tell you we are all survivors of either Morgan Yacht or St. Pete or NJ. Releasing our names on this public forum that is watched by dfaf and others is dangerous to us. I find it ironic that you are asking for our names to put us in danger but posting as anonymous. YOur demanding our names but wont post your own. Help me understand this.We want all of you to feel comfortable and secure but because this is a public forum we can only give out so much information. Your concerns about who is this is a legit question which is why we gave wes as a refrence to try and help you all feel comfortable with it without putting ourselves in jepordy. Before you all get all heated and stuff , we are trying to get the stuff done as soon as possiable so we can put our names out there.
I am a bit confused that Wes as a refrence is not good enough for someone who post anonymous. Please explain this to me. So that I may see it from your point of view.

[anon8237]

What we can do to ease some of your concerns is this. If you have doubts. Go to thestraights.com and send the affadavits to Wes .

Now you know exactly where it is going.

[Anonymous]

On 2002-12-08 16:55:00, anon8237 wrote: "In case you havent read all the post which would be hard to do. We have not said who we are because our lives have been threatned. Our childrens lives have been threatned."

Ok, the point is this.... Did you ask Wes, or Ginger if they would vouch for you before hand? Why would you put them in as much jeopardy as you are currently in by posing their name, as well as implying that they are on board with your efforts?

It would seem from Ginger's last post that there is little that she can vouch for, so why would you want to put her on the spot and possibly endanger her family wile you are unwilling to endanger your own? Coupled with the fact that in answer to my first question (after reading Gingers last post here) which I believe to be NO, you did not bother to ask, rather just stick her in the hot seat. I do not believe that I personally, would find you a trustworthy person, or one that I would want to deal with in any situation, as you would put other persons safety at risk in order to further you own advancement in the cause.

As far as my own anonymity, I would not want my own name in this argument to persuade people to think one way or another, so in an anonymous mode I pose this argument to you, which still want to throw out the name of another (only to possibly endanger their or their family's lives) for reference?

[anon8237]

Yes, we did ask them before hand . And they agreed .. So there. that answers that and I have answered your question ten times. I have tried to be patient . I have given you an alternative place to send the affadavit so you will feel comfortable. With a name attached to it. I have done all I can do. I have answered all your concerns. I have tried my best.

[anon8237]

AND for the TENTH TIME MY FAMILY IS IN DANGER . What part of that dont you get. ALL of us have had something happened so WE ARE LAYING IT ON THE LINE YOU HOWEVER, TO SPITE AND ADDRESS WITH A CREDIABLE SEEM ONLY ABLE TO ARGUE NOT SIT DOWN AND WRITE A STATEMENT ABOUT A PROGRAM YOU SAY HURT YOU.

[Anonymous]

On 2002-12-08 17:25:00, anon8237 wrote: "AND for the TENTH TIME MY FAMILY IS IN DANGER ."

I was goin to let it go after you last post, but I can't resist......

I never argued that your family was in danger, nor did I imply that you were lying to any extent. You missed the point of my post entirely, and totally blew a chance to put people at ease by ranting on like a raving lunatic. It does not do your cause well to go on like that.

Good luck in your quest, I can only hope that you do not take the stand in a court of law, as I do not believe that you would be able to control yourself to any civil extent.

[Anonymous]

"I never argued that your family was in danger, nor did I imply that you were lying to any extent."

Actually, you did both, about two posts ago....and then several before that. I dont think you really WANT a credible reassurance from this person.

Send an affidavit to Wes if you trust Wes.  Instruct him to submit it to these people only, with your permission  if he does indeed feel their cause is credible.  Wes isnt going to go handing off your info to ANYONE he doesnt deem worthy or doesnt vouch for.  So there is your solution.  If Wes does not approve, he wont give it to them, and the only permission you will have given would have applied in this instance.  So, worst case scenario...Wes has your affidavit.  I think thats a pretty safe place for it if any.  You cant expect that ANY action on the part of us survivors wouldnt require some level of trust or a leap of faith.  The very idea of telling our stories demands this.  Use your head a little and follow a course of action that will most nearly ensure your safety, if you indeed wish to participate.  Otherwise, just dont submit your information at all.  This could very well be a chance to be heard, finally, and I for one do not feel that I am too good to throw my lot in with the rest and make a stand.  Our fear of exposure cannot be a factor if we decide to take a stand.  It took months, and for some of years of anguish and suffering to get us where we are in respect to this whole mess....dont you think its going to take at least a little more to get us out?

[Carmel]

That last post was from me by the way...I did not intend to post anonymously.

Carmel

[Anonymous]

If I was the opposition this is what I'd do.

1. I would download all these post and have a qualified medical professional go over them.

2. The medical professional, looking at past treatment and current behavior would most likely lean towards a diagnosis of some form of paranoia.

3. I would have the poster of these messages enjoined against any kind of harrassing behavior against myself based on the medical opinion.

4. I would have the FBI, ATF someone investigate these people to see if they own any firearms or such. That is IF I had enough power.

Now, this is not to say that even paranoids don't have enemies, I just find it implausable that persons who could not be hurt by any of this straight stuff would jepordize themselves with criminal activity so long after the fact of the original infraction(s).

I believe a snowball has as mucha chance in hell as we, the group, have of gaining ANY recourse over Mel & Co. The thing about giving a name lending credibility is correct. I, for one, will never believe anyone who will not give his name.

Just my opinions