Hear hear

[Anonymous]

I agree with you all.  I can't believe that this show and others like it can survive.  Don't they know that a few kids out of the hundreds of thousand  throughout the country have died in these programs?  I'd rather the kids have died at home, doing their usual destructive behaviours.  

And while we're at it, there's a great support group  for anyone who wants to join to ban Motor vehicles.  I mean come on, thousands of people die everyday in car accidents, yet these selfish car makers keep brainwashing others to buy these cars, trucks, & suv's.  I would take a bmx bike to work, but a few people got hurt on them too, so I'm supporting a ban on bicycles too.  I had a blister on my foot from some bad shoes (out they go), so I can't walk to work either.  Thankfully I can work at home.  (I hope my eyes hold out, and I'm suing for carpal tunnel syndrome, even though it was my fault)

At anyrate.  Bad parenting is far better than these Wilderness saviour programs anyday.

[Antigen]

I've always wondered what drives people to do things like Iron Man or climbing Mount Everest. Personally, I think it's a horrible waste of time and effort. But it's their time and effort. It's not like anyone is holding a gun to their heads making them endure the grueling conditioning and such. So it's just a curiosity. I can still appreciate the accomplishment and determination, even though I don't entirely understand their choices.

Forcing a kid to do these things against their will is something entirely different. Forcing a kid into wilderness death marches and intimacy w/ strangers is beyond bad parenting! Isn't it obvious? If I foced my own kids to hike 10 miles uphill in a blizzard, I'd rightly lose custody and likely land up in prison for it.

I'm glad some people have that faith. I don't have that faith. If there is a God, a caring God, then we have to figure he's done an extraordinary job of making a very cruel world.
--Dave Matthews, South African rock musician

[Anonymous]

On 2005-07-21 10:55:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I agree with you all.  I can't believe that this show and others like it can survive.  Don't they know that a few kids out of the hundreds of thousand  throughout the country have died in these programs?  I'd rather the kids have died at home, doing their usual destructive behaviours.  



And while we're at it, there's a great support group  for anyone who wants to join to ban Motor vehicles.  I mean come on, thousands of people die everyday in car accidents, yet these selfish car makers keep brainwashing others to buy these cars, trucks, & suv's.  I would take a bmx bike to work, but a few people got hurt on them too, so I'm supporting a ban on bicycles too.  I had a blister on my foot from some bad shoes (out they go), so I can't walk to work either.  Thankfully I can work at home.  (I hope my eyes hold out, and I'm suing for carpal tunnel syndrome, even though it was my fault)



At anyrate.  Bad parenting is far better than these Wilderness saviour programs anyday.  



"

More bad satire. :roll: What is it today with the bad satire? If you are trying to be funny, you need to try a little harder.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-07-21 10:55:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I agree with you all.  I can't believe that this show and others like it can survive.  Don't they know that a few kids out of the hundreds of thousand  throughout the country have died in these programs?  I'd rather the kids have died at home, doing their usual destructive behaviours.  



And while we're at it, there's a great support group  for anyone who wants to join to ban Motor vehicles.  I mean come on, thousands of people die everyday in car accidents, yet these selfish car makers keep brainwashing others to buy these cars, trucks, & suv's.  I would take a bmx bike to work, but a few people got hurt on them too, so I'm supporting a ban on bicycles too.  I had a blister on my foot from some bad shoes (out they go), so I can't walk to work either.  Thankfully I can work at home.  (I hope my eyes hold out, and I'm suing for carpal tunnel syndrome, even though it was my fault)



At anyrate.  Bad parenting is far better than these Wilderness saviour programs anyday.  



"

In most cases, when a "product" is defective, it is recalled.

IMO, wilderness therapy is an inherently defective product.

Doesn't matter if one kid or 100 kids lost their lives "out there in the wild" ...point is they were killed and NOT by an act of Mother Nature, but by human error, willful neglect and gross indifference to even the most basic of safey precautions and procedures.

BRAT CAMP is not a reality show, it is a made-for-tv-wilderness-therapy-camp with real life kids forced to play the role of spoiled, bratty kids under the guise of teaching them respect for God, Family Value and Country.

It's a disgrace.

Barbe
TAUSA
http://www.teenadvocatesusa.org

[Anonymous]

In most cases, when a "product" is defective, it is recalled.

IMO, wilderness therapy is an inherently defective product.

Inherently defective?  NOT! cigarettes, yes.  Therapy (wilderness, et al) No.  

Doesn't matter if one kid or 100 kids lost their lives "out there in the wild" ...point is they were killed and NOT by an act of Mother Nature, but by human error, willful neglect and gross indifference to even the most basic of safey precautions and procedures.

To blindly state that "every" wilderness therapy program is defective due to what you state above is wrong.  I'm not saying that what you point out happens... It probably does, in some cases/places.  But you can't state that all programs are like that.  There are hundreds of thousands of public schools that ARE just like you describe, and you're not joining any fight against them are you?
 

BRAT CAMP is not a reality show, it is a made-for-tv-wilderness-therapy-camp with real life kids forced to play the role of spoiled, bratty kids under the guise of teaching them respect for God, Family Value and Country.

First of all, it IS a reality show.  It's a show that displays real-life events.  It's not game show.  It's not a fictional show.  It's not a sitcom.  It is a Reality Show.  You're wrong to think otherwise.

Second, those kids aren't playing any role - they ARE bratty, spoiled kids.  You're wrong to think otherwise.

Third, you HAVE to force them to do this!  Show me any kid that does drugs, willfully endangers the welfare and safetly of his own family members, has unprotected sex with multiple partners, runs away from home, etc. that WOULD do this program of their own free will. Show me!   You'd be wrong to think otherwise!

It's a disgrace.

 
What's a disgrace is you thinking that these little devils are something they're not, angels.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-07-21 11:32:00, Antigen wrote:
Forcing a kid into wilderness death marches and intimacy w/ strangers is beyond bad parenting! Isn't it obvious? If I foced my own kids to hike 10 miles uphill in a blizzard, I'd rightly lose custody and likely land up in prison for it.

No you wouldn't.  I think you're being a little dramatic.  A 10 mile hike is nothing for kids.  They've got more damn energy that they know what to do with.  I know!  I remember HAVING that energy and now wonder where the heck its gone!  

Intimacy w/ strangers?  Intimacy w/ strangers?  What exactly are you talking about here?  Do you mean to tell me that if a kid opens up to a social worker or a trained therapist... that is bad parenting?  Are you friggin' high?  

Kids nowadays are 'professionals' at hiding all their feelings and their motives for what they do from their OWN parents, let alone strangers.  It is a well known fact, even, that most people are more willing to open up to someone they don't know than to someone they do know.  

Kids that partake of destructive behaviour do-not open their hearts to their families.  They make a point of NOT opening their hearts.

And as far as that "blizzard" is concerned.  That was no blizzard.  Snow fell, okay.  But that doesn't equate to a blizzard.  What they went through was childs play compared to what a blizzard could have been.

[Antigen]

On 2005-07-21 12:25:00, Anonymous wrote:

What's a disgrace is you thinking that these little devils are something they're not, angels.

You don't even know these kids. If they were really the self centered, dangerous animals the producers make them out to be, then Niles is right. At least one of them would have picked up a heavy rock and put those pathetic wannabe hippies out of their missery already.

The nature of psychological compulsion is such that those who act under constraint remain under the impression that they are acting on their own initiative. The victim of mind-manipulation does not know that he is a victim. To him the walls of his prison are invisible, and he believes himself to be free. That he is not free is apparent only to other people. His servitude is strictly objective.




--Brave New World Revisited, Aldous Huxley, 1958

[Antigen]

On 2005-07-21 12:38:00, Anonymous wrote:

ntimacy w/ strangers? Intimacy w/ strangers? What exactly are you talking about here?

No, I'm talking about kids being intentionally stressed and then brow beat into divulging intimate details to a group of strangers; in this case, including a fucking camera crew! How did you come to find out that the girl named Lexi had been molested?

That was SO wrong. And the boy shown breaking down and crying ON NATIONAL TV! Fuck! Have you no heart? Can't you put yourself in these kids' shoes? Or do you view them as something less than fully human? Never mind. Evidently you do.

And, btw, I have taken my kids on a ten mile hike before. Just us and the dog. The weather was fine, we had plenty of water and food and we stopped to rest or play in the crick as often as we wanted. There was no blizzard. I never made them carry 1/3 of their weight on their backs. And, most importantly, the bit that you seem to find entirely incomprehensible they went voluntarily!. Prior to our hike, they had not been kept out on a forced camping/hiking expedition and fed nothing but bland oats and beans for weeks. We had a good breakfast beforehand and a good long night's sleep afterwards, inside, in our beds, safe and sound.

If you can't see the difference, you're fucking delusional or retarded. But I suspect it's something subtlely different. I suspect you're making a tidy living off the industry. Corn pone opinions.

The first human who hurled an insult instead of a stone was the founder of civilization.
--Sigmund Freud

_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
   10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;

[Anonymous]

On 2005-07-21 12:38:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

On 2005-07-21 11:32:00, Antigen wrote:

Forcing a kid into wilderness death marches and intimacy w/ strangers is beyond bad parenting! Isn't it obvious? If I foced my own kids to hike 10 miles uphill in a blizzard, I'd rightly lose custody and likely land up in prison for it.

No you wouldn't.  I think you're being a little dramatic.  A 10 mile hike is nothing for kids.  They've got more damn energy that they know what to do with.  I know!  I remember HAVING that energy and now wonder where the heck its gone!  



Intimacy w/ strangers?  Intimacy w/ strangers?  What exactly are you talking about here?  Do you mean to tell me that if a kid opens up to a social worker or a trained therapist... that is bad parenting?  Are you friggin' high?  



Kids nowadays are 'professionals' at hiding all their feelings and their motives for what they do from their OWN parents, let alone strangers.  It is a well known fact, even, that most people are more willing to open up to someone they don't know than to someone they do know.  



Kids that partake of destructive behaviour do-not open their hearts to their families.  They make a point of NOT opening their hearts.



And as far as that "blizzard" is concerned.  That was no blizzard.  Snow fell, okay.  But that doesn't equate to a blizzard.  What they went through was childs play compared to what a blizzard could have been.  "

Hey Anon- what exactly gets you so worked up over this? It is obviously it is you who continually is posting in favor of BRAT CAMP, it shows in your writing style.

Reality TV never reflects real life, ever. LOL. Do you actually believe that it does?

Most of all, I am very curious why you are so intensely defenseful of these programs. What bothers you so much that a lot of people at fornits believe these programs to be bad. You claim 'we' have no room for middle-ground, well take a look at yourself. Your comments are insane. The molestation comment was over the top. Seems you are in a bad mood again. Are you bipolar by chance? Any medications? Perhaps you missed a dose?

[Anonymous]

The thing about antigen is that even when I think I can find common ground with her---she'll inevitably throw in something really idiotic...and that invariably reminds me that if I'm agreeing with her--I had better double check my thinking cuz she's so often a complete fruit loop.

Here I was...thinking we were on the same page in terms of disapproving of Bratcamp which--bottom line---uses these kids for entertainment.  

I say without reservation I believe that many wilderness programs do a lot of good---for the right kind of kid---but I think it's just wrong to have these kids doing their emotional work in front of a camera for the world to see---doesn't it occur to any of these parents that the media culture, living in the eyes of others, is at least a part of their kids' angst?  

But antigen can't leave it at that---pretty soon she's saying ( afew posts back) that a 10 mile hike in the snow is child abuse and she'd lose her kids to Child Protection if she took them on a hike like that---absolutely foolish hysteria--and on and on ---just like she is about wilderness and therapeutic programs in general.

She just can't leave out the hyperbole and talk rationally about the real situation---which is much more complex than lazy parents, money grubbing camp owners and shamefully misunderstood kids who really have done nothing harmful or wrong.

The woman is an obsessed lunatic, she cares nothing about children or parents, maybe not even her own family for all I know. The driving force in her life seems to be to tear down therapeutic programs---whether or not she knows anything about them---and to bash people who attended or sent kids to said programs and went on to lead happy productive lives.  

This she just cannot either process or tolerate: her black and white thinking about these programs simply cannot allow her to consider subtleties such as differences among kids or differences among programs which, to a more astute observer, might easily explain the different opinions held on this matter.

A completely hopeless woman----absolutely hopeless

[BuzzKill]

//Third, you HAVE to force them to do this! Show me any kid that does drugs, willfully endangers the welfare and safetly of his own family members, has unprotected sex with multiple partners, runs away from home, etc. that WOULD do this program of their own free will. Show me! You'd be wrong to think otherwise!//

Wrong again.

Outward Bound's Accent, operates entirely on willing participants.

The teen must be willing to attend and is given all the pertinent info before hand - the rules, the conditions, the activities, and so on.

They must have a complete physical and in some cases have a referral or recommendation from a therapist that they are mentally fit for the challenge.

There is no need for forced confession or intimacy with strangers, as this is not the goal.

The whole idea is to teach the kids they are capable of accomplishing things they would not have considered possible - and the hope that they will then transfer this knowledge about themselves to other aspects of their lives.

They do not berate or humiliate the participants. If a kid is falling behind they do not call them names or insist they are malingering or manipulating.

They strive to foster team work as well as individual decision making skills.
They don't strive to create stress and frustration - but rather a calm self assurance. Its all about you can do it, and have fun while you do it, and we'll teach you how.

Sadly, it is the success of this model that has bloomed into all these wanna be programs that really do not understand why and how Outward Bound's accent program "works". They are dangerous imitations of the real thing - somewhat like bootleg liquor.

While they will take a kid experimenting with drugs - they can't take some heavy users - b/c they can't have them de-toxing on corse. They can't take kids with serious conduct disorders - b/c they would be a danger to themselves and others in the wilderness. They don't try and pretend they can help everybody - and consequently for those they do accept they really can help.

http://www.outwardboundwilderness.org/t ... scent.html

Ascent courses are for 14 - 17 year old boys and girls who struggle with:
Poor school performance
Anger management
Defiance
Low motivation
Risky behaviors such as experimenting with drugs or alcohol, sneaking out, or truancy.
We?ve designed this course not for serous juvenile offenders, but to be an early intervention for teens who may have started down a self-destructive path, but who have not yet burned any vital bridges.

We cannot accept kids who:

Are chronic runaways or drug users
Have a history of suicide attempts
Have a pattern of violent behavior
Are not stable due to a diagnosed mood disorder or a recently prescribed medication
We fully understand that your teen may not be highly motivated to come here. We do, however, require that they agree to participate and follow our rules. For tips and suggestions on how to present this opportunity to your child, or to find out more about what's in it for you as parents or guardians, call one of our Admission Advisors at 800 328 2943.

[Anonymous]

quote by our anonymous wilderness friend

Poor Lexie. Molested. Who wasn't? Get over it and move on

Another quote.

absolutely foolish hysteria--and on and on

Yeah, no kidding.

[Anonymous]

I like nothing more than a program supporter who gets all ruffled up. They resulted to insults, geesh, that entire post is one big insult at the person who makes this debate possible! What an idiot. Thanks for showing your true colors, not that you hadn't already... but now it's painfully obvious for anyone who cares to stop by.

[Deborah]

***And as far as that "blizzard" is concerned. That was no blizzard. Snow fell, okay. But that doesn't equate to a blizzard. What they went through was childs play compared to what a blizzard could have been.

The narrator stated that they decided to hike them in snow to 'push their buttons' and get them to 'take responsibility'.
Later the narrator interjected that the snow storm had turned into a blizzard and with temperatures dropping fast it was 'essential to make it to camp before night'.

A lie? Drama? Why might he have refered to it that way?

I also noticed they left in the girl's comment, 'hurry up man, there are people dying out here.' More exciting?

[Anonymous]

The proof is in the pudding.  

Kids have been hiked to their death in one of these so-called "Brat Camps".

That's the "reality" and the legacy of the wilderness therapy industry.  The dirty little secret nobody wants to talk about.  Including the ed cons and parent owned and operated referral services who make a living sending kids out "into the wild".

The industry should be UNIFORMLY regulated, not held together by state-by-state rules and regulations made up by lawmakers who listened to the owners and operators of these programs, not their victims.

Barbe
TAUSA