Unusually Resistant Kids, Or Softer Program

[Anonymous]

Dr. Huffine can suck my asshole.

 :wave:

[dougm]

Here, I finally registered...

Background: I found this forum trying to find other alum of Sagewalk while I was there. No such luck yet.

No, I'm not professional on any other grounds other than the fact that I actually attended the program. It's hilarious but also unnerving to see some of the posts on this site. Referring to the program as "child abuse" is utterly ridiculous. These children are abusing themselves by engaging in dangerous behaviors. By intervening, these parents, whether they are bad parents or not, are doing the right thing in helping their child. While I will vouch for SageWalk on this forum, there are some things I disapprove of, such as exploitation on BratCamp as an example. Now I will take back my comment on calling most of the people on this forum "idiots" but the references to Chairman Mao and Dr. Huffine "sucking your asshole" or whatever was said is uncalled for. I will try to keep my objections civil from now on.

Doug

[Anonymous]

On 2005-07-24 13:49:00, dougm wrote:

"Dr. Huffine "sucking your asshole"

:wave:

[Antigen]

Thanks for registering, Doug. But how do you know anything about any of these kids? None of them have stood trial or anything. They're there for one reason and one reason only; because their parents wrote the check.


Are the parents ever wrong? How about the staff? Are the staff omnicient and always right?

That's where I have a real problem w/ these programs and the people who run them. They would no more consider that the kids are innocent or that their own assessments may be flawed than they would entertain the notion that a kid like Aron Bacon was not faking illness.

Yes, Sagewalk employed Aaron Bacon's murderer, Eric Henry during a 9 month diversion agreement following Bacon's death. He was supposed to refrain from involvement in similar programs for pay. He left, when found-out and went on to Obsidian Trails where another death occured.
http://www.contac.org/contaclibrary/tragedy28.htm
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... art=0#5214

Mark Wardle, who was responsible for the death of Ian August at Skyline Journey, was also employed by Sage Walk.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#63079

Wardle also worked at Brown School's 'On Track' where Charles Moody was killed.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... art=0#5214

As far as Walking Eagle goes, I don't care how kind or decent he may be to some individuals or even if he likes dogs, horses and cute little bunnies. He associates himself with child abusers and, thereby, tars himself.

What is a committee?  A group of the unwilling, picked from the unfit, to do the unnecessary.    
-- Richard Harkness, The New York Times, 1960

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[Anonymous]

It's a tragedy that Aaron Bacon and others have died in these programs, but from what I read in the links you provided, the sources seem rather shady and sensationalist. You need to take into account that there is a mortality rate involved. Several kids have died in camps, but given the amount of kids that have gone through these programs, there is an assumed risk (especially with problematic children) that something may go wrong. I'd like to know what Aaron Bacon actually died of, since there was no mention of an autopsy in the article and one would've definitely been performed in this case. More than likely, Aaron had some sort of disorder/disability/etc, unknown to anybody, that caused him to stop breathing while being restrained. While I don't know exactly the circumstances that led him to Obsidian Trails, he could've easily had the same sort of physical restraint placed against him if he had resisted an arrest (not out of the question for kids placed in these programs).  

As for the question of morals and omniscience...no one is completely innocent in any case. There are no perfect parents, there are no perfect children and there are no perfect therapists, etc. But does that excuse the child immediately upon those grounds? Definitely not. I don't want to sound too much like a parrot for wilderness therapy programs, they're definitely not for every problem child, and wilderness therapy was actually probably not for me (I had undiagnosed diabetes when I was sent to Sagewalk, program did not do much for me.) But I was witness to how things are run and I saw several kids that went there, including involuntaries, really take advantage of the opportunity and straighten themselves out. I'd love to continue typing but I need to go drop my cousin off at his baseball game.

Doug

[Anonymous]

On 2005-07-24 15:06:00, Anonymous wrote:

"It's a tragedy that Aaron Bacon and others have died in these programs, but from what I read in the links you provided, the sources seem rather shady and sensationalist. You need to take into account that there is a mortality rate involved. Several kids have died in camps, but given the amount of kids that have gone through these programs, there is an assumed risk (especially with problematic children) that something may go wrong. I'd like to know what Aaron Bacon actually died of, since there was no mention of an autopsy in the article and one would've definitely been performed in this case. More than likely, Aaron had some sort of disorder/disability/etc, unknown to anybody, that caused him to stop breathing while being restrained. While I don't know exactly the circumstances that led him to Obsidian Trails, he could've easily had the same sort of physical restraint placed against him if he had resisted an arrest (not out of the question for kids placed in these programs).  



As for the question of morals and omniscience...no one is completely innocent in any case. There are no perfect parents, there are no perfect children and there are no perfect therapists, etc. But does that excuse the child immediately upon those grounds? Definitely not. I don't want to sound too much like a parrot for wilderness therapy programs, they're definitely not for every problem child, and wilderness therapy was actually probably not for me (I had undiagnosed diabetes when I was sent to Sagewalk, program did not do much for me.) But I was witness to how things are run and I saw several kids that went there, including involuntaries, really take advantage of the opportunity and straighten themselves out. I'd love to continue typing but I need to go drop my cousin off at his baseball game.



Doug"

Hello Doug,

This is not drama.  This is reality:

Eddie Lee died at Obsidian Trials. Of an injury so severe, experts claimed that had it happened in front of the hospital where he was taken, he still would not have survived.

Here's an extensive report:

http://www.teenadvocatesusa.org/opedarchives.html

Aaron Bacon died at North Star Expeditions, run by Jagger and Henry (formerly associated with the infamouse Steve Cartisano/Challenger.

Aaron died a horrific, agonizing death. Competent medical attention would have saved his life.  Instead he was ridiculed and made to suffer the worst kind of abuse imaginable for 30 days. He died in the back seat of a truck.  All alone, while his counselors talked and made fun of "the faker".

Disgusting and downright criminal behavior, if you ask me. IMO, justice was NOT served in this case, or any other case where a child died in the "name of therapy".

http://www.teenadvocatesusa.org/foreveryoung.html

See LOVING THEM TO DEATH by Jon Krakauer.

http://web.outsideonline.com/magazine/1 ... _deth.html

Barbe
TAUSA

[Anonymous]

Doug ...

Why don't you try flying the "acceptable loss" excuse over at 63 days dot com?

I'm sure Ali and Jen would be glad to explain to you why that excuse is not acceptable to them (or any other kid) who survived one of these survival-style wilderness camps.

http://www.63days.com

Barbe
TAUSA

[Antigen]

On 2005-07-24 15:06:00, Anonymous wrote:

More than likely, Aaron had some sort of disorder/disability/etc, unknown to anybody, that caused him to stop breathing while being restrained.

That's exactly the problem. These sadistic, self deluded sons of bitches "knew" this kid was faking for a full month until he died. Same as you "know" the kids on Brat Camp are horrible kids who deserve what they get. Same as you "know" everybody who claims to have been abused by these people are making it all up, even the dead ones.

Speculations on the Origin of Human Intelligence: "In defense of the Pygmies, perhaps I should note that a friend of mine who has spent time with them says that for such activities as the patient stalking and hunting of mammals and fish they prepare themselves through marijuana intoxication, which helps to make the long waits, boring to anyone further evolved than a Komodo dragon, at least moderately tolerable. Ganja is, he says, their only cultivated crop. It would be wryly interesting if in human history the cultivation  of marijuana led generally to the invention of agriculture, and thereby to civilization.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0345346297/103-2574067-9409467/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'>Carl Sagan - The Dragons of Eden - 1977

[Anonymous]

On 2005-07-24 15:40:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Doug ...



Why don't you try flying the "acceptable loss" excuse over at 63 days dot com?



I'm sure Ali and Jen would be glad to explain to you why that excuse is not acceptable to them (or any other kid) who survived one of these survival-style wilderness camps.



http://www.63days.com



Barbe

TAUSA"

Sorry if it came off that way, I didn't mean to belittle his death at all. But you must understand, with the amount of emotional drama involved with being displaced from your usual surroundings, there is a lot of "faking" and it is damned near impossible for any counselor to be able to tell the difference. I know first hand, I engaged in such "faking" such as throwing up and what have you. I just don't see the point in making these counselors out to be "murderers", many of these people who do this are former "punks and badasses" themselves, and hold a honest concern for the welfare of children.

[YuckFou]

On 2005-07-24 15:54:00, Anonymous wrote:

" many of these people who do this are former "punks and badasses" themselves, and hold a honest concern for the welfare of children."

This is one of the biggest problems with the industry.

[Anonymous]

Doug,
Consider yourself warned. You will not be well received here, if that matters, if you don't attempt to educate yourself on the topic of discussion slightly before commenting. You have confused all the information you read.

Shady and Sensationalist?
Read the details of Bacon's 'treatment' in this court document:
http://courtlink.utcourts.gov/opinions/ ... r12_98.htm

Not shady or sensationalist. Sickening and heart breaking to anyone with a heart. And no, he did not have a disorder or disability. Would it matter if he did? They are supposed to have a thorough exams by their own doc and the programs doc and be cleared for the rigorous demands of the program. Apparently the need to fill a spot sometimes takes precedent over accurately describing the rigors. Doc thinks kid is going to summer camp. Yippeee. A little hiking with adequate water, calories, rest, protection from the elements. Right.

Most of the regulars here are familiar with the 'window of loss' excuse for the 40+ deaths due to medical neglect, inappropriate restraint, accidents, and general ignorance and lack of care. We don't buy it.

Can you name any other 'therapy' in which the risk of death is accepted or tolerated? Particularly any 'therapy' for teens.

Do you really believe that the only way to 'save' these kids is to put them in harm's way?

Caneing, flogging, stocks, whips/chains, are highly effective too, but...?

And when you're done reading about Bacon's unnecessary and sadistic murder, you can read about Ian August's:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=30#55721

There are many more, if you're interested in educating yourself. Then you can start on the stories of those killed in RTCs and boot camps. Total for all three 101. And my list may not be complete. It appears that programs are being more successful at keeping accidents and deaths out of the media. You could spend a month here reading up on all the sick, perverted, and sadistic things that have happened to kids in wilderness, boot camps, and RTCs; under the guise of 'therapy'.

[Deborah]

That was me.
Also Anon,
How might you feel if you'd been throwing up because you had a serious medical problem that was ignored? Perhaps, dead.
Do you have a problem with erring on the side of caution? If so, WHY?

[dougm]

Okay, I read the court thing, and I will be honest, I was appalled. The setup hasn't changed with sleeping bags, tarps, clothes, food etc. but never once when I was at Sagewalk were we forced to eat stuff other than what was issued to us, and we didn't consume anything "natural" other than steeping some leaves we found and making tea (wasn't great in retrospect, but it was quite a welcome treat at the time) nor were we made to wade in water  (what the hell were the counselors thinking???). I need to say that Sagewalk is much different and in no way did I ever experience any of the abuse that he did. However, I still stand by my conviction that wilderness therapy can be quite beneficial for most kids.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-07-24 16:51:00, dougm wrote:

"Okay, I read the court thing, and I will be honest, I was appalled. The setup hasn't changed with sleeping bags, tarps, clothes, food etc. but never once when I was at Sagewalk were we forced to eat stuff other than what was issued to us, and we didn't consume anything "natural" other than steeping some leaves we found and making tea (wasn't great in retrospect, but it was quite a welcome treat at the time) nor were we made to wade in water  (what the hell were the counselors thinking???). I need to say that Sagewalk is much different and in no way did I ever experience any of the abuse that he did. However, I still stand by my conviction that wilderness therapy can be quite beneficial for most kids."

Here's a novel idea. Send the parents to a wilderness therapy camp and put them through the exact same regimen ... only instead of reading letters written by their bratty kids, they would be the ones writing letters to their children apologizing for being lousy parents and begging them for their forgiveness.

I can see it now ... the kids coming to pick up their new and improved parents ... riding off into the sunset singing Kumbaya.

 :silly:

[dougm]

On 2005-07-24 16:32:00, Deborah wrote:

"

That was me.

Also Anon,

How might you feel if you'd been throwing up because you had a serious medical problem that was ignored? Perhaps, dead.

Do you have a problem with erring on the side of caution? If so, WHY?"

You must understand that erring on the side of caution could be very easily abused. Counselors will definitely address health issues with students who are known not to be problematic. I was sick about 6 weeks into my program, and at first the counselors didn't believe me since I was fairly problematic up until then, but I kept trying to do my daily things (I was throwing up fairly often and had moderate body pain) and I wasn't suggesting that I should go home or such, so eventually the counselors believed me and gave me extra rest (I was allowed to lie in my sleeping bag at the campfire).