If they only knew....

[Anonymous]

To the ANON poster - I am stating my personal knowledge.  Dependent on WWASPS?  That's even funnier. Sure I'm stating my knowledge.  You can agree or disagree.  That's your choice, right?

Are you dependent on your stand?  Does it have anything to do with being on a forum where everyone basically agrees with you?  

I wasn't saying that FORNITS is a cult in reality.  If you could see past the statement, it means that everything that you guys say could brainwash a parent into not getting help if they actually believed your stories.  And, to make it clear that it's not just WWASPS.  It is all the programs that are getting slammed here.  Same stuff/accusations, different programs.  

PHX

[Anonymous]

:wstupid:  :wstupid:

Thanks for discrediting yourself so nicely for us all. You truly are a piece of work.


Why do you think I post here? Parents SHOULD know everything that goes on at these programs.

You are a typical WWASPie, nothing new. You think it's us who are 'brainwashing', thanks for showing your true colors. :tup:

[Anonymous]

On 2005-07-11 18:52:00, BuzzKill wrote:

"The dam seminars - OK - if they are all to the good of those who are able to 'step outside their box' - let me ask you - why is it that the persons in attendance are allowed so little time to eat or sleep or get alone for even a few minutes and think?  Why are married couples seperated for certain "exercises"? Why must people be berated and humiliated?



If its not a cult - then why are men and women told to divorce unsupportive spouses - unsupportive of the program, mind you. Why are people encouraged to cut off contact with family members who ask "unsupportive" questions about the program?



I think I know - but I would like to know what you think PX"

Nothing you are saying makes any sense, Buzzkill.  You have quite an imagination. Did you read this stuff somewhere? How can I answer something that can't be answered because it's a figment of your imagination? You think you know?  Of course you do.

PHX  :wink:

[Anonymous]

Must be nice, living in your own private reality. Eh, PHX?

Get real, you are so full of shit you can't even recognize truth and fiction anymore.  :roll:

[Antigen]

On 2005-07-11 18:44:00, Anonymous wrote:

So, what's the connection between an organization of many people and Jim Jones?

Just like Jim Jones People's Temple (or Synanon or Scientology or the Moonies, etc.) WWASP (originally David Gilcreac) promise the impossible in exchange for suspended disbelief and total faith in "the process". The beauty part? They never have to actually deliver. When the mark fails at attaining this promised enlightened state (as all people do) why you just blame it on failure to properly work the program.

And, just like Jim Jones, WWASP (and many other outfits involved in this fucked up industry) set up locations in third world countries. Why is that? Same reasons, I supect; because their practices are not legal or tolerated here in America--not even in Utah.

And, just like the 900+ people who killed themselves upon Jones' command at Jonestown, WWASP followers often act directly against their own best interest upon command.

If you ask the Government for the right to assemble you deserve to be told no .
 

--Jim Lesczynski, Manhattan LP chair, on "unorganized" gathering @ Central Park

_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
   10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;

[Anonymous]

What I learned about the WWASPS seminars is there a lot of fucked up parents who actually believe getting in to touch with their magical child is some kind of miracle.

Crying, sobbing, beating their fists on the floor, gasping for air, you name it I have heard about it.

Why the histrionics?  Because the facilitators are damn good at impairing one's critical thinking skills.

They actually train for this crap.

Personally?  I say let the parents go to the seminars and pay lots of money to find their god damned magical child.

Just leave the children out of this crap and let them be a kid ... not some grotesque version of an adult magical child.

 :smokin:

[Anonymous]

Antigen -  

What do you mean by promise the impossible?

PHX

[BuzzKill]

PHX - Yeah I read it somewhere - the seminair rules leaflet and the BBS.

[Antigen]

Hey BK, you care to answer PH for me? What did they promise you?

Drug War tells us everyone's body is common property
to be managed by the central government for our own
good, even if it kills us.  This is Communism!
Drug Policy Foundation of Texas

--Bob Ramsey

[BuzzKill]

To sum it up, I was promised that Discovery was a life changing experience.
The thing was/is - I didn't want my life changed. I was/am happy with it the way it is.
What I found alarming was that this was not an acceptable state of mind in the program.
It was argued that my son wouldn't have a drug problem if I weren't somehow to blame; therefore - I obviously needed to overcome my faults, and inadequacies and preconceived notions and most especially the idea that I was "right" about anything - b/c ya know, there is no right or wrong.
I was promised that Discovery would free me of all that was holding me back in life. It would improve my marriage and/or make me more successful at work. It would enable me to more effectively communicate with my son as well as other people. All this was oft explained by the many seminar veterans on the BBS as well as the Teen Help lady who sold me the program.
A Life changing experience, was how it was described, over and over - as if life changing is always a good thing.
I was never happy with the idea of the seminars - but it was after enrolling and getting the rules that I really became alarmed. I became something of a problem on the BBS with questions not unlike the ones I posted here for PHX. I had a suspicion that there was something sinister about it all - it sounded a lot like a brain washing session.
Going back to the 1980's, I had heard James Dobson lament the common use of LGAT seminars by various corporations. He was encouraging people to resist and refuse to attend; and explained that they were cult-like and based on brain washing tactics - that they could be dangerous to a person's mental health, and these corporations had no right to pressure their employees to attend.
From reading the rules, and from the bits and pieces attendees let slip on the BBS, I became aware that these program seminars were much, if not exactly, the same as what Dobson had warned against.
Now that I understand the connection to Lifespring  -I know they are in fact the very same.
No doubt, it is for many people Life Changing. Change is not always good. There are common accounts of Lives ruined. Families broken and life long estrangements resulting.
I now view the seminars as the key to the whole scam. Its how they control the parents and keep them co-operating with wildly ridiculous program rules and procedures. Its how they make and maintain the legions of faithful, all stridently proclaiming the program saved their family. Even when the child has not done so well - even to the point of suicide - they will Still proclaim the program's saving grace. But most of those so loudly insisting the saving power of the program and the seminars, still have kids enrolled - often haven't yet spoken to them - So - something is wrong with this picture. These people are not thinking clearly. And I say - that is the whole point.

[Antigen]

Thanks, but I meant the initial sales pitch. What did they offer you to make you think it was worth the money and other commitments involved in shipping your son to them?

Sometimes I lie awake at night, and I ask, "Where have I gone wrong?"  Then a voice says to me, "This is going to take more than one night."
-- Charlie Brown, _Peanuts_ [Charles Schulz]

[Dolphin]

Buzzkill - That was a really long story.

They promised you it would be life-changing. Was it or wasn't it, or did you even go?

That's not promising the impossible from where I sit.

Good question from PHX, Antigen.  What have they promised that is impossible?

[Dolphin]

On 2005-07-12 13:42:00, Antigen wrote:

"Thanks, but I meant the initial sales pitch. What did they offer you to make you think it was worth the money and other commitments involved in shipping your son to them?

I don't remember hearing any promises.  I did hear we would get out of it what we put into it and there were no guarantees.

[Anonymous]

There are also no accidents... right? also, did you find your magical child?  :roll:

[Nihilanthic]

Ugh, the bitch is back. Now, Im going to PRETEND Dolphin will understand what I say, for the purposes of anyone reading this thread.

Dolphin, we're accusing the seminars of altering the sate of mind of everyone attending, being manipulative of everyone attending, especially behind their decisions regarding themselves, their families, and their kids in the programs.

We're also accusing them of causing damage by pervading the lives of the people who get sucked into them too deeply. We're accusing them of using emotional and psychologically traumatic methods (or processes) to unsettle their minds and cause a psychological regression to make them more sensitive to suggestion, which is colloquially known as brainwashing.

We're also accusing them of being even MORE traumatic for the children TRAPPED in them becasue of the program they are in, and the coersion or physical force applied to them to make them 'work the program' and to attend and participate in the seminars.

Our claims are backed up by those who went through them, and by people who have Dr. infront of their names, PHDs from big universities, and experience as psychologists and psychiatrists who have studied and/or attended them and called them basically pathological brainwashing.

What you brought up does not rebut ANYTHING that we said. The only thing youre talking about is if its life changing or not, or if you 'got out what you put into it. You cant apply the "life-changing" arguement to something that amounts to torture or brainwashing. Sure, it does change the life of the person who went through it, but thats basically irrelevant to the issue we make with it.

Psychological regression and imparing someones ability to think critically because of the mental state put upon them is what our problem is with the seminars, Dolphin. All of what youre saying is irrelevant to it. Stop avoiding what our problems with it are.

You say there is but one way to worship the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it?
--Chief Red Jacket, Seneca Indian Chieftain