Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform > Mission Mountain School

REUNION!!!!

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Anonymous:
"Am I better, and stronger for having gone to MMS"
Does 'for having gone' mean 'b/c of'  like you actually found it helpful and learned something that supercedes that which you disagree with or do you mean simply that 'whatever doesn't kill u makes you stronger' - eg. being molested make me stronger in long run I grow up and... I don't know... in dealing with the horrors of humanity (in processing my pain) I can face molesters all over the world without fear (being facisious, but you catch my drift.  Being stronger b/c you victimized and can battle it, so to speak.

I guess I do feel like I'm that latter msyelf, I wouldn't advocate for MMS (the MMS i expereinced)in any way more that I would being molested.  I find both to have been violations of my person.
 
"Would I be the person I am today with out having gone through that experinece,.. gone through a time in my life that changed everything ......"
OF course not, no one would- you are your narrative.  Without your past you aren't 'you'.  That's why I say no one can be nuetral- if only in the sense that they did not leave MMS 'nuetralized'.  MMS very much was about impact- that's what they do, that's what these programs are all about.  The question remains, the jury is still out- although many PhD's who have studied the topic are already convinced, that these do not have long-lasting effects- their rate of success is quite low.  I suppose you can then see it as a speed bump on the road toward destruction- like anyone on that path, some can change the habits of socialization and time, other may not.

"Would I know how to deal with life not having learned the lessons at MMS-"

For me, MMS made understanding the complexities of life much tougher.  In retrospect, this greatly was b/c of the lack of education I received- I'm strong advocate for education and think that B you underestimate it's importance.  Without education you're powerless in this society, if you're not ruthless.  Forget about the 'therapy', it left me so completely a fragmented self than perhaps may have already been at that time, I can't even imagine giving credit to MMS for my ability to educate my own self on how to deal with the world and make my own way.  If I had not grown from the place MMS squarely placed me- had I not taken apart bit by bit all the fallacies of that school's rhetoric I would have surely died.  It wasn't just MMS rhetoric I had to take apart, it was years of my parents as well, but MMS destroyed what little self I had created at the time- an act of destruction they were not equipped to handle, forget about the ethics of it.  Not sure where I see dignity and respect in that destruction- as NATSAP claims to hold their schools accountable to.



"Do I support the school and their mission to Help girls in need....."  

GOD NO, damn i'd have to be...insane.

"Lets remember....our PARENTS sought out MMS....MMS didn't come to our homes, or call our parents and say PLEASE send your daughter to our school, we really really want to deal with her shit.....
did they???"
What does this matter, exactly?  What if you're parents are equally as abusive as they school? Or have NO IDEA what was really going on?  
Did we not all get the point after the first week of being there that telling your parents anything bad about the school would get you left there much longer and more interventions, forget about that fact that your parents likely wouldn't believe you anyway b/c MMS told us that regularly.  I wanted so badly to speak out, but knew my parent wouldn't believe me- besides I wanted their love and came to believe that maybe MMS was the solution- I couldn't come up with anything else.  I went to MMS willingly- I wanted to get better.  They, to say the least, did not help me get better.    
Fearing consequences and fearing the people who give out the 'consequences'/punishment/behvarior-modifier is a difference you point out--- I think that the two are inextricably tied.  Who has the power in the realtioship here?   It's like saying you fear being murdered but don't fear the murderer?  Kids weren't/aren't morons, they see the source of the 'consequence'  even if they don't entriely understand the rules (like what exactly was required, if not the truth, when he was telling you you're full of shit b/c his 'inuition' tells him so).  John used to love to claim he was intutive- like that truely has any real validity other than perhaps the purpose of further making him this 'awe' inspiring person with great abilities to read kids.  (give me a break- sick!sick! sick!)

"I even saw parents come and pull their daughters out. So there wasn't much force on the shcools part..."

I would've liked to have that parent for a day... force- no, no one held gun- the MMS militia stayed out of sight, j/k  Mis-representation, yes.  coercion, yes.  forceful force, no. but coercion is force, implicit force- again, these are the nuances that need to be considered above taking MMS at it's face- they have their bases well covered, but truth still truth.

"really when parents are to commin to pull girls, or the girls are leaving....what can they do???"

Nothing, but they work hard to set it up so this is unlikely.  Remember, anything bad about the school was manipulative and you were relagated to work crew...hmmm.. I'd say that it serves as a slight deterent, no?  Forget about the impact words have on a kid, when you drop them off with strangers, make them excerisize like never before,
strip them away of any physical indicators of their identity and connections with friends and  tell them they have serious problems, need to be here and deserve everything they have coming to, explaing to them they are liars and manipulators (while this may be true, doesn't make it exclusively true)- day in and day out, I would say eventually even the strongest would submit to the mantra of rhetoric.  And, while it defies logic to think that most of as were in fact addicts (far out of control- rather that kids with probelms) this became almost exclusively true- battery continued until we all began to chirp to the same tune. It became an 'underground' worthy of serious labor cost if we did not chirp the same tune. 'Actually, I do need to be here and have a million addictions and was in fact severaly abused by --?  and had sex b/c i needed love and...'  That's not to say that non of these things were true nor to deny that many of us lied and could be manipulative, but it's the B.S. that this somehow justifies not having access to our parents or that  this makes it ok to shatter a persons identity and, with unskilled, unqualified workers, (pardon for this) fuck with their heads about addictions, about abuse, about who they are...The more I ponder on just what it means to be a person, an individual, the more I feel so strongly about this point.  MMS did not have the right to violate our thoughts and bodies simply b/c our parents said it was ok.  They still have no real idea what went on there.  What an intense mind-fuck it is.
The labor we did for the school,  the thoughts we had to share, the intense atmosphere of fear and oversimplified po-dunk 'therapy'-- which went like this--- verbalize (by coercion) that which causing you pain (abuse, some abuse you caused, pains of addiction) 'process it' and you're in the clear.  And that was really it...the atmosphere of fear, constant threat of labor looming over head, I still don't see how any this is truely conducive to learning and growing and-- guess, the way I see truly dealing with shit is not just by way of  spilling the beans, but in forming close bonds of trust (fear implies danger- I see trust not a part of fear- not in the personal bonding sense) and revealing your shit while reaching the place cognitively to appreaciate what your revealing, it's implications, and being around loved ones where mutual love and reciprocity exist.  I just think John's role as this paternal figure was really creepy in lot of ways and seemed really antiquated- or really contemporary- guess depending on where you live.  Even down to the level of parenting, i don't think you can achieve any real connection with your kid without respect, love and trust.  I think fear as in intimidation and extreme forced labor has no place in parenthood.  I wonder if anyone would disagre with that here?  
Is this issue a fundamental issue about ways in which is acceptable to treat kids?

My thoughts are kids should be resepcted, heard and not shut down and built back up on a whim b/c they are behaving in ways that are found to be inappropraite.  
I know that things would have been quite different if I had an oppurtunity to speak to someone with much more sense about kids and the struggles of kids that John or Mike, without a doubt.  I thing schools like MMS can be helpful, but many of them are a cop out- especially they are a cop out in terms of way they are run.  It's much easier to run a school irresponsibly and as if kids just need a shock to their system and a couple of long days of crying and revealing in great detail their life's problems to become the well adjusted kids that the parents wanr and MMS promise to deliver.   I think it takes  a lot more than that simple equation for most- many are dealing with issues far beyond Johns capability or that John's 'therapuetic model' can/should cover.  (Let us not forget- John- MA in ecology)   Meanwhile, kids who are not just futsing around being foolish- those who have mental health issues are entirely neglected in this process and parents mislead into thinking this may help-- and instead they kill themselves years later, or whatever the case may be.  MMS not equipped to help them, and yet...

That's why I'm for the bill- let's get people on these institutions.  Quick fixes come at a heavy price, and not just from parents pocket either.  I would love it if CPS did suprise visits on these schools- can u imagine, John would be pissed!- and if the visit regularly, lol-  finally these places may be held publicly accountable for what they promote.  At least filter out the kids who have the potential to become 'the disgruntled ones' that can post all over the internet and 'bash' them- like Zoe had mentioned, we are a disgrunted few.  Didn't everyone know, MMS success rate is in the 90% range.  LOL- guess they define success as doing well despite them, in addition to doing well b/c of and let us not forget those who, sadly have not lived to tell their story one way or the other- are they the 10%?

Anonymous:
Too many words no real meaning..i dont feel like reading or listening.

Being molested made me stronger...what a dumb ass way of saying it...let me got out there and get molested some more. Then I will greatly strong. What a joke. You make no sense.

you see how I write? Only a few words. I don't try to explain myself. Maybe you should try again.

If you are put in a place isolated..anywhere, you are bound to change. MMS is not GOD, but sure pretends to be like it.

Anonymous:
i agree- it's like saying corporal punishment at MMS, despite the pain it caused us, was a good thing if only for that fact that (like being molested) it turns us into 'survivors' and we are better people for it.

I used to think girls who bought into MMS were just dumb, now I think they are just damaged goods in some funadamental way.  You can't not have AT LEAST, mixed feelings.  The place was/is ABUSIVE.  FEAR and TORMENT is ABUSE.  ISOLATION and being stipped of your identity for YEARS is ABUSE.  Being called manipulative & a liar until you believe only MMS staff b/c you don't know any better is ABUSE.  Being forced to excersize all the time with is ABUSE. Being provided with little little valuable education is ABUSE. Not being allowed to think for yourself is ABUSE.   Doing psuedo-therapy some guy with a master in ECOLOGY is ABUSE.

THis is the problem with these private insitutions, they can do all this far from public scrutiny. They have a air of authority- which, if anyone knows about that study done linked here:

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedi ... experiment
 
you should know people are really easily swayed by people they view as legitimate sources of authority- all you have to do is pretend you know what your talking about- like John Mercer- and you may even believe it.  That doesn't make it so, but sure as hell can convince people otherwise.

regardless, right and wrong, abuse and non-abuse methods exist and it's why we are given languae- to communicate out pain and our pleasure- is it not really that simple.  So the girls that say MMS is bad make a good point.  Even if other girsl felt they needed it, had it coming, deserved it, should have been there, needed to be there and don't think any other method would have helped, there are those of us who feel there are methods that are NOT ABUSIVE that could have worked well better for us, and I highly doubt they wouldn't have been just as helpful for all of you.  

Internalize and forget if you must, but I can't help feel sick to my stomach when I hear from relatives of student who tell me how there kid has regressed into this weird child like state that MMS puts you in.  You go back to this state that is so damn weird and unhealthy it's freaky- yet acceptable.  Sex is weird there- it's weird afterwards b/c you just don't know how to deal.  I don't really know I single person who did not, after they left, 1 have serious sex problems 2. go back or pick up booze/drugs 3. feel freaked out they could barely cope with life 4. depression also seems quite common.

But we wouldn't know what's going on in it's entirety, now do we? b/c MMS doesn't track it's alumni- only maybe the few who are their chosen success stories- but obviously that paints a false picture... it's not in their best interest to keep tabs, that's assured, most want to just forget that time in their lives, they are 'nuetral' well, rather, have mixed feelings.  I suspect a much greater number found the place abusive- but 2 years and a lot of investment in viewing it otherwise seems to win and create a battle from within.

Anonymous:
Hey there,
Yes you make a good point. I do have mixed feelings of MMS, if you actually took the time to read my post you would know that by now. I  don't however agree with the comparison of MMS and being molested....???
I do find it intersting...that everyone seems to pick out John Mercer as the one who was the most demading..and the most "mean" of the 5 founding staff. Were they not all in agreement?? did they not have Monday meetings every week?? Did they not ALL decide to carry out decisions they made in monday meeting.
Yes the school has changed and maybe im just sick cause I stayed literally 3 yrs at MMS. Maybe my life is F****D.
I personally don't, didn't and never will have a messed up sex life...Im sorry but I don't think of MMS when im in the middle of an intimate moment with my boyfriend. After the first time I had, had sex,...maybe, stories I had heard from others at my time at MMS did pop in my mind after but soon and very quickly went away.
The only negitive thing I have from MMS really is me eating...and body image. Its quiet a shame cause it wasn't an issue till after MMS. And exercising is at best hard for me. Even though it was something i loved and I now do exercise simple cause it helps me and my number one issue ANGER....exercising calms me down.
Anyways im babbling,
Booze and drugs never was and never will be an issue. I do drink yes...and... does that mean it has to be a problem? NO...you simply make it a problem. I truly beleive in our own self boundries, morals and so forth. Listen the that guide inside that say yes, no, or to much.
Maybe I look at the world and life to simply, to make things a bigger issues than they are. Or maybe like everyone keeps saying....my life is just screwed since I support the helping of troubled girls.
B

katfish:
Hey Besty!

what's you AIM username so we can chat?? Mine's katfish1178

Anyway, you know, that's interesting point to make about body image.  Was anyone there when Jessica, an MMS alumnus, who never had any real body issues returned to MMS for a visit completely imaciated.  Truely I had never seen anything so sad in my life nor had I ever seen someone so skinny.  IT was really sad.

As for me, I think I had normal body issues like any woman/ girl goes through in our society where the pressure to be thin is freaken incredible.  Nothing entirely abnormal.  Eating issues yes, but the focus at MMS made them worse I think.  Like now, sometimes I'll eat for emotional reasons, but I find that more so when I'm not being productive and keeping myself busy.

Yea, JOhn was not the only one- but John makes policy there, her holds the reigns.  I hold the rest fully accountable as well- but not really the young staff who I feel didn't really know any better or who are sick (power hungry) in their own right- or like Donna- dang, what was up with the perfect chores- she'd call us back for every little insignificant thing that- tons of work crew cause of that lady.

B, truly I am suprised you were there 3 years, I think my brain would have turned into MMS mush.  It sounds like you not only have mixed feelings but are torn about the staff- on the one hand seeing them for who that have been vs. who they are to you now. I'd be really curious to hear where you stand 5 or 10 years from now when there has been more distance b/w u and the school and you have completely come into your own- your still quite young, aren't you??  I'm 26, by the way.  Old soul.
I fully support helping trouble teens, the problem is finding facilities that engage in ethical practice that have been studied and the results documented.  Some girls may benefit from MMS, who knows- that's the problem.  Additionally, who knows how truly harmful MMS is- they can say what they want, and girls like me may give examples and state otherwise, but without studies it's an absolute unknown in many way.  From what I've read these methods, according to PhD's, are far more harmful than beneficial.  That's not to say that's exclusively so, adn there are so many variables to consider, but likewhat was said above, without regulation and public scrutiny how do we know?  I work with kids, I think kids- especially poor kids- but kids all around get the short end of the stick in our society that protects big business over kids rights- eg. places like MMS.  They really try to sell quick fixes to a systematic problem that's not going to disappear b/c you toss your 'brat' into a daily excersize regimine and have them rehash painful shit to an unqualified or sadistic couneslor. And don't get me started on the kids in foster care that I work with...these kids hardly have a chance to make it in the world.

For kids who have been traumatized, I would say that extreme discipline is absurd- why try and shatter someone's entire identity like MMS does- I am certain that's not the only way to get through to a kids- certainly it lacks creativity and patience- it's very much the easy way out, I think.  Why make them do all the work for your FOR PROFIT school? Why work them and excersize them repeatedly 'till the point of exhaustion?  It's in the name of therapy, but i would love to read what the A.P.A. would have to say about that?  It counters reason.  It's very medievil, i think.  Very backwards...very Montana?  Utah?

People say extreme times call for extreme measures- perhaps, but seems more like a hysterical response than anything else.  Programs like MMS can be helpful I think, but not the way MMS runs them- it's extreme to send your kid away for a wake up call and I think often necessary, but it's an entirely different story when you send your child into the hands of some asshole (John or Mike- occasionally Colleen or Deb) to straighten you out.  Sometimes I wonder if John does this b/c he couldn't find anything else that would bring in the big bucks.  I also wonder how many guys like john are out there doing the same thing- seems to be the calling of the sadistic in a lot of ways- as someone wrote about that new show 'Brat Camp'.  There is defintely a sadistic element to these schools, and I don't think a single person can tell me that John, Mike, Deb or Colleen did not find pleasure in the power they held. It's like a government, you need checks and balnaces- "absolute power corrupts absolutely" - John, a peon in the grand scheme of things, holds a great deal of power over a few little girls and it goes unchecked.  Former staff have called him a tyrant- I know of one that most of you know who said that...I will find great pleasure in his downfall- maybe I'm the sadist now.  Or maybe I just want somevindication.
[ This Message was edited by: katfish on 2005-07-24 19:01 ]

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