Kids in Program Credible?

[Shadyacres]

One of the most notorious abusive programs, Straight Inc., never had any shortage of glowing reviews from parents and their brainwashed kids; http://survivingstraightinc.com/StPeter ... sement.pdf .  I think, in light of this, positive program testimonials should be read with suspicion.

But businesses should not discontinue asking people for testimonials because of one place.  Some places will reflect accurately what the business out put is while others will not.  We need to all understand that the businesses are putting their best foot forward and they will never post the negative responses.  But we can always look at fornits for the negative feedback. Looking at all the data gives us all a balanced view of the industry.

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Not really, we have no monetary motive, unlike the programs.  We really have nothing to gain by posting our opinions here, except for the hope that we may prevent this from happening to one more kid.  The programs, on the other hand, have MILLIONS of dollars at stake.  Their corporate survival requires a benign public image.

[Whooter]

One of the most notorious abusive programs, Straight Inc., never had any shortage of glowing reviews from parents and their brainwashed kids; http://survivingstraightinc.com/StPeter ... sement.pdf .  I think, in light of this, positive program testimonials should be read with suspicion.

But businesses should not discontinue asking people for testimonials because of one place.  Some places will reflect accurately what the business out put is while others will not.  We need to all understand that the businesses are putting their best foot forward and they will never post the negative responses.  But we can always look at fornits for the negative feedback. Looking at all the data gives us all a balanced view of the industry.

...

Not really, we have no monetary motive, unlike the programs.  We really have nothing to gain by posting our opinions here, except for the hope that we may prevent this from happening to one more kid.  The programs, on the other hand, have MILLIONS of dollars at stake.  Their corporate survival requires a benign public image.

But we should not ignore the opinions because they make money.  We cant just stop listening to any information that comes from industries which make a profit.  99% of the worlds information would stop being used.  Maybe the company receives 10 bad references to every good one and only posts the good ones.  At least it is information.  We may not know the percentages.  The same with survivor stories here on fornits, we are not guaranteed to get the whole story.  If a child was abused or is still pissed off that he was sent to a program then he may withhold any positive experience he had and only write about the negative experiences to try to make the program look worse than it was.

So I think it is important to look at all aspects and all the information available and just be sensitive to the source of the information whether it be a business who is profiting or a child who did well or a child who did not do well.



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[Shadyacres]

One of the most notorious abusive programs, Straight Inc., never had any shortage of glowing reviews from parents and their brainwashed kids; http://survivingstraightinc.com/StPeter ... sement.pdf .  I think, in light of this, positive program testimonials should be read with suspicion.

But businesses should not discontinue asking people for testimonials because of one place.  Some places will reflect accurately what the business out put is while others will not.  We need to all understand that the businesses are putting their best foot forward and they will never post the negative responses.  But we can always look at fornits for the negative feedback. Looking at all the data gives us all a balanced view of the industry.

...

Not really, we have no monetary motive, unlike the programs.  We really have nothing to gain by posting our opinions here, except for the hope that we may prevent this from happening to one more kid.  The programs, on the other hand, have MILLIONS of dollars at stake.  Their corporate survival requires a benign public image.

But we should not ignore the opinions because they make money.  We cant just stop listening to any information that comes from industries which make a profit.  99% of the worlds information would stop being used.  Maybe the company receives 10 bad references to every good one and only posts the good ones.  At least it is information.  We may not know the percentages.  The same with survivor stories here on fornits, we are not guaranteed to get the whole story.  If a child was abused or is still pissed off that he was sent to a program then he may withhold any positive experience he had and only write about the negative experiences to try to make the program look worse than it was.

So I think it is important to look at all aspects and all the information available and just be sensitive to the source of the information whether it be a business who is profiting or a child who did well or a child who did not do well.

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Hah, as you say, I certainly did not "do well" being isolated from my family and friends, being removed from school and harassed and harangued non-stop for months by brainwashed cult imbeciles.  I did not "do well" sitting on a wooden church pew for 12 or 14 hours a day, every day ( except Sunday, which was only 8 hours ), forced to "sit up straight and face forward" the whole time.  I did not "do well" with some jackass holding my beltloop while I was trying to piss, EVERY DAY for 5 months.  The programs, on the other hand, did quite well by spreading their ill gotten loot around to like minded policy makers and other authorities, staying in business long after they should have been shut down for institutionalized abuse.  They also have the money to hire unethical psychologists to act as propagandists for their inhumane and experimental "treatment".

[Froderik]

The reason there are more graduates on anti-program sites is that they saw more.  Most graduates faked their way through the program because they realized they had no other way out.  When you've been lying to your parents for years, who are they going to believe?  You or the "responsible adults" holding you captive?  And when the captors have a $5000/month incentive to keep you, to what lengths will they go to keep you?

Especially when they already know you wont be believed.  You become the perfect victim, and your parents the perfect marks.

(Don't know what's been touched on in this thread, but I'll add my .02 just in case.) In Straight Inc, they knew what they were doing, and they set it up to have no one believe you. They pretty much accomplished this by keeping the cover going inside, and out: On the inside, there was the all-important rule known as "CONFIDENTIALITY." What you see here, hear here, and do here remains here. Better not talk about anything or use any names about anything that went on within those white walls, or else! On the outside, they usually managed to convince parents not to trust their own kids by telling them in advance that claims of abuse were tantamount to the kid trying to manipulate their way out of the program.

Also, on a side note, debating with Whooter is a lot like being Brer Rabbit having a discussion with the "Tar Baby." The more you try and reason with Whooter, the more deep into a pile of bullshit you seem to sink. It never ends, it just keeps going, and going, and going...

[Whooter]

Hah, as you say, I certainly did not "do well" being isolated from my family and friends, being removed from school and harassed and harangued non-stop for months by brainwashed cult imbeciles.  I did not "do well" sitting on a wooden church pew for 12 or 14 hours a day, every day ( except Sunday, which was only 8 hours ), forced to "sit up straight and face forward" the whole time.  I did not "do well" with some jackass holding my beltloop while I was trying to piss, EVERY DAY for 5 months.  The programs, on the other hand, did quite well by spreading their ill gotten loot around to like minded policy makers and other authorities, staying in business long after they should have been shut down for institutionalized abuse.  They also have the money to hire unethical psychologists to act as propagandists for their inhumane and experimental "treatment".

Shady, that is a great example of a fornits regular who “Did not do well”.  There are not any positive aspects at all, just negative.  If we spoke to a person “who did well” in a program then we would hear things like how they enjoyed the rafting trips and they learned to enjoy reading and met some great people.  They may talk about how bad the food was and the lack of diverse clothing and a staff member who wasn’t nice to them, some of the other kids dropped out or ran off,  but overall the program helped them get past a bad patch in their life.  The program would publish the best of the letters which didn’t have any negative parts in it about the program itself.

1.If we only looked at fornits we would believe that all kids had to sit on church pews for 18 hours a day, will be abused and "will not do well".

2.If we only looked at the kids feed back who did well we would believe that “most of the kids will do well” will have a good experience and would struggle through their time there somewhat.

3.If we only looked at the programs feedback we would believe that “all kids do well” and get set on the right path.

So as we can see it is important not to rely on any one source but rather look at feedback from all sides of the issue and then put it all together for a realistic balanced view of the industry.



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[Shadyacres]

Hah, as you say, I certainly did not "do well" being isolated from my family and friends, being removed from school and harassed and harangued non-stop for months by brainwashed cult imbeciles.  I did not "do well" sitting on a wooden church pew for 12 or 14 hours a day, every day ( except Sunday, which was only 8 hours ), forced to "sit up straight and face forward" the whole time.  I did not "do well" with some jackass holding my beltloop while I was trying to piss, EVERY DAY for 5 months.  The programs, on the other hand, did quite well by spreading their ill gotten loot around to like minded policy makers and other authorities, staying in business long after they should have been shut down for institutionalized abuse.  They also have the money to hire unethical psychologists to act as propagandists for their inhumane and experimental "treatment".

Shady, that is a great example of a fornits regular who “Did not do well”.  There are not any positive aspects at all, just negative.  If we spoke to a person “who did well” in a program then we would hear things like how they enjoyed the rafting trips and they learned to enjoy reading and met some great people.  They may talk about how bad the food was and the lack of diverse clothing and a staff member who wasn’t nice to them, some of the other kids dropped out or ran off,  but overall the program helped them get past a bad patch in their life.  The program would publish the best of the letters which didn’t have any negative parts in it about the program itself.

1.If we only looked at fornits we would believe that all kids had to sit on church pews for 18 hours a day, will be abused and "will not do well".

2.If we only looked at the kids feed back who did well we would believe that “most of the kids will do well” will have a good experience and would struggle through their time there somewhat.

3.If we only looked at the programs feedback we would believe that “all kids do well” and get set on the right path.

So as we can see it is important not to rely on any one source but rather look at feedback from all sides of the issue and then put it all together for a realistic balanced view of the industry.

...

If I opened a treatment center where I would have Dick Cheney shoot all of the kids in the face with a shotgun, some of the kids would heal better and faster than others.   Some would actually feel that they had been assaulted ( really! ).  Some would accept that they “probably did something to bring this on themselves”.  Some might even tell you it was a valuable growth experience, especially if Dick is standing there with his shotgun.  We can hire snake oil salesmen to indoctrinate parents into the enormous benefits and spiritual rewards of shooting your kids in the face with a shotgun.  Of course this is blatantly unethical but who cares, think of all that money!  You want in?

[Shadyacres]

The reason there are more graduates on anti-program sites is that they saw more.  Most graduates faked their way through the program because they realized they had no other way out.  When you've been lying to your parents for years, who are they going to believe?  You or the "responsible adults" holding you captive?  And when the captors have a $5000/month incentive to keep you, to what lengths will they go to keep you?

Especially when they already know you wont be believed.  You become the perfect victim, and your parents the perfect marks.

(Don't know what's been touched on in this thread, but I'll add my .02 just in case.) In Straight Inc, they knew what they were doing, and they set it up to have no one believe you. They pretty much accomplished this by keeping the cover going inside, and out: On the inside, there was the all-important rule known as "CONFIDENTIALITY." What you see here, hear here, and do here remains here. Better not talk about anything or use any names about anything that went on within those white walls, or else! On the outside, they usually managed to convince parents not to trust their own kids by telling them in advance that claims of abuse were tantamount to the kid trying to manipulate their way out of the program.

Also, on a side note, debating with Whooter is a lot like being Brer Rabbit having a discussion with the "Tar Baby." The more you try and reason with Whooter, the more deep into a pile of bullshit you seem to sink. It never ends, it just keeps going, and going, and going...

[/i][/b]


Yeah, I know, but I need to practice civil discourse with people who turn my stomach.  It is a "goal" in my "moral inventory".

[Whooter]

If I opened a treatment center where I would have Dick Cheney shoot all of the kids in the face with a shotgun, some of the kids would heal better and faster than others.   Some would actually feel that they had been assaulted ( really! ).  Some would accept that they “probably did something to bring this on themselves”.  Some might even tell you it was a valuable growth experience, especially if Dick is standing there with his shotgun.  We can hire snake oil salesmen to indoctrinate parents into the enormous benefits and spiritual rewards of shooting your kids in the face with a shotgun.  Of course this is blatantly unethical but who cares, think of all that money!  You want in?

You democrats are all alike, always bringing ethics into it to challenge the profit margin.  As long as income exceeds expenses and everyone walks away happy at the end of the day then we can call it successful.
I would be worried about the profit margin, though, Shady.  I think if we could have the parents provide the shot gun and shells, have them pull their own permits in their kids names then we would not have to worry about the rising cost of ammunition and avoid having to spend good money on training our personnel and getting them licensed.  My experience is that every-time we train an employee they expect a raise.  Plus "State fire arm training" fills their heads with unnecessary safety precautions that just slows down the process and costs more money.

Dick Cheney would demand too high a salary but we could hire locals and have their names legally changed to Dick Cheney so that we could ethically advertise that Dick Cheney was part of the therapy on our brochures.

I like your thinking, Shady, but from experience I think we should hire someone and put them in charge of ethics but set him up off site somewhere so he wont interfere too much.  That way we wont be bothered struggling with constant ethics questions during our daily updates and decision making meetings.

Ethics test for you shady:

Lets say you and I were partners and you were going through one of the kids backpacks upon intake and you came across a $10,000 Rolex watch.  Would you tell me or would you keep it for yourself and not tell me about it?



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[Froderik]

[seamus]

Not while in the program, cause the whole "confidential " thing gets a lot of milage ,depending on who's using it.Used by the local monkeyfarm, its ultimately just a "divide and conquer" device,and besides the kids are all just "making it up" in order to "manipulate" the parents into withdrawing them . Right?   Then you got yer genuine Kool-Aid drinkers.....they aint credible either...untill the "Shine" wears off that is....till they really think about it .....and realize what a load of crap theyve swallowed,and at last......voila....the truth comes out.

  Speaking of "credible" why is it that someone who has NEVER sat on front row,never been belt-looped, and has no form of first hand knowledge, has anything in the same ballpark as credibility here? That is a seriously UN-qualified opinion. Like a blind man tryin to tell ya what blue is...... :nods:

[Whooter]

Not while in the program, cause the whole "confidential " thing gets a lot of milage ,depending on who's using it.Used by the local monkeyfarm, its ultimately just a "divide and conquer" device,and besides the kids are all just "making it up" in order to "manipulate" the parents into withdrawing them . Right?   Then you got yer genuine Kool-Aid drinkers.....they aint credible either...untill the "Shine" wears off that is....till they really think about it .....and realize what a load of crap theyve swallowed,and at last......voila....the truth comes out.

If you dont think that teenagers do not manipulate then you have never raised one.  Try talking to a motivated kid who wants to meet their friends at the mall and their goal is to try to get you to give them your car keys lol.  We have all been there.  Many of the kids who were/are sent to programs have trust issues and is one of the reasons for their downfall, so add that to the fact that kids dont want to be in the program doing the hard work it is not a far stretch to think they will say anything to get themselves taken out of there.


 

Speaking of "credible" why is it that someone who has NEVER sat on front row,never been belt-looped, and has no form of first hand knowledge, has anything in the same ballpark as credibility here? That is a seriously UN-qualified opinion. Like a blind man tryin to tell ya what blue is...... :nods:

If we can sit here and tolerate listening to posters here give there advice and input when they have never raised an at risk teen, placed a child in a program or owned a program, been a staff in a program, had a friend die in a program, had a friend do extremely well in a program then we can tolerate just about anyone, becuase everyone seems to be an expert here on just about every aspect of the TTI.



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[Froderik]

 Speaking of "credible" why is it that someone who has NEVER sat on front row,never been belt-looped, and has no form of first hand knowledge, has anything in the same ballpark as credibility here? That is a seriously UN-qualified opinion. Like a blind man tryin to tell ya what blue is...... :nods:

 :notworthy:  :tup:  :rocker:  :beat:  :timeout:  :soapbox:  :spam:  :sue:  :roflmao:

[mark babitz]

I think programs work for some but not all, a person has to be strong minded and willed to make it in a program, and unfortunately many are not, and it's just over looked. Every one doesn't make it threw Boot Camp in the Military and thats ok,but at least the Gov throws them out right away for the most part.. But programs being Money motivated don't care and find pleasure I think in trampling the weaker folks of the world, and really causing them damage and problems for life.

Some people in life let everything roll off their back, and some hold onto it forever. It is no more complicated than that.Even the weak find strength,and they should be heard,thats how they can become strong and overcome their fears and haunts in life from the programs an find some understanding.There is a message in everyones words,Thats why there are open forums to talk and discuss,

I don't see it that way at all.  Believing that the person you are has value, and not wanting zealots to crush that person out of you, does not make you weak.  On the contrary, I was strong willed and strong minded enough to split as soon as they moved me to phase 2.  You think that you just "let it roll off your back" and I am just "holding onto it".  From where I'm standing, you just roll over and accept your role as victim, while I am still trying to tell anyone who will listen what kind of people run these places and what their real methods are so hopefully they will not do this to their children.  And "weak", in the group setting, just means that you are different from the automatons that make up the group.

I am sorry if my description offended you, Perhaps read my post again,,I dont condemn anyone for bring up their past or complaining about parts of it. I am the King of Complaints about my childhood and programs,in the past. Elan did not do me any good, just reinforced the negative beliefs, I already had.I turn out pretty well, but not without allot of obstacles.But I credit nothing to programs, I was just in with other ass-holes like me at the time. I changed and so did some others,but some still are the same.

And life goes on,And as strong minded and willed as I am, I will never forget my days at Elan in Maine,Your right Shadyarces, somethings never go away,. We just try and grow from them,and be better than our past.And never give up, :cheers:  :cheers:  :rocker:  :rocker:  :peace:  :peace:

[maruska]

Even Holocaust survivors who suffered one of the greatest losses retell their stories with recounts of friendships made, guards who were kind to the children etc.

Are you serious?  :flame:

If you ever get a chance to visit Washington DC take some time out to visit the Holocaust Museum.  Just walk thru the museum and read and listen, really listen.  Listen to the words of the survivors and the tails of their experiences the loved ones the lose and the hardship they endured.  You will not find one of them ever saying that all Germans are evil etc.  They speak about the occurrences naturally.  Life still occurs even under the most horrible circumstances.
If you read the survivors stories here on fornits many lack the natural details of life (they have been stripped from the readers view).  Even someone who has never heard of programs before would never believe that every staff person is evil and abusive, yet that is how the stories are formulated here.  Many try to lead the readers to believe that they never met a good friend, enjoyed a certain meal, learned to enjoy writing during their time their, connected with a staff member, enjoyed snow for the first time etc.  Many of the stories lack credibility because of this.

If I was raped by my teacher at school and beaten I would be justified as saying I did not have a very good experience in highschool.  But if I went onto a web site and started writing my story explaining how every teacher is a rapist and I never met one friend in highschool, the food was horrible, everychild was raped, I never learned to read or write, I learned science but I dont credit the teachers for that, I eventually went to college but I dont credit the highschool for that, I did it in spite of them.  My story didnt include one positive aspect of my time in highschool then the whole story sinks and loses credibility.  I think many here on fornits spend so much energy trying to paint the industry as evil as possible that they forget to tell the whole story.



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I don´t need to go to any museum to learn about  holocaust.  
I wish I would not know so much about it.


I hope all parents looking for information will learn through this what kind of person you are, Whooter, because your argumentation is telling.

[Whooter]

I don´t need to go to any museum to learn about  holocaust.  

You are too young to have experienced it first hand so you must be one of those people who wants to forget history and view museums as a waste of money.

I wish I would not know so much about it.

There are those people like yourself who wish they didnt know so much about the TTI.  But unlike yourself I think it is important to continue to educate people and bring them the facts about places whether it be a program in Utah or a Wilderness program in South Carolina.

I hope all parents looking for information will learn through this what kind of person you are, Whooter, because your argumentation is telling.

Thank you, Maruska, I think everyone can agree that I am open minded and sometime rely on the past to give me road signs for the future.  Whereas you like to just close your mind and pretend you know everything.



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