Author Topic: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run (Read 189864 times)

psy · « **Reply #120 on:** January 29, 2009, 01:53:22 AM »

Oh, I could pick it apart piece by piece and comment on it, but one of the most telling things for me was this comment:

"Maybe it is not possible to form your own identity or a real picture of yourself unless you also get the picture of what you look like to the world. Well, that is a new assumption. In psychoanalysis that assumption isn't made. What you look like to other people isn't taken into account."

Maslow assumes that people don't already have a "real" picture of themselves, and that the group can tell you who you are. This thinking is prevalent throught the full gamut of programs. How many times did I hear "You don't know who you really are. You're just wearing a mask". It gives an excuse to attack a person's self concept (and values) and replace them with those of the group.

"you people will be the graduates who will be running places like this somewhere else in the future"

Sadly, this was accurate.

There is a revolution going on. There are some spots which are more growing points than others; but they are all growing in the same Eupsychian direction, that is in the direction of more fully human people. This is going on in education as well. I think that it would be possible, if we got together and pooled all the experiences, bad and good, that we could all pool together, to take the skin off the whole damn educational system. But we could also rebuild it. Well, this is explosive because it demands a human reality, human needs, and human development, rather than a sort of traditional heritage from a thousand years ago which is outdated.

And this is the human potential movement in a nutshell. that's a section of the passage to reflect on.

What he said was that "I place upon my patients the fullest load of anxiety that they can bear." Do you realize what that implies? As much as they can take, that is what he is going to dish out, because the more he can dish out, the faster the whole thing will move.

Maslow seems to interpret any change as progress. That's certainly not always the case. People attacked will break down and conform to the group. This can be psychologically scarring in the long run, as people learn they can only see "themselves" through the eyes of others (among other ways). I'm sure many in program felt they lost their sense of self. Is this self discovery? No. It's the dissolution of the self.

SEKTO · « **Reply #121 on:** January 29, 2009, 09:27:10 PM »

In addition to O'Brien's book, I in the last couple of months have also read Help At Any Cost as well as So Fair A House.

So Fair a House, now that's an interesting book.

I read it as a window into a long-gone place and time when people in general were much more naive and trusting than we are today.

Dederich even says straight out in it (I'll find the citation later) in the transcript of Casriel's recorded interview, that he was trying to build a cult around himself and that he deliberately surrounded himself with a "bunch of dummies" who would do whatever he wanted, and then placed them on the newly-incorporated Synanon's Board of Directors. That's right, he called the first Board of Directors a bunch of dummies.

So not a lot of good fruit has come from the the figurative tree that Dederich planted, to put in mildly.

He was a grade-A nut, an involutional narcissist, emulator of L. Ron H. and in general a deluded pseudo-messianic madman.

It's amazing to me that he built such a following for so many years.

To me, an interesting man to study however.

I mean, though he was very intelligent, he wasn't even particularly charismatic; by all accounts he was a gruff, belligerent, loudmouthed and physically disfigured control freak.

Have you ever seen the documentary film TC Pioneers, psy?

And now for my evening constitutional. More later.

Anonymous · « **Reply #122 on:** February 01, 2009, 09:05:15 PM »

What is next? Who cares about what someone said 40 years ago. Get a life and get off those damn meds.

Anonymous · « **Reply #123 on:** February 02, 2009, 12:47:10 AM »

Quote from: "SEKTO"

Two things about DAYTOP I remember quite well:

First, I'll tell of a Jewish lesbian "counselor" (DAYTOP grad from NYC and unqualified armchair psychologist) and self-described "diesel dyke" (that is not a homophobic comment from me, that's actually how she described herself to us) who we had there that I'll call "Marcia." I used to dread going into the encounter groups that Marcia would run, as she was especially confrontational and vicious in her approach, to the point of being sadistic about it. She'd encourage us to scream at and verbally abuse one another. She'd make fun of me relentlessly, telling me how phony and plastic and shallow that she thought I was. She'd encourage the others to pitch in and tell me how weak I was too. I remember when I made it to "coordinator" (the top of the DAYTOP chain of command) and she was teaching me how to conduct "haircuts" she'd tell me I that I was "too soft" with my counseling approach and encourage me to yell at people with the intent to shame and humiliate them. She, in effect, was teaching me how to verbally abuse my peers. She once humiliated me in front of the entire "DAYTOP family" in morning meeting by making me dance around in a silly fashion while everybody laughed at me. And all in the name of helping me to "overcome my issues."

The second thing that I remember really well was the periodic visits by The Monsignor, and how we'd all have to meet together and he'd pat us all on the head, one by one, like little kids or pets or something. He'd never walk up and shake your hand like a grown-up, he'd pat you on the head like you were a cute four-year-old. I always found that to be weird and inappropriate.

They'd verbally abuse and humiliate us, a bunch of teenagers, and teach us to do the same to one another. Incredible.

If there are any good things I remember about DAYTOP they'd be: the fact that I made friends for life there; two of my best friends are DAYTOP grads and they're doing well, we used to party like mad but they are sober now with wives and kids and good jobs. Also, at least in DAYTOP they taught me how to identify, get in touch with, and appropriately deal with my feelings. It was genuinely therapeutic and beneficial in some respects. So it wasn't all bad, just mostly bad, and the residual effects of all that verbal abuse and degradation and groupthink indoctrination remain with me and negatively impacts my psyche to this day. It took me fifteen years or so to figure out that DAYTOP, the "drug treatment program" was a front for an abusive Catholic cult group. It blows my mind.

Can I tell you anything about DAYTOP in those days? Any questions or comments?

feel free to name the abusive counselor by name. Don't be discourgaged by the trolls- that's what they're trying to do to you. I enjoy your writing very much.
thank you

Anonymous · « **Reply #124 on:** February 02, 2009, 04:06:55 PM »

The Truth will set you free.

SEKTO · « **Reply #125 on:** February 02, 2009, 05:32:26 PM »

Quote

feel free to name the abusive counselor by name. Don't be discourgaged by the trolls- that's what they're trying to do to you. I enjoy your writing very much.
thank you

Thank you for the positive feedback.

Input like this keeps me motivated and is very encouraging.

Stay Irie.

Anonymous · « **Reply #126 on:** February 03, 2009, 12:46:47 AM »

Quote from: "SEKTO"

After deliberating with myself over this, I have decided to disclose these people's names.

DAYTOP outpatient started out in Richardson TX; I first went there in March of '92. Then they gradually moved the operation to the Dresser building, near downtown Dallas, beginning in spring/summer of '93 and into early '94. I graduated in approximately August of '93, and DAYTOP left TX entirely in approximately '96.

So here they are, all of them. These are the staff who were working at DAYTOP when I was there:

I'd love it if some of you floated these names around and tried to see what can be come up with on these people. Especially Marcy.

First is Ruben SILVERIO (maybe SYLVERIO, I cannot remember the proper spelling). A Puerto Rican DAYTOP grad from NYC.

Next, Marcy LANGSTEIN (pronounced Lang-STEEN) this is the one whom I refer to as "Marcia;" she was a totally bullying, confrontational "diesel dyke." Again, I am not making fun of her; that's how she described herself to us at the time. I remember her as a kd lang loving, folk-music playing, flannel and cargo-pants wearing, pickup truck driving type. She is also a DAYTOP grad from NYC; I think that she was a grad from the Queens outpatient facility.

If what I was told about her is true, then Marcy indirectly killed Mike GOMEZ through her abuse and negligence, IMO.

Mike GOMEZ was the kid I told of, whom Marcy (going against his parents' wishes) told that he was adopted, according to my sources. This led to Mike becoming very disturbed and running away, eventually getting killed while driving drunk. The kid had FASD, and was learning-disabled. We all treated Mike very poorly, and I regret that. He was the guy who was made to walk around with the pacifier.

The DAYTOP directors' names back in my time were these:

When I first got there in March of '92, the director's name was Mike GORMAN. He was a chain-smoking ex-jazzbo from NYC who claimed to have played the drums in Billie Holiday's band. He chain smoked filterless Pall Malls, spoke in this raspy voice, and he's the one the always went around with that "When you think you're looking good you're looking bad, and when you think you're looking bad, you're looking good" crap. He'd been to prison and had a small teardrop tattoo near one of his eyes, I cannot remember which one. Mike Gorman graduated from DAYTOP way back in the '60s and had worked for their organization for a long time. He's been dead for over ten years. He was pretty old when I knew him, and I heard that he died in Florida at his daughter's house. He died in '93. I am pretty sure that Mike Gorman had been part of Synanon back in the day, too.

The next director after Mike was a guy named Eddie CINISOMO. He was a DAYTOP grad from NYC too and would always tell us that we were just statistics to him. I don't know how or why he got removed from the directorship, but he did. He is dead now too, from some kind of natural causes, but I know no details of his death or the circumstances of it. His wife worked for DAYTOP too, as an administrator, but I do not remember her first name.

After Eddie was M******* another Puerto Rican, ex-heroin addict. I am not mentioning here name here to protect her privacy in case she is still alive. She started out as a counselor in DAYTOP and eventually got promoted to director of our outpatient facility. She was (according to my sources) HIV positive but none of us knew it at the time, and I heard that she is dead now too. She's the one that went to work for Dallas' Phoenix House facility after DAYTOP was shut down in TX. She eventually died (or so I heard) from an AIDS related disease.

So all three of the directors at our outpatient facility are dead now. I do not know for sure, 100% about M*******, but feel that it is likely that she is indeed dead. She's not mentioned as part of Phoenix House's Dallas facility anymore.

Also on the staff as counselors were Greg THOMAS and Leroy BREWSTER. These two were these two huge black dudes that used to be football players. A kid named Mike told me, swore up and down, that he and another kid named Jerry once smoked a joint with Leroy on DAYTOP property and laughed about it together. Leroy supposedly UA'd them shortly thereafter but nobody involved cared. What are they gonna do, make me sit in the Chair? Was Mikes' reasoning. DAYTOP never kicked anybody out of the program, just shipped 'em too Athens if things got out of hand or if the kid was too rebellious or whatever. Greg Thomas was an ex-college football player who had to quit playing because of an injury and eventually started working "in the industry." Leroy Brewster was a guy who used to deal Ecstasy in the mid '80s, and had worked for the Buckner orphanage before he got hooked up with DAYTOP. I am pretty sure that Leroy was from Lake Highlands and went to Lake Highlands High School.

The other kids who eventually died were named T.J. THURMAN and Robert ROMAN. T.J. was the guy I told of who was a junkie and eventually got shot trying to steal somebody's car, and Robert was this Mexican kid who eventually joined a gang and got killed too.

One time in 1995, I was driving in Old East Dallas and saw Marcy out in her yard mowing her lawn, so I pulled over and got out of the car to say hi to her. I do not recall our conversation much but do recall that she told me she was working for UPS.

Let's see what can be done to hold 'em accountable.

The name old DAYTOP Dallas outpatient staff psychologist (whom I referred to the other day) is Susan MERLIN (like the magician) and the old staff social worker's name is Joyce RATNER. Joyce eventually quit working for DAYTOP because (as she told me years later) she began to see how abusive they were. I was in touch with Joyce a little bit over the years, off and on; as late as the year 2000/2001 I ran into her in a restaurant and we talked about "the old days" over lunch. Joyce actually apologized to me for what they'd done. I didn't "get it" at the time, what she was talking about, but sure do now. Joyce was a really nice lady.

I actually believed that DAYTOP had helped me for years after the fact.

That place really, really screwed with my mind. It took me fifteen years to see that.

Last I knew, Joyce was retired and I have no idea at all about whatever happened to Susan.

thanks for posting this. I am reading throught the entire thread now....so insane...Thanks for imput

SEKTO · « **Reply #127 on:** February 03, 2009, 01:13:22 AM »

You are welcome.

Everything I wrote is 100% true and accurate, every word, and I'd swear in and testify to it all in court if I had to.

This place and the people who ran it really screwed my mind and my life up, the minds and lives of my friends as well.

Such is the fruit grown from the branch of the second-generation Synanon-style program (and third-generation Diantetics-based program) called DAYTOP.

But I do not blame my parents, it is not rational to blame my parents; they did not know the whole truth about DAYTOP, they are good and decent people, and I do not doubt for a moment that they had my best interests at heart.

They did not want to hurt me, they wanted to help me.

They were caught up in the same Tough Love/Positive Peer Pressure fad that a lot of parents got caught up in in the early nineties.

They are victims of DAYTOP too, our parents.

Just like the parents of Mike Gomez. Mike was adopted, and an only child. His parents only wanted the best for him.

And DAYTOP Dallas indirectly killed their only child through their negligence and abusive treatment, which was inflicted by an unqualified and poorly trained Scientology-influenced pseudo-counselor named Marcy Langstein.

Mike Gomez was borderline retarded, half-blind and developmentally disabled. He had Fetal Alcohol Syndrome.

A nice kid really, he was not some junkie or a fuckup, and not the "big baby" that DAYTOP labeled him.

DAYTOP is essentially a "sobriety cult."

It's taken me fifteen years or so to recognize and even begin to repair the damage that DAYTOP did to my psyche.

My experience in , and recovery from the other groups that I was set up to fall into (Army, religious cults) has forced me to dig deep, do some serious introspection work, and I realize that the program is (gradually and to a lesser and lesser extent, the more I work on myself and consciously retrain my mind and therefore re-wire my brain) still running and is self sustaining, not requiring new input, because the program in a sense robbed me of my identity and in its place put reformo-me.

I have come a long way in rebuilding myself but the old "disk operating system" is still performing commands , if you get my drift.

And this grieves me. It all makes me feel very sad. I feel robbed, cheated.

It is very cathartic for me process all of this and to be able to write here.

Thanks again for your support and encouragement.

Anonymous · « **Reply #128 on:** February 03, 2009, 09:19:59 AM »

Sekto, I hope you really mean what you said you are willing to testify in court. You Have made statements in this post that are a lie. You also stated that some are HIV positive and some are dead and so on. I hope you have alot of money to defend yourself in a court of law. You are liable and I can't wait for you to have to pay the price for your lies. You have a number of facts wrong and It appears to me that you have a ton of personal guilt about how you treated someone. You can try and blame the program for your wrong's but you will have to live with it your whole life. Daytop did not make you treat someone bad. They also never abused you or damaged you. You were that way when you got there and you remain F*** Up. How dare you slander people who are dead. They have no way to defend themselves. While I do not have time now to disbute all your lies, rest assured I will. :twofinger:

psy · « **Reply #129 on:** February 03, 2009, 09:46:25 AM »

Quote from: "Honesty"

Sekto, I hope you really mean what you said you are willing to testify in court. You Have made statements in this post that are a lie. You also stated that some are HIV positive and some are dead and so on. I hope you have alot of money to defend yourself in a court of law. You are liable and I can't wait for you to have to pay the price for your lies. You have a number of facts wrong and It appears to me that you have a ton of personal guilt about how you treated someone. You can try and blame the program for your wrong's but you will have to live with it your whole life. Daytop did not make you treat someone bad. They also never abused you or damaged you. You were that way when you got there and you remain F*** Up. How dare you slander people who are dead. They have no way to defend themselves. While I do not have time now to disbute all your lies, rest assured I will. :twofinger:

Ignore this shit, SEKTO. It's a typical idle threat. Notice that the person says "you're a liar bla bla bla" but then conveniently doesn't have time to list which of your statements of fact are innacurate.

Anonymous · « **Reply #130 on:** February 03, 2009, 11:40:09 AM »

Sekto, Lets begin to breakdown your lies:

“If what I was told about her is true, then Marcy indirectly killed Mike GOMEZ through her abuse and negligence, IMO”.

Therefore, you heard this information from someone else. This is not fact, but something you Heard! I heard the sky is green; it does not make it true.

“Mike GOMEZ was the kid I told of, whom Marcy (going against his parents' wishes) told that he was adopted, according to my sources. This led to Mike becoming very disturbed and running away, eventually getting killed while driving drunk”.

How is this related? How do you know that Mike (God rest his sole) did not have a bad day. How do you relate one to the other? Again NOT fact but something you heard!

“We all treated Mike very poorly, and I regret that. He was the guy who was made to walk around with the pacifier”.

This is again a False statement. It should have been written that You treated Mike poorly. You have to live with that. How do you defend what you did? Do not blame other people for your actions.

"When I first got there in March of '92, the director's name was Mike GORMAN. He was a chain-smoking ex-jazzbo from NYC who claimed to have played the drums in Billie Holiday's band".

So you can believe everyone else but question Mr. Gorman?

"When you think you're looking good you're looking bad, and when you think you're looking bad, you're looking good" crap".

This was likely true in your case.

“Mike Gorman graduated from DAYTOP way back in the '60s and had worked for their organization for a long time”.

Wow, you actually have some of the information correct. He actually, started the Daytop in Italy and some other areas. He retired and then was asked to come out of retirement to assist with starting both Texas and Florida.

"He's been dead for over ten years. He was pretty old when I knew him, and I heard that he died in Florida at his daughter's house. He died in '93".

Not True. He died in his own home in Florida, surrounded by many people who loved him and who were Daytop Graduates.

“I am pretty sure that Mike Gorman had been part of Synanon back in the day, too”.

Not True. Never was a part of Synanon.

The next director after Mike was a guy named Eddie CINISOMO. He was a DAYTOP grad from NYC too and would always tell us that we were just statistics to him.

Actually, you were only a number or statistic. He was not your counselor or your momma. Come to terms with it.

“I don't know how or why he got removed from the directorship, but he did. He is dead now too, from some kind of natural causes, but I know no details of his death or the circumstances of it”.

How do you assume that he was removed from the Position? Maybe his illness had something to do with it.

“After Eddie was M******* another Puerto Rican, ex-heroin addict”.

It appears you have some issue with this person being a women and Puerto Rican? What a shame. You still have many issues to work out.

“I am not mentioning here name here to protect her privacy in case she is still alive”.

How considerate of you.

“She was (according to my sources) HIV positive but none of us knew it at the time, and I heard that she is dead now too”.

So much with this one. What does her HIV status have to do with anything? How do you know she was HIV positive? In fact, you don’t know anything about her. What a great lawsuit, this will be.

“She eventually died (or so I heard) from an AIDS related disease”.

I hope you know of a few good attorneys’ with this one.

I will further dissect you lies and Bull later. You are a weak person who tries to find comfort in others pain. It is amazing that quote as truth what you want to hear. Just because you failed at recovery does not indicate that others will. Daytop has helped many and not everyone who goes to Daytop will benefit. You can’t blame the program for everything. You have to take responsibility for your own actions.

Anne Bonney · « **Reply #131 on:** February 03, 2009, 12:15:25 PM »

Quote from: "Honesty"

Sekto, Lets begin to breakdown your lies:

“If what I was told about her is true, then Marcy indirectly killed Mike GOMEZ through her abuse and negligence, IMO”.

Therefore, you heard this information from someone else. This is not fact, but something you Heard! I heard the sky is green; it does not make it true.

“Mike GOMEZ was the kid I told of, whom Marcy (going against his parents' wishes) told that he was adopted, according to my sources. This led to Mike becoming very disturbed and running away, eventually getting killed while driving drunk”.

How is this related? How do you know that Mike (God rest his sole) did not have a bad day. How do you relate one to the other? Again NOT fact but something you heard!

Sorry. Couldn't help myself.

:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

Quote

“We all treated Mike very poorly, and I regret that. He was the guy who was made to walk around with the pacifier”.

This is again a False statement. It should have been written that You treated Mike poorly. You have to live with that. How do you defend what you did? Do not blame other people for your actions.

Were people really forced to walk around with pacifiers in their mouths?

Quote

"When you think you're looking good you're looking bad, and when you think you're looking bad, you're looking good" crap".

This was likely true in your case.