Author Topic: The Who  (Read 862103 times)

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Offline ZenAgent

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The Who
« Reply #750 on: January 13, 2007, 02:59:06 PM »
Again, who:  You claim to know of problems in the programs, and yet you keep pushing them, even mentioning program methods getting into public schools. So, where's the middle ground between you and me?  How do we end up on the "same page"?  How do we reach an agreement and make these places safe, if possible?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
\"Allah does not love the public utterance of hurtful speech, unless it be by one to whom injustice has been done; and Allah is Hearing, Knowing\" - The Qur\'an

_______________________________________________
A PV counselor\'s description of his job:

\"I\'m there to handle kids that are psychotic, suicidal, homicidal, or have commited felonies. Oh yeah, I am also there to take them down when they are rowdy so the nurse can give them the booty juice.\"

Offline TheWho

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The Who
« Reply #751 on: January 13, 2007, 02:59:48 PM »
Quote from: ""Deborah""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote
Don't weedle around on this and use your "story" like it's the only one. You seem to be blind to everything else except the experience you claim to have had. Anyone else's hellish time spent in a program is dismissed by you.

I think you have it backwards, I have spoken to, listened and agreed with many kids that have gone thru the program especially from ASR.  You are wrong again? What seems to be denied here on Fornits is that many kids are helped by these programs.  I admit that some kids don?t do well but it is you and many here that continuously keep your eyes shut to the fact that kids benefit.

Yeh, like your's, right? And like Aspen gave you access to all their attendees. I've seen you talk to a few kids here and claim that they are lying or grossly exaggerating, with no proof to base your comment on.
Who are you really?
What kind of 'parent' would, two years after the fact, be defending a program that admittedly didn't work for their child?
Exactly how do you profit from promoting Aspen programs?
Are you one of their Regional Marketing people?

Back to your personal 'success' story. You've claimed to not care that your daughter smoked pot after the program, that you were most concerned about her education. So you stick her in a lock-down where she is forced to get some quasi-education, then she bolts post-program and doesn't attend college, and doesn't talk to you for two years.

How do you consider any of that to be remotely 'successful' based on what you've stated that you wanted for her?

What YOU wanted for her, clearly is not what she wanted.
Teens will arrive at autonomy, despite their parents best attempts to interrupt it.
They have an internal drive toward autonomy which frequently puts them in conflict with a controlling parent. In addition to the normal confusion, there is a sense of betrayal. They can betray themselves by denying their own internal drives to live and learn, or they are forced with betraying their control freak parents.
The more controlling you are, the further you push him/her away. That's when you see excessive rebellion... aka ODD, abuse of substances, and all the other labels and problems program parents fear.

You, and the industry at large, have failed to show HOW the industry works. What most at Fornits say is that YES, a child can appear to have change. The program can definitely alter the kids behavior. But, HOW? And do the means justify the end. The more that's uncovered about the industry, the answer is a resoundingly, NO.


She didnt leave at all post ASR.  She went out and experienced the stuff she missed and partied a little with her old friends for a few weeks , came home every night and then settled down, finish ed her schooling.  She is 21 now and doing fine.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Deborah

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The Who
« Reply #752 on: January 13, 2007, 02:59:53 PM »
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""AtomicAnt""
Several times, The Who has decried the safety record of the public school system. He makes it sound like anarchy reigns in the public schools and so we should all ship our kids off to a program where they will safe.

Fact: Children are safer at school than at any other time. They are statistically more likely to be the victim of crime or violence (including murder) at home or in the community than they are at school. You can find several documented sources for this FACT if you bother to look. I am not going to do the research for you (remind you something you said?).

It may be safer, but is it safe.?  I think we know how safe the schools are these days for suicide and drugs and if your facts hold up and they are less safe in their community then getting the kids out of both for a short term if they are "At Risk" might be benificial to some of them?
I think we some how came to the same conclusion..


That's it, you're an industry robot. They overhauled your operating system this summer dumbing you down, and also deleting some files in the process.
We've had the discussion about suicides/homicides at schools vs programs. You continue to fear monger when suicide rates have been dropping for a decade. 1 per Million S/H at school  vs  1 in 2,300 at programs. Adverse drug events have declined as well. Do you live in constant terror? Or would you have others do so?

Excerpts on ASRs Effectiveness:
*Families arrive at the Academy at Swift River so ready to get their unruly child out of the house that few ask for statistics demonstrating a successful track record. Good thing. The school, located in a former dairy, is run by a for-profit company and does not compile such figures.

*One day, a student has an apparent breakthrough in therapy. Soon after, she's having sex with a classmate in the bathroom.

*One unorthodox punishment is to withhold spices ? including salt ? from students' food.

*Swift River revolves around ritual, yet the staff struggles, and sometimes fails, to keep order. The intensity of the work leads to burnout. One beloved teacher is later spotted by a former student working in a New York deli.
-And as Oz Girl reported, one staff said the only good thing about ASR is the kids.

*The only misfit in this well-crafted book is the title: It's unclear what it takes to pull these kids through. Counselors acknowledge some would outgrow their problems without Swift River. And one kid who absorbs all the nurturing Swift River can provide still ends up dead of an overdose.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Deborah

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The Who
« Reply #753 on: January 13, 2007, 03:07:36 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
No one comes to the same concluscion as you Who. You continue to somehow ignore that these TBS's are more dangerous than public schools and the kids home communities.


That's a technique he picked up in seminar. All good sales people know and use it. Just doesn't get past the bullshit detector here.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline TheWho

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The Who
« Reply #754 on: January 13, 2007, 03:09:05 PM »
Quote
We've had the discussion about suicides/homicides at schools vs programs. You continue to fear monger when suicide rates have been dropping for a decade. 1 per Million S/H at school vs 1 in 2,300 at programs


I dont think you were able to produce one suicide that took place at a TBS if I recall correctly.....
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Offline Deborah

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The Who
« Reply #755 on: January 13, 2007, 03:10:02 PM »
Quote from: ""TheWho""
She didnt leave at all post ASR.  She went out and experienced the stuff she missed and partied a little with her old friends for a few weeks , came home every night and then settled down, finish ed her schooling.  She is 21 now and doing fine.


Which lie are we to believe? You previously stated that she split for NY and didn't talk to you for 2 years, and didn't continue with school. I assumed you meant college.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Anonymous

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The Who
« Reply #756 on: January 13, 2007, 03:11:26 PM »
How about the girl at HLA who hung herself in her closet? She didnt die but she suffered massive brain damage and is currently a vegetable.

Does she count?
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Offline ZenAgent

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The Who
« Reply #757 on: January 13, 2007, 03:12:52 PM »
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote
We've had the discussion about suicides/homicides at schools vs programs. You continue to fear monger when suicide rates have been dropping for a decade. 1 per Million S/H at school vs 1 in 2,300 at programs

I dont think you were able to produce one suicide that took place at a TBS if I recall correctly.....

Lawsuits mount against Spring Creek Lodge

by John S. Adams

Missoula Independent

November 23, 2006

On Oct. 7, 2004, just days before her 17th birthday, Karlye Anne Newman slipped into a bathroom at Spring Creek Lodge Academy?a behavior modification boarding school outside Thompson Falls?and hanged herself in a stall with her sweatshirt.

The Sanders County Sheriff?s Department investigated Newman?s death, found no signs of foul play, and ruled it a suicide.

The Montana Department of Public Health and Human Services (DPHHS) also investigated Newman?s death. As a result of that investigation, a Montana PBS documentary recently revealed, DPHHS filed a child abuse and neglect complaint against Cameron and Chaffin Pullan, the twin brothers who own and operate Spring Creek Lodge. The case was ultimately dismissed, and due to a state law designed to protect juvenile victims of abuse, it remains sealed from public scrutiny. As a result, few details about DPHHS? investigation or the facts surrounding Newman?s death have been revealed to the public.

Some of those facts may soon surface in court now that Karlye?s mother, Judith Newman, has filed a lawsuit against Spring Creek Lodge and the Pullans. Filed Nov. 6, the complaint alleges wrongful death, negligence, breach of contract and fraud on behalf of the school and its directors. It?s the third in a string of lawsuits filed this year naming Spring Creek Lodge as a defendant.

In March, former Spring Creek Lodge student Jonathan Herrick filed a lawsuit in Sanders County District Court alleging negligence and breach of contract by Spring Creek Lodge. Herrick?s suit claims Spring Creek?s inadequate staffing and oversight policies led to repeated physical and psychological assaults against him during the time he was a student there. The five-page complaint doesn?t detail the alleged abuses, other than to say that Herrick ?suffered serious physical, mental and emotional injuries? while at Spring Creek. Polson attorney James Manley, lead counsel on both the Herrick and Newman lawsuits, declined to comment specifically on either case.

Additionally, in October Spring Creek was added to a long list of defendants in a lawsuit filed in federal district court in Utah. That suit alleges negligence, fraud, breach of contract, battery, assault, false imprisonment and racketeering violations?among others?on behalf of the World Wide Association of Specialty Programs and Schools (widely known as WWASPS) and its associated programs, which until June included Spring Creek Lodge. The 36-page complaint currently lists 27 plaintiffs, though Dallas, Texas attorney Windle Turley said he expects to add ?many more? to the suit in the coming months. Turley said he couldn?t comment on which of the complaint?s allegations pertain specifically to Spring Creek Lodge.

At press time the two Montana lawsuits had not yet been served. Spring Creek Program Director Mike Chism said Nov. 20 that Spring Creek officials weren?t aware of them and thus declined to comment. As for the Utah suit, Chism said, three plaintiffs are former Spring Creek students, though he declined to identify which three. He also said the three students had been enrolled in other WWASPS programs either prior to, or after leaving, Spring Creek.

?The lawsuit is really vague,? Chism said, noting that the complaint doesn?t specify whether any of the alleged crimes were supposed to have occurred at Spring Creek.

The Newman lawsuit, however, is more specific, and mirrors many of the allegations DPHHS initially made against the Pullans, as reported by Montana PBS.

According to the Newman lawsuit, Spring Creek?s program ?was not designed or operated to provide quality or even adequate care? and the defendants ?planned and operated Spring Creek Lodge Academy in such a manner that physical, educational, mental or emotional harm was consistently and foreseeably caused to the children at Spring Creek, including Karlye Newman.?

Karlye?s mother alleges that Spring Creek staff concealed the fact that Karlye was not progressing well in the program and that she had deteriorated physically, mentally and emotionally in the months she was enrolled at Spring Creek. Judith claims her daughter expressed ?self loathing, hatred of her life there, depression and despair,? and that Karlye made repeated statements that she was going to kill herself, but that those statements were ignored by Spring Creek staff.

According to the Montana PBS documentary ?Who?s Watching the Kids,? (which can be viewed online at http://www.montanapbs.org/WhosWatchingTheKids), DPHHS charged that Cameron and Chaffin Pullan, as officials of the school, neglected Karlye when she became suicidal by not providing her adequate therapy. ?Who?s Watching the Kids?? also reported that DPHHS alleged that Spring Creek employees placed Karlye in solitary confinement for periods of hours, sometimes days, ?damaging her mentally.? Finally, according to the documentary, the department alleged that Spring Creek?s method for keeping track of students was inadequate in that it left Karlye alone long enough to commit suicide.

A DPHHS hearings examiner initially dismissed the department?s complaint on the basis that 1) DPPHS lacked the legal authority to regulate the school; for that reason, the department can?t declare Spring Creek?s rules and regulations inadequate, and 2) the examiner didn?t believe DPHHS could prove its allegations of abuse and neglect. A district court judge upheld the hearings examiner?s ruling, and DPHHS appealed to the Montana Supreme Court before ultimately withdrawing the administrative charges.

In a statement issued by the school following Karlye Newman?s death, Spring Creek officials claimed that ?SCLA [Spring Creek Lodge Academy] was acutely aware of the girl?s fragility and had placed her on ?high risk? observation. After showing signs of improvement, the 16-year-old student was recently removed from high risk after consultation with the student?s counselor, the assistant clinical director and four staff members who had worked closely with her.?

But Judith Newman claims the staff never sought or conducted a competent suicide evaluation for Karlye and then failed to take appropriate steps to monitor, supervise and protect the teen.

According to the complaint, Karlye was missing for more than an hour before she was discovered hanging in the bathroom.

?Defendants made no attempt to look for her, or otherwise protect her,? the complaint states. ?When a staff member found Karlye hanging, the untrained and unqualified staff member ran out in panic. Defendants failed to provide immediate and necessary aid which might have saved Karlye?s life.?

Manley said he expects the Herrick and Newman lawsuits to go to trial sometime next year. Turley says it could be years before the Utah lawsuit goes to a jury trial.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
\"Allah does not love the public utterance of hurtful speech, unless it be by one to whom injustice has been done; and Allah is Hearing, Knowing\" - The Qur\'an

_______________________________________________
A PV counselor\'s description of his job:

\"I\'m there to handle kids that are psychotic, suicidal, homicidal, or have commited felonies. Oh yeah, I am also there to take them down when they are rowdy so the nurse can give them the booty juice.\"

Offline Deborah

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The Who
« Reply #758 on: January 13, 2007, 03:18:06 PM »
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote
We've had the discussion about suicides/homicides at schools vs programs. You continue to fear monger when suicide rates have been dropping for a decade. 1 per Million S/H at school vs 1 in 2,300 at programs

I dont think you were able to produce one suicide that took place at a TBS if I recall correctly.....


For the year we were looking at. But, there have definitely been suicides at programs. Fewer suicides, the majority are homicides- unpunished murders. And many suicide attempts, such as the one at ASR.
Until programs are properly regulated, we won't have the hard data. The programs don't want that data out in the public, it would show beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are basically over-priced babysitting facilities, warehousing kids until they mature a bit. Ironically, some program parents have even embraced that last comment. It's just fine in their minds to have their child involuntarily incarcerated and held against their will while they 'mature a bit'. The parent sleeps better and needs less Prozac.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline TheWho

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The Who
« Reply #759 on: January 13, 2007, 03:20:09 PM »
So we have 1 suicide in 30 years.  How does that compare to High schools?
I am the first to agree that it is only a matter of time before a child dies or is raped in a TBS.  It happens everywhere, schools, home, church, anywhere kids are found they will die and get hurt.  The question is where are they safer, when they are at risk?
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Offline RobertBruce

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The Who
« Reply #760 on: January 13, 2007, 03:21:56 PM »
Ryan Lewis age 14 Allredge Academy West VA 2001.


Who honey do you really really think there's only been one?

Are you really so naive?

Do you honestly feel because you've never heard of these things they never happened?
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Offline RobertBruce

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The Who
« Reply #761 on: January 13, 2007, 03:24:09 PM »
October 1993 14 year old boy jumped off a cliff at Aspen.

I'll keep looking for you Who.
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Offline ZenAgent

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The Who
« Reply #762 on: January 13, 2007, 03:24:14 PM »
What about the suicides that occur after time spent in a program?   Suicide in the programs is an issue, but would you like me to start posting the "accidental" deaths?  We'll keep it rolling for pages...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
\"Allah does not love the public utterance of hurtful speech, unless it be by one to whom injustice has been done; and Allah is Hearing, Knowing\" - The Qur\'an

_______________________________________________
A PV counselor\'s description of his job:

\"I\'m there to handle kids that are psychotic, suicidal, homicidal, or have commited felonies. Oh yeah, I am also there to take them down when they are rowdy so the nurse can give them the booty juice.\"

Offline RobertBruce

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The Who
« Reply #763 on: January 13, 2007, 03:27:16 PM »
Who would claim they killed themselves because they missed their program so much.


May 2002 17 year old girl hanged herself in her closet at the Deveroux Center in Denver
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Offline TheWho

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The Who
« Reply #764 on: January 13, 2007, 03:27:41 PM »
Quote from: ""RobertBruce""
Ryan Lewis age 14 Allredge Academy West VA 2001.


Who honey do you really really think there's only been one?

Are you really so naive?

Do you honestly feel because you've never heard of these things they never happened?


Yes as I look back, you are right,  the time frame that we have comparable statistics on public high schools was July 1999 thru June of 2000.
So we were comparing this time frams as a snapshot.  I will try to dig it up.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »