The Who

[Ganja]

The Who will go to any limits to win a senseless argument.

But will he go to the limit of permitting "Poochie" Stringfellow to fondle his junk liberally?  :rofl:

Who, go get yourself a copy of that album soon, please.

[TheWho]

NOW we have The Who trying to say that homicides and suicides that happen "away from school" can be blamed on the public schools?

The Who will go to any limits to win a senseless argument.

Since when is a public school responsible for what a studen does "away from school?"
Come on.....give it up.

Where does it say that?  These are national numbers, they are not mine, here check it out:

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2004/crime03/1.asp

[ZenAgent]

The Who will go to any limits to win a senseless argument.

But will he go to the limit of permitting "Poochie" Stringfellow to fondle his junk liberally?  :rofl:

Who, go get yourself a copy of that album soon, please.

Poochie gonna get a handful of Who's junk? Nasty.... :rofl:

[RobertBruce]

You read into it anyway you like, I see it differently, I am talking about the intent of the school. If a child was raped at a public school, could we conclude that public schools are designed or structured to allow this? Should all public schools be closed because of this event?
I have said this before that anywhere there are kids there are going to be people taking advantage of them whether that be a public school, a church or a TBS. Kids are going to get abused everywhere, I am not saying TBS are immune to this. I just believe they are safer

It's fine that you believe this Who, I have a four year old neice who believes in Santa Claus and I'm fine with that as well. It's basically the same thing. I'm looking for you to provide a basis for this claim not your own speculation and guess work but real numbers. The resources have already been made available to you, just connect the dots. You may also want to recognize that you're dodging the original issue. You claimed that you had never discounted another persons experience. Yet by your own admission a persons testimony should count as evidence. By you claiming that there was no evidence to support that any child had ever been abused or harmed at ASR you were effectively discounting their testimony and thus their experience. I'm also wondering what you believe kids at TBS's to be safer from? I can provide you with a number of examples of kids in TBS's being raped and or otherwise abused. Can you site the number of students raped in public schools? I'll bet it's less percentage wise than TBS's.

I agree 100% lets get those regulators after them ASAP, start fining them to motivate them, but dont blame the schools, they are not going to volunteer to oversight.

Why shouldn't they? You claimed these schools had the students best interest at heart. As was illustrated through your own analogy with the drivers license regulation leads to greater accountablity and safer conditions. If these schools really cared they would embrace it. Look at HLA, they have fought tooth and nail against our efforts to force them to become licensed as a theraptuic boarding school. Why? They certianlly haven't had any problems advertising as such. Is it really just because they hate the idea of more paperwork? No it's because all the regulations listed that they've been trying desperatly to ignore. Think about it in this regard, say you decide one day to grab some lunch at a local diner. You sit up at the counter and notice how clean the place is, after eating you head up to the cashier to pay for your lunch and there you notice prominently displayed a notice from the health department awarding the resturant a five star health rating, not only is it the highest score but you see that it was written less than six months ago. Now why would such a place let customers know they were being monitored or regulated as it were by the state?

You let me know what you think about that.

[Ganja]

It's fine that you believe this Who, I have a four year old neice who believes in Santa Claus and I'm fine with that as well.

  :rofl:  ::bwahaha::

[RobertBruce]

Where does it say that? These are national numbers, they are not mine, here check it out:

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2004/crime03/1.asp

True but why are those deaths important to this conversation. What point do they make?

[TheWho]

Where does it say that? These are national numbers, they are not mine, here check it out:

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2004/crime03/1.asp

True but why are those deaths important to this conversation. What point do they make?

If you take a snapshot in time it gives an indication of how TBS?s compare with say the public sector (non TBS?s) in the area of Homicides and Suicides.  This can give you a level of the water, so to speak, and enable one to create a bench mark for future data.  I am not indicating that this one data set is an end all.  It is one year,  if we looked at another year the death rate at TBS?s may be 10 times higher.  But all we have is this year to compare.
I actually would expect the TBS to have a higher incidence because the kids are at a little higher risk than a normal cross section in a public school system, in my opinion.  I expect there will be years where the TBS exceeds the norm and should be followed.

Say 5 years from now we may be able to draw the conclusion that TBS?s are safer or less safe.  Wilderness is safer or less safe etc., but this is a start anyway.

[RobertBruce]

You didn't answer the question. Why are deaths away from public schools important to this conversation. We are comparing safety in public school versus that of TBS's, Not when happens when the kid is at home, a kid could die at home whether he just got out of school or he is home for a visit, it makes no difference to what we are trying to determine.

[RobertBruce]

Say 5 years from now we may be able to draw the conclusion that TBS?s are safer or less safe. Wilderness is safer or less safe etc., but this is a start anyway.

Now this comment strikes me as odd Who. If it is as you claim and a conclusion has not been drawn due to a lack of data, why have you been so adament about TBS's being safer than public schools. If there isn't enough data how can you draw that conclusion?

[TheWho]

It's fine that you believe this Who, I have a four year old neice who believes in Santa Claus and I'm fine with that as well. It's basically the same thing. I'm looking for you to provide a basis for this claim not your own speculation and guess work but real numbers. The resources have already been made available to you, just connect the dots. You may also want to recognize that you're dodging the original issue. You claimed that you had never discounted another persons experience. Yet by your own admission a persons testimony should count as evidence. By you claiming that there was no evidence to support that any child had ever been abused or harmed at ASR you were effectively discounting their testimony and thus their experience. I'm also wondering what you believe kids at TBS's to be safer from?

Okay I will believe your evidence and testimony if you believe that some kids benefit and do well by attending a TBS or do you discount my testimony?  It needs to go both ways.

I can provide you with a number of examples of kids in TBS's being raped and or otherwise abused. Can you site the number of students raped in public schools? I'll bet it's less percentage wise than TBS's.

I haven?t found a number for students who were raped in public schools, no.

Why shouldn't they? You claimed these schools had the students best interest at heart. As was illustrated through your own analogy with the drivers license regulation leads to greater accountablity and safer conditions. If these schools really cared they would embrace it. Look at HLA, they have fought tooth and nail against our efforts to force them to become licensed as a theraptuic boarding school. Why? They certianlly haven't had any problems advertising as such. Is it really just because they hate the idea of more paperwork? No it's because all the regulations listed that they've been trying desperatly to ignore. Think about it in this regard, say you decide one day to grab some lunch at a local diner. You sit up at the counter and notice how clean the place is, after eating you head up to the cashier to pay for your lunch and there you notice prominently displayed a notice from the health department awarding the resturant a five star health rating, not only is it the highest score but you see that it was written less than six months ago. Now why would such a place let customers know they were being monitored or regulated as it were by the state?[

That would be wrong in my opinion.  If someone says they are being regulated and monitored and they are not then that is wrong and misleading and it should be addressed and changed, I agree.

[TheWho]

You didn't answer the question. Why are deaths away from public schools important to this conversation. We are comparing safety in public school versus that of TBS's, Not when happens when the kid is at home, a kid could die at home whether he just got out of school or he is home for a visit, it makes no difference to what we are trying to determine.

We can throw that out if you like.  There was a discussion once where people were talking about kids leaving a program and then committing suicide when they got home.  I thought this data point might be valuable to track.  If people feel it doesnt add value we can drop it.

[TheWho]

Now this comment strikes me as odd Who. If it is as you claim and a conclusion has not been drawn due to a lack of data, why have you been so adament about TBS's being safer than public schools. If there isn't enough data how can you draw that conclusion?

Well it is interesting you brought that up.  (In short a statistician will tell you there is never enough data !!) But more realistically as one collects data year after year you can get a clearer picture of what is going on, where the trends are and the data becomes more powerful, more conclusions can be drawn and trends determined, better decisions can be made.  A snap shot is a starting point but a string of many years makes for a stronger case.

But y0u need to go with the data you have at the moment to base your decisions on and then adjust with the trends as more information becomes available.

[RobertBruce]

Okay I will believe your evidence and testimony if you believe that some kids benefit and do well by attending a TBS or do you discount my testimony? It needs to go both ways.

Of course. I've never said otherwise, in fact as I pointed out to you I believe yesterday I've made statements in the past which state exactly what you're asking me for. I do believe that some kids benefit from time in TBS's. Not many, but a lucky few absolutly.

I haven?t found a number for students who were raped in public schools, no.

Allright then in continuing the conversation into discovering which is safer would you like to know just how many rapes and other abuses were reported to ISAC?

That would be wrong in my opinion. If someone says they are being regulated and monitored and they are not then that is wrong and misleading and it should be addressed and changed, I agree.

I think you missed the point here. The resturant is posting the health certificate given to them by the health department. It's not fake. I'm asking you why they would do that considering your apparent feelings on companies never volunteering for state oversight.

We can throw that out if you like. There was a discussion once where people were talking about kids leaving a program and then committing suicide when they got home. I thought this data point might be valuable to track. If people feel it doesnt add value we can drop it.

I just don't see how it bears on the conversation, if you're willing to offer an explination I'm willing to listen.

[RobertBruce]

Well it is interesting you brought that up. (In short a statistician will tell you there is never enough data !!) But more realistically as one collects data year after year you can get a clearer picture of what is going on, where the trends are and the data becomes more powerful, more conclusions can be drawn and trends determined, better decisions can be made. A snap shot is a starting point but a string of many years makes for a stronger case.

But y0u need to go with the data you have at the moment to base your decisions on and then adjust with the trends as more information becomes available.

Fair enough, I can tell you that the trend on the ISAC site would seem to suggest deaths, suicides, and rapes, are occuring more frequently in TBS's as time goes by. My guess however would be that it may not be the frequency is increasing but rather more and more these things are coming to light. There's almost no incidents listed as having occured prior to the early 90's yet I'm sure Anne or Ginger could tell us of more than a few deaths rapes or suicides occuring when they were in Straight in the 70's and 80's. You also have an abnormality in the data for public schools for that time span as it includes Columbine. Something of that mangnitude certianlly doesnt occur every year.

[TheWho]

Think about it in this regard, say you decide one day to grab some lunch at a local diner. You sit up at the counter and notice how clean the place is, after eating you head up to the cashier to pay for your lunch and there you notice prominently displayed a notice from the health department awarding the resturant a five star health rating, not only is it the highest score but you see that it was written less than six months ago. Now why would such a place let customers know they were being monitored or regulated as it were by the state?

It gives the people eating the warm and fuzzies that the place is clean and passed inspection.  I also believe it is the law to post it in a conspicuous place at least in New Jersey it is, I believe.  If it had a five star rating I would be very impressed and want to go back!!  
I personally would like to see TBS?s have oversight and receive a rating and I would be the first in line to vote for this.  But unless the parents ask for this and insist this be done then it has no value to the TBS?s it cant buy you anything.  I remember back in the 70?s the big thing was the BBB ?The better business bureau?  Everybody wanted to be rated and get on their list because customers would ask ?How are they rated? and it weighed heavily on the consumers decision whether to do business with you or not based on your rating.  I believe this oversight, regulation stuff is consumer driven and if people don?t ask for it no one will do it.