Typical Day at Sagewalk

[Anonymous]

Uh-what you are saying bears absolutely no resemblance to the programs my son attended.

If that is true, then I'm happy for oyur son.

I don't know where you are dreaming up all this crap,

Dreaming up? More like talking to people who've been through it. Unlike you.

but maybe you should check out some of the programs the parents are actually sending kids to!  Many of the TBSs are very similar to prep boarding schools, but with many more restrictions and lots of therapy.

Bullshit. Many of the TBSs are very similar to a POW camp.

Do you really think we, as parents, are stupid enough to just hand our kids over without knowing a lot about these programs and others who have been through them?  

YES! You do it all the time! You believe the program propaganda, you believe their "reference lists", but you don't believe the kids who've been there and know about the horrors that happen behind the walls.

Do you really think our kids are two year olds who can not communicate abuse to us?

You kids are not two year olds. And, no, they can't tell you if things go wrong. Why, you ask?
Because most facilities censore their mail. Becuase they are often told by the program staff their parents know about the abuse and aprove of it. Because the parents themselves are constantly told they can't trust their own children, and that any reports of abuse are "manipulations".

Many of our kids have been home for a year or two now, and we have NO reports of any abuse. Yep-there were lots of consequences for breaking rules.  Some of these seemed silly. Lessons were learned from most of them. These are kids who are now in college, in many cases.  It hink they could figure out if they had been abused.

Surprisingly, many of them can't. After being told for months and years that it's "for their own good", after reading letters by their parents in which their parents back the program up, after being subjected to the stress and psychological damage that result from going through a program-- many of them are no longer sure what is abuse and what isn't. And many of them accept the program's line, that what was done to them was not abuse, even though many times, what happened in the program will be considered abuse by normal measures.

You are a moron.

No, you are the moron. Unfortunately, it's your child who is paying for your stupidity.

[Troll Control]

On 2005-07-31 07:46:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Now THAT is a fine example of maturity and helpful input, Dysfunction Junction.  I guess you didn't stick with your therapy!



The parents on strugglingteens have not "given up" on their kids. To the contrary, they are willing to make the ultimate sacrifice- sending their child away from home for help.

You people over here will never "get it" and are accomplishing nothing.  I don't think you understand how truly in the minority you are, and how very few abuses really have occurred.  Hell, the Catholic church has a much bigger problem than the teen help industry. MOST of these programs are run by people who are properly trained and educated and have started the programs because they sincerely want to help these families and teens.  

Parents- if you have questions on specific programs, post on strugglingteens and you will get honest and thorough responses- from people who actually can construct a sentence."

What makes you think I was ever IN therapy?  I haven't been, and most likely will not be.  

The fact of the matter is that I am a highly educated professional with masters degrees in both Social Work and Business Administration.  I worked at two BM warehouses and know first-hand what goes on there.  You do not, and it's abundantly clear.

I was simply poking fun at your factually bereft pontification that the people who post on this site are "militaristic."  That staement is farcical and laughable, as most everyone on this site would be considered "liberal" by conventional standards and are opposed to violence of any sort, especially against children, which you clearly espouse by publicly advocating these abusive "programs."

Now, to address your "ultimate sacrifice," as you so pompously expressed it:

Giving your children away to strangers to be "fixed" is the polar-opposite of the "ultimate sacrifice."  

I would submit that it is also the height of hypocrisy.  Sending your child away is a tacit admission of parental failure on your part and a "cop out" to avoid the reality of your failed raising your own offspring.

Tell the parents of soldiers who have died in the line of duty in Iraq that their children didn't make the ultimate sacrifice by fighting and dying for your freedom, but rather YOU did by completely abdicating your parental mandate and handing over your kid to a behavior modification warehouse for reprogramming because you simply weren't willing to do what was necessary to nurture them into emotional growth and stability.

So get down off your soapbox, shut your trap and think before you deign to lecture others about a subject on which you are an abject failure, as you have become a self-revealed moron of monolithic proportion.

By the way, whether or not your kids tell you anything about their lives (which I doubt with sincerity), they do completely understand exactly what a failure you are for quitting on them when they needed you most.

Good day.

[Anonymous]

OK- I get it.  You weren't ever in therapy.  It's all clear now. You need to be! Yep, we failed as parents.  I'll admit that. It's a tough job these days. I did many things wrong as a parent. I set a bad example, I raged, I spent too much time at my job.  Having failed, we turned to professional help for our kid and ourselves. It worked. My kid is doing great. He isn't wasting his time moaning and groaning about losing a year of his life. He's taken some of the tools and moved on. I guess you don't believe in seeking professional medical care, either.

[OverLordd]

He was not moaning and groaning about a year of his life being striped from him, because you would of sent him back. Because you can't take it when some one disagrees with you or speaks up and out. So here is the question, if you have failed as a parent, if you have messed and fucked everything up, why are you not sent away to be abused? Why are you not tossed in a fucking camp like your kid? Remember, its your fault, so you should be sent away too.

[YuckFou]

On 2005-07-31 11:11:00, Anonymous wrote:

"OK- I get it.  You weren't ever in therapy.  It's all clear now. You need to be! Yep, we failed as parents.  I'll admit that. It's a tough job these days. I did many things wrong as a parent. I set a bad example, I raged, I spent too much time at my job.  Having failed, we turned to professional help for our kid and ourselves. It worked. My kid is doing great. He isn't wasting his time moaning and groaning about losing a year of his life. He's taken some of the tools and moved on. I guess you don't believe in seeking professional medical care, either.  "

You realize, THIS PERSON is the professional medical help you sought, I'd say they know what they're talking about.

I worked at two BM warehouses and know first-hand what goes on there. You do not, and it's abundantly clear.

[Troll Control]

On 2005-07-31 11:11:00, Anonymous wrote:

"OK- I get it.  You weren't ever in therapy.  It's all clear now. You need to be! Yep, we failed as parents.  I'll admit that. It's a tough job these days. I did many things wrong as a parent. I set a bad example, I raged, I spent too much time at my job.  Having failed, we turned to professional help for our kid and ourselves. It worked. My kid is doing great. He isn't wasting his time moaning and groaning about losing a year of his life. He's taken some of the tools and moved on. I guess you don't believe in seeking professional medical care, either.  "

Why do you think I need therapy?  I don't understand...

You are the one who, by your own admission, had (or has) the copious list of problems enumerated in your post, not me.  

Is it because you feel small and weak when someone points out your own admitted failures?  

If so, don't you agree that you need to look at that rather than pointing the finger at me, someone who does not have these problems or exhibit these maladaptive behaviors?

And, once again, let me correct your fallacious logic.  I DO believe in professional medical care.  Now, please tell me how your child was helped by medical professionals.

I already know how he WASN'T helped by unlicensed, unregulated, unaccredited pseudo-therapeutic hacks, so we can skip that explanation.

Congratulations, though, on your epiphany that you made terrible mistakes rearing your child.  Now if you could just admit that quitting on him and sending him away with strangers to be fixed was ONE of those mistakes, I'd say you're on your way to a meaningful breakthrough.

In the meantime, you should stop trying to advise me on my own mental health.  Remember, you screwed your kid up and then shipped him out to god-knows-where because you are feeble-minded and inadequate, not me.

Take care, and good luck with your therapy!

[Anonymous]

On 2005-07-31 10:01:00, Anonymous wrote:



Do you really think we, as parents, are stupid enough to just hand our kids over without knowing a lot about these programs and others who have been through them?

 Answer: Yes.

[Anonymous]

There's been a real sea change on this site since Brat Camp appeared

Same faces mocking/attacking all programs and schools---but lots and lots of posts from parents and others who seem to have a more positive view of (atleast some of)these interventions.

A person only has to look at the archives to see the ever increasing number of positive posts, must make y'all think that the barbarians are really at the gates!!

Interesting thing is maybe the advent of Brat Camp---which I personally loathe as intrusive to these kids'privacy---may have the same energizing effect on the viewing population at large in terms of acceptance of these kinds of programs and schools

[Anonymous]

I was not totally against these programs when I first heard about them.  However, I have always been against the show.  The name "Brat Camp" says it all.  It is nothing less than child abuse for parents to allow their kids to be exploited on television.  I'm sure the producers, who are making millions off the suffering of others, don't care.  But the parents, viewers, and the LAW should know better.  To put a sexually abused child on television and let the world watch his/her pain for entertainment is simply another form of abuse. There are excellent (and probably cheaper) PRIVATE programs offered by hospitals around the country.

As for the programs themselves, I was unaware that anyone had died as a result of the treatment allowed at these camps.  Where are the police???  Why aren't these MURDERERS in jail?  If a parent spanked their child for misbehaving in public, society and the law would react more harshly than they obviously have to these programs.  This is an outrage!!!!!!!!!!

[Deborah]

Because they're 'just' misbehaving teens. Abuse, Death... all justified, because after all, they'd be 'deadorinjail' otherwise. Parents and society in general fear angry teens, possibly more so than adult perpetrators.

We live in a violent culture that gets off on punishing people who will not buck up, accept or settle for never having their real needs met. This industry is but one ugly manifestation of a very anti-life society, Matrix.

[Anonymous]

There have been just a FEW tragic incidents- just as there are with day care facilities, elder-care facilities etc.  There have been a few programs that were more boot-camp than psychiatric in nature.  Many on this board have taken these few incidents as an indictment against ALL programs.  Most of the wilderness programs, emotional growth schools and substance abuse treatment facilities have caring staff with much expertise in the field. The leaders of many of the programs are passionate about helping teens. Yes, rules are strictly enforced. Yes, privileges have to be earned. The teens that are sent to these programs are not just coming in after curfew or smoking a few joints- they are engaging in  behavior dangerous to themselves and others. They have, in many cases, been arrested.  They have exhibited extreme violence towards their parents and siblings.  The parents have exhausted all avenues- and I do mean ALL avenues.  While the kids are at a wilderness program or therapeutic boarding school, the parents are working closely with the psychologist (a licensed person, in the case of all reputable programs) to examine family dynamics and how they can improve their relationship with their son or daughter. Painful disclosures might be made by the parents and the teens.  Usually the teen admits to behavior way beyond what the parents had suspected.  
These programs are not punitive. They are therapeutic. The therapists we worked with while our kid was in programs were the brightest and most gifted men and women I have ever met.  Our kid would agree.  Did he hate being at the program? Absolutely. Did he realize pretty quickly that his own conduct got him there? Yes. Did he come out a better person? No question.

[Antigen]

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of it's victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busy-bodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those that torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."--C.S. Lewis, God In The Dock

I think the human race encountered Peak Intelligence decades or centuries ago. The human race has been degrading into imbeciles ever since.
http://www.erichufschmid.net/Conspiracies_Underdogs_Main.html' target='_new'>Eric Hufschmid

[Antigen]

On 2005-07-31 12:59:00, Anonymous wrote:

As for the programs themselves, I was unaware that anyone had died as a result of the treatment allowed at these camps. Where are the police??? Why aren't these MURDERERS in jail? If a parent spanked their child for misbehaving in public, society and the law would react more harshly than they obviously have to these programs. This is an outrage!!!!!!!!!!

Well, occasionally, the law makes a nice gesture toward doing the right thing.
http://leehiphopshow.ipbhost.com/lofive ... t3687.html

I think he only got like 4 - 6 years or something. But it's just damned hard to get a serious investigation, even in extreme cases. Fact is, kids have no credibility on our society, especially those who's own parents will testify against them. It's not hard for a reasonably intelligent adult to manipulate a kid into acting out. It's damned near impossible for the kid to understand, far less explain, how that happened.

All of these comforting and reasonable things were taught by the ministers in their pulpits -- by teachers in Sunday schools and by parents at home. The children were victims. They were assaulted in the cradle -- in their mother's arms. Then, the schoolmaster carried on the war against their natural sense, and all the books they read were filled with the same impossible truths. The poor children were helpless. The atmosphere they breathed was filled with lies -- lies that mingled with their blood.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer

[Anonymous]

The teens that are sent to these programs are not just coming in after curfew or smoking a few joints-

That's EXACTLY what my parents sent me to one for.

[OverLordd]

Few tragic insidentent? Whats a few? A one digit number? a two digit number? I mean come on. We are talking murders here. One death is never too few to shut a place down. And you compare it to a elder-care facility. I don?t think the people at the elder-care people were laughing at the old people, calling them fakers, and druggies. And yes, guess what a few incidences is enough to indeed every one in the industry because these places are wide spread. Its not like it was in one program, or one person that did this, it?s across the industry things like this happen. To note the wilderness people may have knowledgeable therapy people, but they do not have knowledgeable wilderness people. I would not trust any of my charges with these people.

You also talk about privileges being earned, well guess what, even death row inmates get mail that is not read. The mail is a right that is extended to every one. To read it is a violation of civil rights and federal laws. This happens throughout the industry.

You say parents work closely with therapists to see if this is the right thing and to see that all avenues are broached. Well I call you a liar! My friend was sent off with no consult to anyone, and a few quick searches on the web.

These programs are plenty punitive, and indeed they tend to hurt those that come in contact with them. Is it not punitive to take a city kid, that has never gone on a hike in his life and toss him into a 8 week woods camp? The kid has no knowledge and is I'll prepared for what could be a life and death experience if anything goes wrong. It can change quickly, as I know. Forcing children to be strip searched, forcing children to eat their food, LIKE 3 YEAR OLDS, and offering shit for food. Is very punitive.

Indeed, if parents put themselves through the same thing, they would balk and sue the people. But you don?t, because you have not balls to do it. Remember never ask some one to do something you would not do. And indeed, you would never willngly go to prison.