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Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: GregFL on July 23, 2009, 10:58:55 AM

Title: This forum, Now and then
Post by: GregFL on July 23, 2009, 10:58:55 AM
This is Gregfl.  I originated this forum at the suggestion of Ginger many years ago.

I just am coming in to make a few comments.


This forum was conceptualized as a place where people could come and discuss this topic, this very divisional and controversial topic, in a manner that they could be heard.  It didn't matter what side of the issue they took, I provided a forum where people could discuss this topic safely. I deleted names, except the staff who allowed themselves to be named in the national media, and protected everyone else's identity the best I could due to the nature of the topic.   To this end no personal attacks were allowed  and for many years the forum thrived. We had escapees, staffers, graduates, and Barker insiders calling each other, talking out issues, and many people found peace and  understanding on these pages.

Several years ago my daughter became seriously ill and I abandoned moderating this forum.  For most the forum had kind of run its course and we old farts had resolved our issues and most of us had even come to respect each other no matter what side of the issue we were on. Most of us had  come to understand we were just children when this thing called the seed happened to us and that we no longer had to view it from the eyes of a child.  I had hoped the forum would continue without me  as kind of a resource for people who hadn't been fortunate enough to be around this forum in its formative and productive years. (to anyone concerned, my daughter is doing fantastic now!)

Unfortunately the forum is now being trolled by people with an agenda.  When a forum gets trolled, the 'goodness' gets lost, shouted down and buried under muck.  In this case, the debates, the resolution, the intellectual conversations, the ability to see where and why others think as they do, and  the coming to terms for many people is lost under juvenile anger, countless logins, profanity and nonsense.  

I offer no apology for this because I am not responsible for it.  If I still was, I wouldn't let it happen.   To anyone reading, please look at the prior condition of this forum as kind of a seperate discussion and I think you will find it enlightening and usefull.  To do this, you have to wade thru a proverbial bucket of crap for a glass of water, but the good things are still here.

If I was able I would shut it down and just archive the old pages.  I offer my support for those being attacked now and my assurance that if I was still moderating this forum it would not be occuring.

To all my friends still posting or reading, I wish you all well.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Cyndeelouwho on July 23, 2009, 12:35:18 PM
The name of the forum invites purging.

It is a necessary function of getting past the horror of acknowledging I was forced into that place in the first place and knowing how its mere existence spawned evil so horrid , it pales to Stacks fiction.

At 16, I HATED the seed, at 52, I am disgusted that their torture, fraud, lies, theft and other crimes against humanity were allowed to exist.

The seed was an an example of the purist form of con.

Addicts telling children what to do. Fucking heroin addicts.

All you former staff FUCK YOU, you were then now and still are junkies, pure and simple.

Shame on you for hurting children, shame, shame, shame.

If this is a contrary observation, enlighten me. I'd love to know why you bought into the circus sideshow.

And do not dare tell me the pat answer that "you were helping kids" because you were not.

IMHO

EDIT: This post was a commentary to former staff and was not intended as a rebuttal to the OP, sorry if he took it that way.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: GregFL on July 23, 2009, 12:56:35 PM
Perhaps you should seek a therapist to deal with this. Anger and rage at age 52 for things that happened to you 40 or so  years ago doesn't work and maybe a professional can help you deal with it.  You are slinging anger at people that aren't listening and/or don't care about  what you say because your message is juvenile and silly and downright counterproductive. Your communication is totally ineffective.

Your obession with Libby is unhealthy.  The things she "did" happened to her as well.  She was a child when she was put in the seed.  Do you know how she feels about her involvement with the seed  today?  Of course not.  But you choose to put people's names and address's on a website and assume that these people haven't changed at all in the last 40 years.  

  All you have managed to do here is make this forum unusable for everyone but yourself.   Maybe purging online in this forum  is working for you ( I doubt it, it seems the anger is picking up, not going away) , but for everyone else you are making a mess and ruining this forum.  A forum BTW that has helped hundreds of people come to terms with The Seed and how it affected their lives. At this point, anyone now who logs on looking for answers is proabably going to think anti-program people are all angry children that shouldn't be listened to, and they will be scared to participate because they won't want some nut looking up their personal information and posting it on a website.

You should log off the computer and go away.  Your participation is hurting you.



Just sayin.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Johnny G on July 23, 2009, 12:58:55 PM
Thanks Greg

I found the dialog helpful in resolving many of the issues, and reconnected with several people I knew then;

Now I see what a job it must have been

Glad to hear your daughter is doing better;
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: GregFL on July 23, 2009, 01:07:56 PM
Thanks Johnny.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Anonymous on July 23, 2009, 01:11:03 PM
Quote from: "GregFL"
Perhaps you should seek a therapist to deal with this. Anger and rage at age 52 for things that happened to you 40 or so years ago doesn't work and maybe a professional can help you deal with it. You are slinging anger at people that aren't listening and/or don't care about what you say because your message is juvenile and silly and downright counterproductive. Your communication is totally ineffective.

Sorry, Greg, but that is a pretty fucked up thing to say. Who are you to judge how and when someone else should deal with/recover from something that totally screwed up their lives? That is the same conformist judgmental mindset that did all the damage in the first place.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on July 23, 2009, 01:12:16 PM
Greg,

I too am glad your daughter is doing well.  Thanks for the posting.  Too much hatred evolves into God knows what.  There are enough crazies out there without evoking anything else.  I may not agree with everything on both sides but I certainly don't wish harm on any human being.  Enough hurt has been caused no matter how you look at it.

Peace to all.

Terry
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Anonymous on July 23, 2009, 01:16:52 PM
Ditto-------
Sorry, Greg, but that is a pretty fucked up thing to say. Who are you to judge how and when someone else should deal with/recover from something that totally screwed up their lives? That is the same conformist judgmental mindset that did all the damage in the first place. ------   :twofinger:      EXACTLY! thank you, and  this will all come to an end one day as soon as it is in the courts.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: OpenMeetingJerk-CL on July 23, 2009, 01:34:02 PM
Glad your daughter's doing well, Greg.  Hope you are as well.  Thanks for shedding some light on what has happened here with respect to the tone and interactions of this forum.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Anonymous on July 23, 2009, 01:36:00 PM
libby the child victim.

ha ha ha ha ha.

the victim that stole and wore my sisters clothing. ha ha ha ha.

the victim that would ride into the opa locka blimp hangar in barker's brand new black cadillac that was bought with grant money - for other purposes. ha ha ha ha.

greg -- did the threat of a feigned law suit against you scare you? ha ha ha ha.

reason number one you are full of shit -- WE were not invited into that world. we were dragged in, kicking and screaming.

they dragged us into something we wanted nothing to do with.

and now you want us to go away.

you fucking south florida losers.

30 some odd years later you still drag your asses around the hot, humid, mucky fucking dump.

i've lived in new york city, memphis, colorado, los angeles, san diego, and now japan.

you fucking south florida losers are pathetic, barker and libby the liar never ventured past their darkened door. and were scumbag pigs that never had anything to offer anyone.

the child victim - the heroin addict, barker victim, that to this day, still does evil deeds with that rotten filthy child molesting bastard.

i'd bet you'd change your tune -- because no doubt barker would pariah himself onto your sick little daughter, if he could and he'd do it for a tenth of a penny.

if you weren't in that hell whole, they shut the fuck up.

you started this board, and now you don't have anything to do with it.

so take your fear pill, and run off.

i'm having a blast scaring the fuck, and shocking the fuck, out of those low-end cunts.

if there was another board to do it, i would.

suck barkers dick you fucking little creep.

take a good look at all the dead kids in america, shoved in programs -- "saving kids". there are more forced deaths, rapes and suicides than any good being done.

your on the wrong side you fucking cunt.

my little stories are just that.

if they offend -- INTENDED!

i love the idea that barker gets the word from libbie's husband, or underwood, that his ugly cunt whore bitch of a wife is dangling from the old 84, with her wrists, and ankles, and saggy rotting breasts cut off.

i love it that i plant the visual SEED in libby the liars -- sleepy bed time reminiscence of sucking on the old bastards useless dick.

i love it that deep down, she can't look at her fucking reflection in the mirror.

i love it that barker hides behind brick walls.

you reap from the SEEDS that you sow.

and we "ain't" done asshole.

we just begun.

there are already three attorneys churning and scheming on this matter.

and all three are former prisoners of that hell hole.

i personally hope that somebody goes to one of libby's events with a fucking uzi, and a strap on bomb and blow her the fuck up.

i personally hope someone knocks on barker's door and murder the mother fucker, much in the fashion of the movies martyrs.

ye reap what ye sow.

do i need therapy?

hardly.

you don't know a fuck all about me.

i purposely use the vile filth that i learned from that fuck hole.

and i KNOW it has helped at least 4-5 people to get it out.

4-5 people that held that shit in for years.

you don't like it.

may your fucking loving daughter die the death you so fucking fear.

i don't give a fuck all!
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Anonymous on July 23, 2009, 01:40:14 PM
Thanks, Greg. It's truly a shame this forum has come to this. Allowing it to happen is one thing; joining in with them is another. At least one of the trolls says she's leaving. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it's true and that the others go away also.

But, I'm not going to hold my breath. The one in charge is enjoying too much.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: GregFL on July 23, 2009, 01:41:52 PM
Quote from: "OpenMeetingJerk-CL"
Glad your daughter's doing well, Greg.  Hope you are as well.  Thanks for shedding some light on what has happened here with respect to the tone and interactions of this forum.


OMJ-CL.   I am logging off here shortly, but yes things are different.  Being the former moderater of this and other forums I can pretty much tell you that many of these people who post  are likely the same person.  It is not unusual for a person/troll on a forum to interact with him/herself and even take on completely different personas with their various logins.  

Again, this isn't my ballgame anymore.  Nice hearing from you.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Anonymous on July 23, 2009, 01:43:23 PM
I'm not a Barker fan nor a Lybbi fan.  This Stack Jones guy is an evil guy.  He's worse than any of them.]
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Anonymous on July 23, 2009, 01:45:23 PM
the one in charge has a brother that died from suicide as a direct result from being in a place like that.

seed rule.

empathy and sensitivity.

that means put yourself in another's place and know how they feel.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Anonymous on July 23, 2009, 01:45:36 PM
Love you Stack.You so rock. :twofinger: ( p.s. Cyndee is going no where ) but you and your clan are, TO JAIL YOU GO> :twofinger:  :soapbox:  :moon:  :moon:  :moon:  ::unhappy::  ::unhappy::  ::unhappy::  ::unhappy::  ::unhappy::  ::unhappy:: ( for juston)  ::unhappy::
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Anonymous on July 23, 2009, 01:48:34 PM
GUEST IS ALWAYS LIBBY
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Anonymous on July 23, 2009, 03:31:25 PM
Greg,
I'm glad your daughter is ok.  I agree with all that you said.  I had commented a while back about how anger only hurts you and not the person you are angry at and I was thrown to the wolves.  I had asked a friend who came here often where you were because I couldn't imagine you running the site the way things were going.  You always seemed to be fair about things no matter where you stood on the subject.  I wish you well.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Anonymous on July 23, 2009, 04:22:07 PM
Ah, yes, fairness. You're lucky to've gotten something worthwhile out of this place back when actual discussion took place. When people respected each other. Wish I had a place like that now.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Anonymous on July 23, 2009, 04:26:27 PM
I never respected anyone in that place, and fought you people daily and got physically hurt by many of you morons.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Anonymous on July 23, 2009, 04:32:52 PM
Before you go calling names, read the post again. I was talking about THIS place, this forum, not that fucking hellhole in Lauderdale. Well, for me anyway it was Lauderdale. This place, this forum--it looks like people could actually get the help they need. Not so much now.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Anonymous on July 23, 2009, 10:56:50 PM
TXGreg - best wishes to you. Good move removing yourself from a site that isn't even a shadow of its former self. Though I always vehemently disagreed with your opinions, I always respected, and maybe even admired, what you attempted to do. You can be sure that none of the (what you call) trolls here today, despite their alleged anti-Seed enthusiasm, would put the amount of time and the commitment into this site that you did.

To the alias Stack Jones - I can merely derive from your posts that your arrogance is only exceeded by your insanity (or maybe just tastelessness, ...for your sake I hope so). Being somewhat familiar with Japanese society, (if indeed you are in Japan), I can only conclude that prisons and/or psychiatric institutions there allow inmates access to computers, (persons of an ilk, as pronounced as yours, are generally shunned in Japanese society). And as far as scaring anyone, give me a break, please. The only thing scary about you is your lack of literacy and your perverse ability to, somehow, get others to respond to your preposterously ludicrous, demented, juvenile rantings in a non-negative manner.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Anonymous on July 23, 2009, 11:25:20 PM
BOO HOO :roflmao: :jawdrop:
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Anonymous on July 24, 2009, 12:05:24 AM
Stack is doing nothing your pal Fart Barker has not done so all stop your b.s. and get out of your heads, you all sound like a bunch of new comers pouting. :twofinger:  :jawdrop:  :roflmao:  ::unhappy::  ::unhappy::  ::unhappy::  ::unhappy::  ::unhappy::  :bs:  :moon:  :rasta:  :cheers:  ::OMG::
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Anonymous on July 24, 2009, 12:41:56 AM
Quote from: "Revenge Fantasy"
Stack,
Youíre way off your target. You donít even know enough about other SEED posterís here to rage at them to this extreme. The reason why you donít  has a lot to do with the fact that you spend more time spinning self aggrandizing threads (all of which have steadily gone downhill since your earliest vents, imo), than acquiring any understanding from those whoíve been through it too.

Everyone deserves to vent their anger from what happened to them, yes. You just donít seem interested in anything other than escalating your own tantrums to a dwindling audience.

Learn something from others who understand your anger. Shut the fuck up on an at least occasional basis and allow yourself the time to think between ranting posts. If you allow yourself this you might not come off like such an ignorant self involved hyper defensive prick.

Another bit of good etiquette for you to experiment with would be to not open a new thread for every little thought that comes to you. There are other people and other topics here. If you and cadre want to be heard respectfully you might want to start by extending that to others.

Oh, and before you reduce this as coming from a SEED apologistÖI wasnít even born during the time of your captivity and the crimes they committed against you. I donít know who the fuck Libby is or was. You and your misogynist sing songs arenít really encouraging an audience to view your perspective as credible.
They're doing exactly what they set out to do and that is clown around.
The Jonses :twofinger:  :spam:  :clown:
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Anonymous on July 24, 2009, 09:04:51 AM
Lets all watch the clowning around in a court room. :twofinger:
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: GregFL on July 24, 2009, 11:07:49 AM
Quote from: "NobodyThatMatters"
TXGreg - best wishes to you. Good move removing yourself from a site that isn't even a shadow of its former self. Though I always vehemently disagreed with your opinions, I always respected, and maybe even admired, what you attempted to do. You can be sure that none of the (what you call) trolls here today, despite their alleged anti-Seed enthusiasm, would put the amount of time and the commitment into this site that you did.

To the alias Stack Jones - I can merely derive from your posts that your arrogance is only exceeded by your insanity (or maybe just tastelessness, ...for your sake I hope so). Being somewhat familiar with Japanese society, (if indeed you are in Japan), I can only conclude that prisons and/or psychiatric institutions there allow inmates access to computers, (persons of an ilk, as pronounced as yours, are generally shunned in Japanese society). And as far as scaring anyone, give me a break, please. The only thing scary about you is your lack of literacy and your perverse ability to, somehow, get others to respond to your preposterously ludicrous, demented, juvenile rantings in a non-negative manner.


Thanks for what you wrote.  My only wish is that the prior forum could have been archived.  I was repeatedly told by people that weren't even in the Seed  that they found it the most usefull forum on fornits.  The forum reached almost everyone who was in the Seed, either by participation, lurking, or by hearing about it.  It has gone from being a shining example of what intelligent conversation can accomplish to an example of how a few idiots can ruin a discussion.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Anonymous on July 24, 2009, 11:12:39 AM
Greg get over yourself.Obviously you started this forum for all the wrong reasons, these are victims, abused  remember, let it go, its not about you, it is about the victims.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: GregFL on July 24, 2009, 11:49:28 AM
Quote from: "Guest"
Greg get over yourself.Obviously you started this forum for all the wrong reasons, these are victims, abused  remember, let it go, its not about you, it is about the victims.

You are so wrong about everything you post.  If you took the time to stop ranting and making a fool out of yourself, you would see by my prior posts that I was forced into the seed myself at age 14, and that it was an immensely negative experience for me, resulting in a major divide in my family and me leaving home at age 16.  It took years and years for me to figure it all out and repair the damage to myself and to my family.  Much of the reason I started this was so other people could resolve their issues and come to terms with what happened to them. Everyone had their own experience. Some people got out relatively unscathed. Other people jumped off the skyway bridge after graduating. Some even had problems they resolved and went on to become fathers, mothers, doctors, lawyers.  Nothing is black and white.  Most of the staff members were forced in as well and underwent the same mind control the rest of us did. No one understood the mechanisms at work, except maybe Art Barker and Bobbie Dupont.   Blaming others  and threatening people who don't agree with you helps nothing.  Painting everyone with your experience just shows you haven't looked at what happened from a detached perspective..yet.  I hope that changes for you.

At least one difference between you and I is that I believe a level playing field and a fair and open moderated discussion allows the truth to bubble to the surface.  This forum used to provide that environment. Evidences that I am right are buried in these pages under the nonsense and garbaged that is spewed today..  You seem to believe that threats, insults, and bullying tactics get your message across.  You are wrong. Instead, the opposite occurs, people tend to reject everything that you say and dismiss the source (ie: You) outright.  You should know this by now. If you don't, You should actively seek ways to better communicate your message.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Anonymous on July 24, 2009, 01:22:09 PM
You need let the forum do its tricks is what your  saying then, listen I am new, and because of  Stacks posts I am able to see things, and say what happen to me, Stack is one of the originals put in there at a young age, that is the time I was put in as well, let him rant, his point of ranting is opening up others, seems that all can rant but him, I posted a rant of someone else as well who cares, its the net, get over it let it go. What did you all think that one day someone would not rant, time is nothing  years are nothing when it comes to that kind of abuse, no one at all would ever know how it really makes someone, the one to rant at is  Art Barker and the staff there, they created all this. I hope you have a good day with your daughter, take a break, there are monsters made from monsters daily, I do not think Stack is a Monster, but I do think the monsters are getting a little scared because what Stack witnessed and went through, and others, should and will end up in the court one day the way things are looking, lets all hope an pray that Art the creator of this sick abuse, gets the punishment he so deserves, I personally wish only JUSTICE for all. Peace! Remember they are the ones who called this an experiment...... :peace:
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Anonymous on July 24, 2009, 01:59:30 PM
^Troll trying to pass off as survivor-just trolled through 6 threads within minutes. Getting props from trolls should clue Stack in to somethingÖnah.
 ::poke::
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Anonymous on July 24, 2009, 02:03:11 PM
Are you a troll :feedtrolls: :roflmao:
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Anonymous on July 24, 2009, 02:05:17 PM
GUEST0 is a troll :jamin:
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Stripe on July 24, 2009, 02:35:45 PM
Greg,

I have nothing but the utmost respect for you and for the work you have done on this forum. And Ginger, too.  To both of you: your thoughtful questions and responses made the journey for me a positive experience.  Not necessarily an easy task by any means.  The challenges of confronting our experiences and our participation has made for some very interesting and thought provoking  discussions.  On a personal note, Greg, I've wondered where you have been of late.  I am sorry your daughter is not well and I hope that her health improves. While I never met you or Ginger personally, I appreciate all that you have done.
 :bump:

Thanks.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Anonymous on July 24, 2009, 03:05:21 PM
by Guest Ľ Yesterday, 18:43

I'm not a Barker fan nor a Lybbi fan. This Stack Jones guy is an evil guy. He's worse than any of them.]

--

ha ha ha ha,

i say words, mere words. and use purposely use language i learned from the seed.

and i am somehow worse than all of them.

let's get a few things straight loser.

i never kidnapped anyone.
i never committed fraud on innocent children.
i never collected money from the state under the guise of medical treatment.
i never destroyed pertinent medical records, that by state and federal law must be kept for the life of the patient.
i never formed a cult that was aimed at mixing 9-16 year old children -- who never did drugs, with hardened criminals, who were court ordered into the program or face long jail sentences.
i wasn't a junkie or a thief.
i never raped a teenage girls. (and yes, even if those teenage girls gave it up to barker, it is STILL rape.)
i never formed a cult that ended up leading to multiple suicides.
i never formed a cult that lead to one of the incarcerated program victims, snapping and murdering their parents.
i never stole clothing or records from vulnerable seed victims.
i never chain smoked and drank coffee.
i was never convicted of armed robbery and assault with a deadly weapon.
i never kept kids out of school for one year at a time.

but, at 14, i did REFUSE to comply with those assholes. i never gave in to them.
at 50 i now own and operate 2 private schools in japan, and expanding into other countries.
despite what other assholes here have to say, i worked at the public defenders office and juvenile courts. and damn well know there isn't a goddamn place on earth that models anything remotely like the seed, that will help a child. and judges today, are starting to get it.
my students are children, and i would never dream of putting one kid in harms way.
we teach disability kids.
while barker and libby ended up complete losers, castrated by the state they did all they could to suck free dollars from.

need i go on and on.

you blind fucking losers.

i bet the entire bunch of you - combined don't have the education, business, or life experience that i have. period!!!

that is why i am the ONLY person here that posts his name, address and phone number.

the only one that isn't anonymous is me.

because you are all drowned little wet rats. and that guy greg proved he is a fucking rotten little skeert women. he doesn't deserve to raise a child, because he is the type of asshole that doesn't take a stand.

he's what the bible calls a reed blowing in the wind.

me?

i've been on tv, radio, magazines, newspapers and did it all after i was a kidnapped and ransomed for kid. state dollars for flesh to fill a metal chair.

i continue to be in the media's eye.

and now i'm writing the seed story for rolling stone's magazine.

i'd love to get a call from barker's attorney. or libbies castrated and pathetic husband that posts here. and too afraid to mention his name.

he heard me loud and clear, i'd shove a crowbar up her ass and leave her permanently disabled.

i am proud to leave that image lingering in his mind.

i am proud to leave the image of ME holding barker's severed head in my hands - and his wife shelly had to visualize that.

i am proud that barker had to visualize his wife hanging from the rafters with both breasts cut off, and the words, the seed indeed carved into her chest.

that fucker was afraid back then, and he's afraid now.

he made fake bomb threats back in the blimp hangar, and tropical park days for false press.

he accused the mayor of miami of being hitler.

who was the hitler?

i'd really wish somebody would kill the fucker. actually, murder the bastard, in the same fashion as the murder scene in the movie martyrs. blow his fucking head off.

if you don't like my words.

ok.

actually, my words are meant to NOT be liked.

my words are chosen to entice, and to solicit anger, and fear.

and it obviously has, because barker, and libby searched out my sister cindy's name and posted it on this site.

we are not scared little kids nurse ratchett.

we'll take you on anyplace, any time.

i came here to stir up shit, and to let them know, how much they are hated by the masses, and what big zeros they all are, after the body count is all over.

--

i call libby and harass her and i love it!!!

it was great to see her answering machine voice changed from her to her husbands.

it was great to forward to her email many posts of the absolute hatred that is the SEED of their life's disdain.

--

get up off your asses folks and read between the lines.

i came to entice, and i have been successful.

libby the liar and her hardy har har husband...

they don't even have the balls to tell me not to call, and until they do, i am not violating any laws. and i still wouldn't be violating any laws until they got a court order. and they would have to serve me, and that would be hard to do, since i am in japan.

so therefore, i will continue to call, and ask for my medical records. which the completely ignore. because they know they are fuck ups that don't have them and didn't comply with state and federal laws.

i don't give a shit if she was 98.

i'd do the same if i took the time to find barker's phone.

--

if i saw barker in person, no doubt, it would not matter to me, if i spent a few days in jail and had to explain it to the bar, i'd knock him fucking out -- absolutely. and if i broke the fucker's hip as he crashed to the ground, i'd face the civil consequences.

because i am a man. a man that is not afraid to stand up and be counted.

you fucking lame brains don't count for shit.

you all are very pathetic and scared little animals.

you never found anything in life that was worth living or dying for.

you still live in broward, or dade.

and can't speak a second or third language.

--

the ONLY thing i miss from south florida is mario the baker, and char-hut!!!

you can keep that shit weather, and that ignorant city of hatred.

because as soon as i sign off here. i turn this shit right off.

you turds carry my words around like its some load of shit packed in your backpack.

to me -- i purge and tell it like it is.

and if nobody was looking, i'd grab a stick and poke it in barker's eye. i'd roll his head around in the dirt and i'd let the taliban use it as a soccer ball.

everything, everything barker stands for is pure evil.

--

you people now that are 50 or older, you forget so quickly how that fucking turd was having sex with minor girls.

and you dare say that asshole is better than me?

you all go and read this...

http://stackjones.com/web%20photos/Lady ... ash=false& (http://stackjones.com/web%20photos/Ladybug%20Destination/index.htm?detectflash=false&)

and tell me that barker every did anything on that level for kids.

i've had hundreds and hundreds of mothers write me and tell me they love my work.

my work is pure in heart.

and my life has always been full - post seed.

how 'bout you?

what fucking good have you done?

besides say welcome to walmart.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: GregFL on July 24, 2009, 05:39:44 PM
Quote from: "Stripe"
Greg,

I have nothing but the utmost respect for you and for the work you have done on this forum. And Ginger, too.  To both of you: your thoughtful questions and responses made the journey for me a positive experience.  Not necessarily an easy task by any means.  The challenges of confronting our experiences and our participation has made for some very interesting and thought provoking  discussions.  On a personal note, Greg, I've wondered where you have been of late.  I am sorry your daughter is not well and I hope that her health improves. While I never met you or Ginger personally, I appreciate all that you have done.
 :bump:

Thanks.


Thanks my friend.  The respect flows both ways.  

Stripe, now that so much time has passed I can tell you this.  You were the type of person I had in mind when the forum was started.    Watching you go thru the process of dealing with your past  and coming out the other side was immensely gratifying for me.  Thank you for your participation during the good times.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Anonymous on July 24, 2009, 06:01:12 PM
Likes the lady bug story, wishing all could save the others that are still suffering from those  horrible places, there must be thousands of kids hurting out there millions.How very sad.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: psy on July 26, 2009, 10:36:58 AM
Quote from: "GregFL"
At least one difference between you and I is that I believe a level playing field and a fair and open moderated discussion allows the truth to bubble to the surface.

Fair and open is subjective.  Fox calls itself "fair and balanced". It does not make it so.  The only truly fair discussion is one where nobody has any power over the words of others.  Sure it results in a fair bit of chaos, but there is also the guarantee that it is fair.  You might have been a benevolent monarch, but such a system is only as good as it's leader... and people shouldn't have to trust in a leader...  they should be able to trust in a system.  As it is a system exists that does not rely on a single person's benevolence or fairness where in a sense nobody and everybody is in charge.  Everybody has a fair shake at the discussion table including the "trolls" which is really a term for that which you personally find irrelevant, distracting, or otherwise offensive..
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: try another castle on July 26, 2009, 10:45:56 AM
Quote from: "psy"
Quote from: "GregFL"
At least one difference between you and I is that I believe a level playing field and a fair and open moderated discussion allows the truth to bubble to the surface.

Fair and open is subjective.  Fox calls itself "fair and balanced". It does not make it so.  The only truly fair discussion is one where nobody has any power over the words of others.  Sure it results in a fair bit of chaos, but there is also the guarantee that it is fair.  You might have been a benevolent monarch, but such a system is only as good as it's leader... and people shouldn't have to trust in a leader...  they should be able to trust in a system.  As it is a system exists that does not rely on a single person's benevolence or fairness where in a sense nobody and everybody is in charge.  Everybody has a fair shake at the discussion table including the "trolls" which is really a term for that which you personallyfind irrelevant, distracting, or otherwise offensive..

this^

You're going to have to deal with asshats regardless. I'd rather not have someone up top deciding for themselves who is an asshat and who is not.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Cyndeelouwho on July 26, 2009, 10:55:38 AM
Quote
The seed discussion forum is for survivors of the Seed and Seed copycat programs and for other interested parties. The moderator and owner of this forum accept no responsiblity for content. This is a first admendment based open discussion and all opinions and topics are welcome. By posting or reading, you agree to these terms.

Just sayin
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Anonymous on July 26, 2009, 11:12:28 AM
hello cyndeelou, nice to see you  :twofinger:
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Anonymous on July 26, 2009, 11:19:56 AM
this guy Greg altered people's posts... "deleted names" "no personal attacks were allowed" -- interesting as now hes calling stack femboy and worse ad hominems

good thing hes not the moderator!!  :twofinger:  :twofinger:  :twofinger:

Quote from: "GregFL"
This is Gregfl.  I originated this forum at the suggestion of Ginger many years ago.

I just am coming in to make a few comments.


This forum was conceptualized as a place where people could come and discuss this topic, this very divisional and controversial topic, in a manner that they could be heard.  It didn't matter what side of the issue they took, I provided a forum where people could discuss this topic safely. I deleted names, except the staff who allowed themselves to be named in the national media, and protected everyone else's identity the best I could due to the nature of the topic.   To this end no personal attacks were allowed  and for many years the forum thrived. We had escapees, staffers, graduates, and Barker insiders calling each other, talking out issues, and many people found peace and  understanding on these pages.

Several years ago my daughter became seriously ill and I abandoned moderating this forum.  For most the forum had kind of run its course and we old farts had resolved our issues and most of us had even come to respect each other no matter what side of the issue we were on. Most of us had  come to understand we were just children when this thing called the seed happened to us and that we no longer had to view it from the eyes of a child.  I had hoped the forum would continue without me  as kind of a resource for people who hadn't been fortunate enough to be around this forum in its formative and productive years. (to anyone concerned, my daughter is doing fantastic now!)

Unfortunately the forum is now being trolled by people with an agenda.  When a forum gets trolled, the 'goodness' gets lost, shouted down and buried under muck.  In this case, the debates, the resolution, the intellectual conversations, the ability to see where and why others think as they do, and  the coming to terms for many people is lost under juvenile anger, countless logins, profanity and nonsense.  

I offer no apology for this because I am not responsible for it.  If I still was, I wouldn't let it happen.   To anyone reading, please look at the prior condition of this forum as kind of a seperate discussion and I think you will find it enlightening and usefull.  To do this, you have to wade thru a proverbial bucket of crap for a glass of water, but the good things are still here.

If I was able I would shut it down and just archive the old pages.  I offer my support for those being attacked now and my assurance that if I was still moderating this forum it would not be occuring.

To all my friends still posting or reading, I wish you all well.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: GregFL on July 26, 2009, 12:27:41 PM
Quote from: "psy"
Quote from: "GregFL"
At least one difference between you and I is that I believe a level playing field and a fair and open moderated discussion allows the truth to bubble to the surface.

Fair and open is subjective.  Fox calls itself "fair and balanced". It does not make it so.  The only truly fair discussion is one where nobody has any power over the words of others.  Sure it results in a fair bit of chaos, but there is also the guarantee that it is fair.  You might have been a benevolent monarch, but such a system is only as good as it's leader... and people shouldn't have to trust in a leader...  they should be able to trust in a system.  As it is a system exists that does not rely on a single person's benevolence or fairness where in a sense nobody and everybody is in charge.  Everybody has a fair shake at the discussion table including the "trolls" which is really a term for that which you personally find irrelevant, distracting, or otherwise offensive..


Quote from: "psy"
Quote from: "GregFL"
At least one difference between you and I is that I believe a level playing field and a fair and open moderated discussion allows the truth to bubble to the surface.

Fair and open is subjective.  Fox calls itself "fair and balanced". It does not make it so.  The only truly fair discussion is one where nobody has any power over the words of others.  Sure it results in a fair bit of chaos, but there is also the guarantee that it is fair.  You might have been a benevolent monarch, but such a system is only as good as it's leader... and people shouldn't have to trust in a leader...  they should be able to trust in a system.  As it is a system exists that does not rely on a single person's benevolence or fairness where in a sense nobody and everybody is in charge.  Everybody has a fair shake at the discussion table including the "trolls" which is really a term for that which you personally find irrelevant, distracting, or otherwise offensive..


I disagree.  IT puts the power in the hands of the person with the least amount of integrity.  It revolts and turns away good people who would otherwise contribute.  It invites people with little to contribute to disrupt the flow of information, and it allows people with nothing more to do to flood and bury topics that they don't like and to create multiple logins to agree with themselves and to gang up on the opposition.

A fairly (non fox news) moderated discussion omits this type of environment and just allows people to stay on topic and to equally debate an issue.  If the moderator isn't fair, it reverts back to the situation you have here where people shout down the opposition.  This is why debates are moderated. In its persent form, this forum  is not a conversation, it is a method of propping up internet bullies.  

We will agree to disagree on this point, just as Ginger and I have for years and years.

That's okay Pysc, It just doesn't comport with my vision of a an interesting conversation.  I am out of here and wish everyone the best.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: GregFL on July 26, 2009, 12:37:07 PM
Quote from: "Guest"
this guy Greg altered people's posts... "deleted names" "no personal attacks were allowed" --


That is true.  Regardless of which side of an issue you were on, you were not allowed to shout obscenities at anyone, or I would delete them.  You were not allowed to "out" people who were in the seed, as it could impact their jobs and their lives in general.  As far as altering posts, I never deleted anyone's opinion and I had trolls that hated me, just as now, except the difference was back then they were on both sides of the issue. The original intent of THIS (not all formits forums) was to engage people in an adult conversation and to attract everyone to the conversation.  We did it, and it was a huge success in my opinion.    For those that wanted to troll, well there was always the Straight forum which allowed it.

Obviously those in charge now have a different vision, and to me the result  speaks for itself.  You may disagree, and that is fine. Have at it.  I won't waste any more time dealing with mentally unstable people who post violent fantasies and attack people's families when they disagree with what they say.

Good day.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Antigen on July 26, 2009, 12:52:02 PM
I'm not caught up on this thread yet, but I have to stop and throw this in.

Quote from: "GregFL"

Thanks for what you wrote.  My only wish is that the prior forum could have been archived.  I was repeatedly told by people that weren't even in the Seed  that they found it the most usefull forum on fornits.  The forum reached almost everyone who was in the Seed, either by participation, lurking, or by hearing about it.  It has gone from being a shining example of what intelligent conversation can accomplish to an example of how a few idiots can ruin a discussion.

The whole history is still there minus that 4 month gap when we lost a server to hackers. This was, as many will recall, directly after having been forced by legal threat from one server to another till finally finding refuge with the same hackers who beat Scientology senseless there fore awhile. While that whole battle certainly did put a crimp in normal hosting functionality it also put us into contact with some of the best free speech legal talent and into the limelight of some fairly influential circles in law and info wars.

The industry don't play nice. Once in awhile, though nowhere near as often as one might expect, along comes someone who's about as ruthless from the other side. Not everyone who comes around these forums is looking for "help" in the way you use the term. This is reality. Some people are still really angry. These folks seem to have just recently reopened this spooky little chapter of their lives.

Right now former staff of one of the more physically brutal programs in Mo are pursuing legal action against the director, Willa Bundy. It would be easy to put this shit way in the past if it would just stay there. But it doesn't. And, like it or not, some of our wonderful Seed family that we didn't ask for were among the most highly celebrated luminaries in what has come to be known the Teen Hurt industry, the Troubled Parent Industry and the ToughLove Hategroup. Don't you think their fans deserve to know all the details of their hero's lives?

This is still a shining example of what intelligent conversation can accomplish. If the current tone of conversation is not your flavor then pass it by.

BTW, I'm also glad your daughter is doing so well. My niece seems to be coming around pretty well too.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Anonymous on July 26, 2009, 12:52:38 PM
Control  Control Control , is this all anyone wants to do?????
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Antigen on July 26, 2009, 01:08:44 PM
Quote from: "psy"
Quote from: "GregFL"
At least one difference between you and I is that I believe a level playing field and a fair and open moderated discussion allows the truth to bubble to the surface.

Fair and open is subjective.  Fox calls itself "fair and balanced". It does not make it so.  The only truly fair discussion is one where nobody has any power over the words of others.  Sure it results in a fair bit of chaos, but there is also the guarantee that it is fair.  You might have been a benevolent monarch, but such a system is only as good as it's leader... and people shouldn't have to trust in a leader...  they should be able to trust in a system.  As it is a system exists that does not rely on a single person's benevolence or fairness where in a sense nobody and everybody is in charge.  Everybody has a fair shake at the discussion table including the "trolls" which is really a term for that which you personally find irrelevant, distracting, or otherwise offensive..

I wish you'd come steal Vic from that fireman!

 :rose:
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Antigen on July 26, 2009, 01:21:48 PM
Quote from: "control control control"
Control  Control Control , is this all anyone wants to do?????

Not I.

Honestly, I wasn't aware at the time of how much editing was going on. Mostly, I thought it was spam n so forth. And it was a pretty interesting conversation at times, I'll give ya that. But what happened to all of our Seed family members who bounced off the first time they noticed the censorship? Maybe we'll be hearing from some of them again soon.

On the other hand, Stack, don't assume too much about somebody based on their anger level. Honestly, I'm nowhere near as angry about the whole thing as you guys are. I was. Now I just keep pluggin' along at a casual, sustainable pace of muck raking.

And honestly, don't you miss the lizzards? Ya have to admit that the lizzards and the mocking birds were pretty damned cool.

 :peace:
In all things, moderation; including moderation!
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Anonymous on July 26, 2009, 03:19:35 PM
[quote="psy] Fair and open is subjective.  Fox calls itself "fair and balanced". It does not make it so.  The only truly fair discussion is one where nobody has any power over the words of others.  Sure it results in a fair bit of chaos, but there is also the guarantee that it is fair.  You might have been a benevolent monarch, but such a system is only as good as it's leader... and people shouldn't have to trust in a leader...  they should be able to trust in a system.  As it is a system exists that does not rely on a single person's benevolence or fairness where in a sense nobody and everybody is in charge.  Everybody has a fair shake at the discussion table including the "trolls" which is really a term for that which you personally find irrelevant, distracting, or otherwise offensive..[/quote]

Because you're writing the above makes it so?  You're no worse or better than the person you're attempting to educate with all your subjectivity.  Nor am I for responding to you.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Antigen on July 26, 2009, 03:43:15 PM
Quote from: "susantoo"
Quote from: "psy"
Fair and open is subjective.  Fox calls itself "fair and balanced". It does not make it so.  The only truly fair discussion is one where nobody has any power over the words of others.  Sure it results in a fair bit of chaos, but there is also the guarantee that it is fair.  You might have been a benevolent monarch, but such a system is only as good as it's leader... and people shouldn't have to trust in a leader...  they should be able to trust in a system.  As it is a system exists that does not rely on a single person's benevolence or fairness where in a sense nobody and everybody is in charge.  Everybody has a fair shake at the discussion table including the "trolls" which is really a term for that which you personally find irrelevant, distracting, or otherwise offensive..

Because you're writing the above makes it so?

Of course not. No more than Art's obit is true just because someone wrote it. Now, can you find any logical flaw in Psy's take?

[/quote]
Quote from: "susantoo"
You're no worse or better than the person you're attempting to educate with all your subjectivity.  Nor am I for responding to you.

I think that was a fairly objective statement about subjectivity and how to avoid it..... one to which you have obviously responded. That usually means your argument had no legs.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Cyndeelouwho on July 26, 2009, 03:46:57 PM
Originally , I found this forum after reading information from other sources online related to the troubled child  (for profit) industry. I had some dialog via facebook with a few folks who have posted on here and read through the entire thread of archived posts under the seed discussion forum. I ws emotionally exhausted and mentally drained amd had a few rough nights (ask my husband)
I actually woke him up a time or two, yelling in my sleep , with clinched fists. He had no idea what was going on and asked if I was OK, I am OK but it was hell for a few days. I actually ripped the sheets running away , all in my sleep. This is not made up for attention, sympathy or any other reason, It is what happened to me after reading the posts many folks contributed back in 2001 to 2005.
I felt happy I had found this place but the anger poured out of me. I rented "over the GW", I read Marc P's. take (we were in together at T.P.), I laughed, I cried, I hated, all over again.
I have gone to therapy, I had worked it out, just as I did when my ten year old son passed away. I am not a mean person, I am not a bad person. I am a person who had mean and bad things happen to them.
And so did my younger brother and sister.
I read the rules of the forum and lurked around for several weeks, scared to post because maybe it was a set up. When it felt safe, I jumped in and maybe my words were biting and childish and vulgar, but like all of you "old timers", I was venting just as you did years before me.
When I was in hospice and grief counseling , I was told that people grieve in different ways, some get through it quickly, some take time, other repress it for as long as necessary. There were no hard and firm rule about getting through tragedy.
I guess I had held in all that stuff for so long and it was ready to come out.
I am completely aware that my captives are not reading this stuff and have moved on in their lifes or are so old , it doesn't matter. Those are not the people I was raging at. I was raging at the ones in charge then and who they were then and what they were allowed to do with no authority, training or concern for the outcome, except lining their pocket under the guise of helping children.
In reading the archive posts , I noticed similar sentiment and rage, obsession and expression. There was kidding around, talk of lawsuit, name calling to the guilty, threats, questions, posting of public data, encounters, sharing, thoughts, ideas; all unique to the poster at the time. There was even a little sarcasm and fantasy.
Being asked to leave and move on was a lot like being stood up and started over, for those of you that went through that.
I am not perfect, right, wrong, stupid, selfish, or a whore (some of you will get this)
I am just a former seedling who suffered at the hands of untrained and unqualified people who are long gone but should not ever be forgotten , even  if you do not agree with my perspective or my postings.
They should never be forgotten because this is where it all started .
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Anonymous on July 26, 2009, 04:22:20 PM
Thanks sis, was nice to hear something that felt like it made sense to me,I Feel the same, I will be honest I could never forgive those souls that tormented me, I never will, I am happy you posted, always good to listen to the things you say, I cannot wait to see you next week, I like you have nothing to hide nor am I ashamed for what others did to us, the keys is where we will be soon, where before all this crap happened we use to go to as young kids, we will have to make your hubby roll down the hill at Greynolds park, the park I use to go sleep in as a child to forget about this horrible nightmare, we will toast to survival, and Life, and salute Antigen , she sounds like a really nice person, I was not kidding all are invited,  anyone else up for brunch, was thinking Rusty pelican, the lobster tails are delicious, well nice to see you posting,  and see you soon,  :rose: sister sue she loves you. :peace:
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Anonymous on July 26, 2009, 05:51:21 PM
Quote
I think that was a fairly objective statement about subjectivity and how to avoid it..... one to which you have obviously responded. That usually means your argument had no legs.

See, there's no argument from me. It's called discussion. Sometimes words don't lead to arguments, Ginger/Antigen/Eudora. You need to learn this for your own sake. FWIW, here's my defintion of objective (which is what I was aiming for, so, thanks for recognizing it):

Not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased: an objective opinion.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Anonymous on July 26, 2009, 06:05:37 PM
Quote
Of course not. No more than Art's obit is true just because someone wrote it. Now, can you find any logical flaw in Psy's take?

When and where did I state there was a logical flaw in Psy's take? You are quite the little agitator, aren't you?  Ah, that's right. Muckraker is what you call yourself. Sometimes there is no muck to rake. Quit looking for it in every post or thread you read.

Re: the other issue of "Art's obit." I have no comment at this time.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Anonymous on July 26, 2009, 07:36:06 PM
is susantoo chanting to self????
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: GregFL on July 26, 2009, 11:14:14 PM
Quote from: "Antigen"
Quote from: "susantoo"
Quote from: "psy"
Fair and open is subjective.  Fox calls itself "fair and balanced". It does not make it so.  The only truly fair discussion is one where nobody has any power over the words of others.  Sure it results in a fair bit of chaos, but there is also the guarantee that it is fair.  You might have been a benevolent monarch, but such a system is only as good as it's leader... and people shouldn't have to trust in a leader...  they should be able to trust in a system.  As it is a system exists that does not rely on a single person's benevolence or fairness where in a sense nobody and everybody is in charge.  Everybody has a fair shake at the discussion table including the "trolls" which is really a term for that which you personally find irrelevant, distracting, or otherwise offensive..

. Now, can you find any logical flaw in Psy's take?



I could spend quite a bit of time picking it apart, especially his gratuitis re-definition of  the geneally accepted meaning of "forum troll" to suit his point, but generally the implication is 1) don't trust a leader, moderation is subjective and isn't 'fair' 2) trust a system instead, see the objective results!

This neglects the fact that the system can be manipulated, in absense of a leader ie: moderator , by people who want the system to fail, thereby rendering the system a failure.  Example a) this forum in its current state.

This neglects that if a forum wants an open discussion, and 100 people with opinion A pile on every new person with opinion B, that no constructive OPEN conversation will occur.

There is more butI will leave it here.


Moderating forums is tricky and can result in even worse results than an unmoderated forum if the forum leader is not benevolent and unbaised in his/her moderation.  In addition it is mostly less than thankless. you open yourself up to attacks continually deal with spam and idiots, and of course the pay is atrocious.  The net is swamped with examples of bad forums.  Forum moderation with rules that apply to everyone in my opinion yield the best results, especially when you want open conversation from all sides of a discussion.  The forum now obviously isn't looking for that and shouts down contrary opinions. It seems like you guys want a anti-program party and not a discussion, and that is fine.  Just please  if you have the time archive the forum at the point I left, and rename the new forum "I  hate the seed and dare you to come in here".   That would be more honest.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Anonymous on July 26, 2009, 11:21:06 PM
Greg you are no leader in my eyes, like I said lets see how long this goes on for, lol, I wonder if greg talks to self while sleeping? :roflmao:
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Anonymous on July 26, 2009, 11:23:05 PM
Greg will never get it.  :wall:  :beat:  something tells me I may get stood up for this one. :roflmao:
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Anonymous on July 27, 2009, 10:36:10 AM
Quote from: "Antigen"
Quote from: "control control control"
Control  Control Control , is this all anyone wants to do?????

Not I.

Honestly, I wasn't aware at the time of how much editing was going on. Mostly, I thought it was spam n so forth. And it was a pretty interesting conversation at times, I'll give ya that. But what happened to all of our Seed family members who bounced off the first time they noticed the censorship? Maybe we'll be hearing from some of them again soon.

On the other hand, Stack, don't assume too much about somebody based on their anger level. Honestly, I'm nowhere near as angry about the whole thing as you guys are. I was. Now I just keep pluggin' along at a casual, sustainable pace of muck raking.

And honestly, don't you miss the lizzards? Ya have to admit that the lizzards and the mocking birds were pretty damned cool.

 :peace:
In all things, moderation; including moderation!


From the FAQ:

What are Administrators?
Administrators are members assigned with the highest level of control over the entire board. These members can control all facets of board operation, including setting permissions, banning users, creating usergroups or moderators, etc., dependent upon the board founder and what permissions he or she has given the other administrators. They may also have full moderator capabilities in all forums, depending on the settings put forth by the board founder.
Top

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What are Moderators?
Moderators are individuals (or groups of individuals) who look after the forums from day to day. They have the authority to edit or delete posts and lock, unlock, move, delete and split topics in the forum they moderate. Generally, moderators are present to prevent users from going off-topic or posting abusive or offensive material.

My second laugh for the day!
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Anonymous on July 27, 2009, 10:52:28 AM
hey that faq only applies to people who werent abused by the seed.  They are special and need to be able to post threats and ruin a forum and act like children.  It is the only way they can heal.  Forget about your opinion it is hurting there little bruised feewings and if you interfere you love art barker and libby too and also abuse children.  If you really disagree than you must be libby's husband or worse even the great libby herself!


lol@thisforum
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Anonymous on July 27, 2009, 06:22:52 PM
Quote from: "Guest"
Greg will never get it.  :wall:  :beat:  something tells me I may get stood up for this one. :roflmao:
                   I wrote this too Greg thebeer, lol, I did not know I  had to post my name, oh, duh, me, must be all my dumbness, lol, laughing my bum off really bad here.Greg please give it up, I told you there are 6 in my family, and you could never keep up. Oh did I mention I love my family.   Just not the seed way, ahahahaha, that could be me too, lol :roflmao:  :rose:  :roflmao:  :rose:  :roflmao:  :rose:  :bump:  do not look at the bump I just happen to love flowers, thanks to Antigen this place is still sane. :roflmao: LOVE YA GREG :moon:  :moon:  :moon:  :rose:  :peace:  I really do love the icons..... sigh...... :poison:  :poison:  :poison:  :poison:  ::unhappy::  ::unhappy::  ::unhappy::  ::unhappy::  ::unhappy::  :roflmao:
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Anonymous on July 27, 2009, 06:25:36 PM
:bump:  oh not the flowers   just like when i was a kid always following my brother around, sigh...... is that better greg  you can see it is  susan now right???? :rofl:  :roflmao:  :rofl:
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Anonymous on July 29, 2009, 08:23:45 AM
I read the old stuff, and think the new stuff rocks.....sigh...... :twofinger: Keep up good work on this forum its the best thing that has ever happened , thanks, about time the abusers get  a little Koollllllllll- aid, of their own. :rasta:
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Anonymous on July 29, 2009, 08:27:17 AM
Susan you nare so clever & witty none will ever know that your the guest.  Simply sneaky .  

Love Ya,
CindyLou
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: psy on July 30, 2009, 02:52:16 PM
Quote from: "Cyndeelouwho"
When it felt safe, I jumped in and maybe my words were biting and childish and vulgar, but like all of you "old timers", I was venting just as you did years before me.

Ya.  I think that's how it goes for most people and I don't think it's fair to shut people up just because they're angry and feel like expressing it in an "offensive" manner.  That seems awfully program like to me.  When I found this forum I felt it was a great relief to vent, even if it might have made some others feel uneasy.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: psy on July 30, 2009, 02:56:09 PM
Quote from: "susantoo"
here's my defintion of objective (which is what I was aiming for, so, thanks for recognizing it):

Not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased: an objective opinion.
In other words, not human.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Inculcated on July 30, 2009, 03:10:55 PM
Quote from: "psy"
Ya.  I think that's how it goes for most people and I don't think it's fair to shut people up just because they're angry and feel like expressing it in an "offensive" manner.  That seems awfully program like to me.  When I found this forum I felt it was a great relief to vent, even if it might have made some others feel uneasy.
I wonder. Is that understanding of personal expression going to be misinterpreted as a green light to continue to flood inanities?
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Anonymous on July 30, 2009, 03:13:08 PM
I know Barker was not human, I know that already, where do  all go from here??? How was your trip? I read you went on vacation.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: psy on July 30, 2009, 03:21:23 PM
Quote from: "GregFL"
Quote from: "Antigen"
Quote from: "susantoo"
Quote from: "psy"
Fair and open is subjective.  Fox calls itself "fair and balanced". It does not make it so.  The only truly fair discussion is one where nobody has any power over the words of others.  Sure it results in a fair bit of chaos, but there is also the guarantee that it is fair.  You might have been a benevolent monarch, but such a system is only as good as it's leader... and people shouldn't have to trust in a leader...  they should be able to trust in a system.  As it is a system exists that does not rely on a single person's benevolence or fairness where in a sense nobody and everybody is in charge.  Everybody has a fair shake at the discussion table including the "trolls" which is really a term for that which you personally find irrelevant, distracting, or otherwise offensive..

. Now, can you find any logical flaw in Psy's take?



I could spend quite a bit of time picking it apart, especially his gratuitis re-definition of  the geneally accepted meaning of "forum troll" to suit his point, but generally the implication is 1) don't trust a leader, moderation is subjective and isn't 'fair' 2) trust a system instead, see the objective results!

This neglects the fact that the system can be manipulated, in absense of a leader ie: moderator

But that's precisely the beauty I see in it.  Anybody can "manipulate" the system, influence the discussion, etc...  Everybody has a fair shake in that and nobody has a upper hand.  It's up to each individual reader to determine whether a person is a "troll", playing devils advocate, or talking to himself as you imply.  I like to think people on this forum have gotten pretty good at detecting that based on writing style, post timings, and other clues.  It doesn't exactly require a moderator and the mystery adds a certain intrigue to the discussion and attunes one's senses to bullshit.

Quote
by people who want the system to fail, thereby rendering the system a failure.  Example a) this forum in its current state.

OK.  So what is your definition of a forum as a success?  By the mere act of defining that you're influencing the dialogue in a direction you choose...  Instead of letting the people decide what is relevant and what is not you're implying they're not mature enough to do it for themselves.  Benevolent monarch, maybe, but a monarch nonetheless.

Quote
This neglects that if a forum wants an open discussion, and 100 people with opinion A pile on every new person with opinion B, that no constructive OPEN conversation will occur.

But opinions have changed and the zeitgeist of the forum does shift.  People with powerful opinions and arguments can influence others.  Example:  When I came to this forum nearly everybody viewed parents as intrinsically misguided and evil for sending their kids to program.  Over time, that has changed significantly as posters have been exposed to information regarding exactly how parents are fooled, how thought reform works, etc.  I'd like to think the forum as a whole learns, and I think that can only truly happen when nobody interferes with the "thought process"...  even with the best of intentions.  Sure, it can be harsh, but i you can wade through the BS, there are a lot of gems on this forum an a lot of real discussion.

I was thinking in the car today.  I find it sad that so many people no longer seem able to absorb and process unfiltered information on their own...  they want some moderator to filter it into an easily digestible piece of text.  well...  there is nothing about this industry that is easily digestible and I think filtering out the muck takes the authenticity out of the discussion.  As it is, i feel this is a pure snapshot of the troubled teen industry with all the crazy and fallout preserved on both sides.  Sure it's not for everybody, but i feel it's an important lesson to re-learn how to look at everything as a whole and meditate on it without having some sort of babysitter.  Even the crazy, even the trolls, have meaning if you reflect on it.  You might not see it and it might be direct, but those posts are in some way a result of this industry, and without that, the snapshot would be doctored and the warts airbrushed off.


Quote
Moderating forums is tricky and can result in even worse results than an unmoderated forum if the forum leader is not benevolent and unbaised in his/her moderation.  In addition it is mostly less than thankless. you open yourself up to attacks continually deal with spam and idiots, and of course the pay is atrocious.  The net is swamped with examples of bad forums.  Forum moderation with rules that apply to everyone in my opinion yield the best results, especially when you want open conversation from all sides of a discussion.  The forum now obviously isn't looking for that and shouts down contrary opinions. It seems like you guys want a anti-program party and not a discussion, and that is fine.

If that were the case, why not moderate the forum to delete any mention of anything remotely pro-program...  and nobody would ever know?  If the majority of posters here are anti-program that merely reflects the majority opinion.  Sometimes the minority is "shouted down", yes, but there is nothing stopping a minority opinion from sticking it out and influencing the majority.  It's happened before.

Quote
Just please  if you have the time archive the forum at the point I left, and rename the new forum "I  hate the seed and dare you to come in here".   That would be more honest.

No, it it would not be honest since anybody can post anything here... positive or negative.  The only reason the anti-seed posts are more prevalent at the moment seems to be because somebody new is here who is angry.  That happens.  If you feel so strongly about it, why not bump some old threads you really like and continue other discussion.  Maybe the person currently posting hasn't read those and might find it cathartic or somehow healing.  You get more with honey...  Or to use a video game analogy: use way of the open palm rather than the closed fist.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: psy on July 30, 2009, 03:23:02 PM
Quote from: "::nouvellefille"
I know Barker was not human, I know that already, where do  all go from here??? How was your trip? I read you went on vacation.
The trip was fantastic, thanks!  I'll probably post some photos later in the CAN forum.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: GregFL on July 30, 2009, 03:24:44 PM
Quote from: "psy"
Quote from: "susantoo"
here's my defintion of objective (which is what I was aiming for, so, thanks for recognizing it):

Not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased: an objective opinion.
In other words, not human.


To view anything objectively requires a human, Psy.  If we are talking about conversations (not concrete objects) without a sensient being to make a determination objectivity cannot exist.  It is a concept, and concepts don't exist outside of a mind to determine (subjectively) whether or not a conversation is objective or not.  The philosophical definition of objective (this is afterall what we are talking about) generally speaking is  "Independent of anyone's personal viewpoint."

Does an objective conversation flow from an unmoderated forum, one  where people who understand computers better can gain the upper hand?  Where people who will visciouly attack others can scare away those that don't?  Where the majority can rule by bullying tactics?

Does an objective conversation flow from a moderated forum where rules of conduct are established and applied evenly to everyone?

The answer is no, not in either case.  Subjectivity always creeps in.  The question then is which system allows for a greater likelyhood of a (mostly) fair conversation?


This is a matter of opinion that Ginger and I have disagreed over for years.  As a former ADMIN of fornits (the guy who used to do the thankless job you do now) I know first hand how hard it is to just control spam, let alone moderate a conversation.  For you to claim the unmoderated fornits site yields objectively fair conversations is beyond subjective, it is naive and would only be an opinion of someone filtering these conversations thru their own bias.  Fornits has always been populated by a group of somewhat angry people placed in abusive programs that pile on and personally attack  anyone who comes in with a contrary viewpoint.  Understandable or not,  that undermines immediately any hope of an objective conversation unless someone institutes rules to stop it and applies them across the board. This is extremely difficult as I will attest to.

I understand philosophically why Ginger wants an unmoderated forum, just please stop calling it objective.  That is beyond silly.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Anonymous on July 30, 2009, 03:29:13 PM
Cool, nice meeting you I am new, I bet it seems you were gone forever, lol, question, because I am new, are you a Barker fan, and either way, I will still love to see the pictures, glad someone is doing something fun with their lives, and hope you had a good time.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: GregFL on July 30, 2009, 03:47:21 PM
Quote from: "psy"

OK.  So what is your definition of a forum as a success?
 

The prior forum.


Quote

  Example:  When I came to this forum nearly everybody viewed parents as intrinsically misguided and evil for sending their kids to program.  Over time, that has changed significantly as posters have been exposed to information regarding exactly how parents are fooled, how thought reform works, et

Your contributions notwithstanding, this is not true. As an example, 9 years ago we had a computer converance with a founder of the Straight and no one even suggested he was evil.  Misquided maybe, but hell they all were. There are still those today, some on this forum right now, who think they are evil people and somehow were immune to the processes.

 In addition,  we were exporing thought reform and how it works almost ten years ago.

Quote
 I'd like to think the forum as a whole learns, and I think that can only truly happen when nobody interferes with the "thought process"...  even with the best of intentions.  Sure, it can be harsh, but i you can wade through the BS, there are a lot of gems on this forum an a lot of real discussion.

And someone is always interfering with the thought process when people take the focus off the subject and start threatening others, insulting their families, and generally purposely ruining the conversation. You seem to imply purity of conversation exists when no rules of engagement are established.  You ignore the totality of human nature when you do so.

Also, sure you can wade thru the bullshit  if you can take the pain. Many people won't/can't and they leave the conversation. There is a growing list of them.  As trolls take their place, the forum becomes more unruly.  

Quote
I was thinking in the car today.  I find it sad that so many people no longer seem able to absorb and process unfiltered information on their own...  they want some moderator to filter it into an easily digestible piece of text.  well...  there is nothing about this industry that is easily digestible and I think filtering out the muck takes the authenticity out of the discussion.  As it is, i feel this is a pure snapshot of the troubled teen industry with all the crazy and fallout preserved on both sides.


You preface your sentences with "I feel".  We both have subjective opinions, no?


 
Quote




Quote
Just please  if you have the time archive the forum at the point I left, and rename the new forum "I  hate the seed and dare you to come in here".   That would be more honest.

No, it it would not be honest since anybody can post anything here... .


No, it would be more honest.  What you have now is a blended conversation.  Archiving the old moderated forum at the point it stopped being moderated and starting the new one from there would make it clear to all which conversation they were in.   This is unprecendented in Fornits history, and I understand the request would take some work, but I would appreciate it in light of the years I spent nurturing the former conversation.


And In conclusion I would like to say thank you Psy for being the admin of fornits.  You have brought a lot to the table and it is guys like you that will bring this topic forward. I don't have to always agree with you to respect you.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: GregFL on July 30, 2009, 03:49:27 PM
BTW, please excuse any formatting errors.  Something is wrong when the paragraph gets below a certain point it is very hard to see and type.  Is this some sort of bug?
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: psy on July 30, 2009, 03:52:40 PM
Quote from: "GregFL"
BTW, please excuse any formatting errors.  Something is wrong when the paragraph gets below a certain point it is very hard to see and type.  Is this some sort of bug?
I don't see any formatting errors.  It might be your browser. Which browser are you using?  Firefox 3.5.? here.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: psy on July 30, 2009, 03:56:41 PM
Quote from: "GregFL"
There are still those today, some on this forum right now, who think they are evil people and somehow were immune to the processes.
Sure there are, but you don't help those people to understand by shutting them up and say "you can't express that opinion".  You try to influence them through reason, information sharing, etc... and if they choose not to accept it, it's still a valid opinion.  Just because you and I might understand how staff were influenced and so forth doesn't mean that's necessarily the truth...  its' just our beliefs and others should be free to feel the staff were demon possessed if they so choose.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: GregFL on July 30, 2009, 03:59:08 PM
Let me try to convey this to you again Psy.   THAT NEVER HAPPENED.  This forum was NEVER moderated in that manner.  If someone said "all program parents were evil" that would be a topic of conversation.  If someone said "I am going to cut off your father's head and skull f*ck it", that would be moderated.

Tricky? yes. Perfect? No.

Better than this?  By a country mile.


In my subjective opinion.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: psy on July 30, 2009, 04:01:33 PM
Quote from: "GregFL"
You seem to imply purity of conversation exists when no rules of engagement are established.  You ignore the totality of human nature when you do so.
No.  I just have faith that people can make those sorts of decisions for themselves.  I have faith that those who are angry will eventually calm down, those who are industry trolls will eventually absorb some of the information, that forum regulars can learn to ignore the chaff on the forum, and that by learning all these things they'll be better, stronger, and wiser for it.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Anonymous on July 30, 2009, 04:07:27 PM
just sick of hearing Cunt ,people fucking animals that they train & killing people by way of cutting off their heads ect
or people jerking off behind desks.  Most of us are in our 40's and 50's it gets a little old and sickining.  It's not even in a humorous way.  It's just plain white trash talk, no matter how you look at it.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Anonymous on July 30, 2009, 04:10:53 PM
It was trash at 13 too, so suck up to it.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: psy on July 30, 2009, 04:12:02 PM
Quote from: "GregFL"
Where the majority can rule by bullying tactics?

"Rule" in this case would be deleting or modifying a person's words.  What you're referring to is simply the majority being louder, which is natural.  As I wrote in my longer post above, nothing at all prevents a minority opinion from becoming popular.  It seems as if you want to artificially balance the forum and interfere with the open commerce of ideas.  Sort of like socialist economics applied to a discussion...

Quote
Does an objective conversation flow from a moderated forum where rules of conduct are established and applied evenly to everyone?

The answer is no, not in either case.  Subjectivity always creeps in.  The question then is which system allows for a greater likelyhood of a (mostly) fair conversation?

Again, that depends on your definition of fair.  Is it artificially induced "play nice" "fair" or an adult version where people are free to make up their own minds as to whether they choose to continue in a discussion or not.  If they choose not to stick it out, their opinion will always remain minority.  That is their choice.  You seem to rather prop them up (by censoring others) and shield them from verbal "harm" when they choose not to help themselves.  You put the responsibility of protecting individual posters from verbal offense on the moderator.  I believe that adults should be able to decide for themselves what is pertaninant and skip past what they find offensive.  That, to me, is fair.

Quote
This is a matter of opinion that Ginger and I have disagreed over for years.  As a former ADMIN of fornits (the guy who used to do the thankless job you do now) I know first hand how hard it is to just control spam, let alone moderate a conversation.  For you to claim the unmoderated fornits site yields objectively fair conversations is beyond subjective, it is naive and would only be an opinion of someone filtering these conversations thru their own bais.

And that is natural as this is an emotional issue.  Why take the risk of choosing a human leader that can be contaminated with bias when you can leave the decision up to the individual.  That's liberty.  I had enough of people telling me what was ok to say and what was ok to read in program.  As it is there are no subjectively made decisions by any authority over who can say what.

Quote
Fornits has always been populated by a group of somewhat angry people placed in abusive programs that pile on and personally attack  anyone who comes in with a contrary viewpoint.  Understandable or not,  that undermines immediately any hope of an objective conversation unless someone institutes rules to stop it and applies them across the board. This is extremely difficult as I will attest to.

It seems as if you want to have a private discussion where we can invite the staff in for a nice little tea party.  After everything so many survivors have been through, do you really find it appropriate to tell them one more time they have to be polite to their tormentors?  I have to say I find that notion a tad bit offensive in itself.  They dished it out in program and if they can't take it back... fuck em.  Then that's their choice not to participate (and at least they have it... at least they can turn off the fucking screen which is not exactly an option in program).
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Anonymous on July 30, 2009, 04:16:29 PM
Susan Stone is that the way you talk to your grandkid also? And do you live in a single or double wide?
?
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: GregFL on July 30, 2009, 04:17:51 PM
Quote from: "psy"

It seems as if you want to have a private discussion where we can invite the staff in for a nice little tea party.  After everything so many survivors have been through, do you really find it appropriate to tell them one more time they have to be polite to their tormentors?  I have to say I find that notion a tad bit offensive in itself.  They dished it out in program and if they can't take it back... fuck em.  Then that's their choice not to participate (and at least they have it... at least they can turn off the fucking screen which is not exactly an option in program).


This is where we get a peek at your bais and why you really want an unmoderated forum.  There is no wish for a fair conversation just a format where you can stick it to your perceived tormentors.


That is fine Psy, just state your intentions and stop pretending this format yields an objective fair discussion.  My intention was never a tea party but rather an environment where people could discuss the topic in a manner they felt safe and provide as fair a conversation as I could.  I already knew what the unmoderated forum yielded.  Most of us left respecting each other, including people who spent their entire lives at the inner core of the cult and those felt most abused by the seed.   This has been a very good conversation by most accounts.

BTW, again, THIS FORUM WAS NEVER MODERATED FOR POLITENESS.   .  No one was allowed to threaten harm against others or post obscene material, rant obscenities and sling repeated insults at others.  There were many conversations that were anything but polite.  Gottake a peek in the archives.

My request still respecfully stands to seperate the prior forum from the unmoderated one.  Please discuss this with Ginger and let me know. Thank you in advance for your consideration.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Anonymous on July 30, 2009, 04:21:40 PM
he said no idiot :fuckoff:
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Anonymous on July 30, 2009, 04:27:53 PM
Stack come way from computer I need to pay my rent at house and buffalo is sick needs operation.  You bad boy stack.  Show me money I give some honey. No stack you no more pay by inch or by minute  I really need money.  Hey you wanted sexy teen asian wife now pay me or I find farang more handsum you.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: psy on July 30, 2009, 04:36:46 PM
Quote from: "GregFL"
BTW, again, THIS FORUM WAS NEVER MODERATED FOR POLITENESS.   .  No one was allowed to threaten harm against others or post obscene material, rant obscenities and sling repeated insults at others.
You have an odd definition of what is not politeness.  Those two sentence just made me scratch my head all over.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: GregFL on July 30, 2009, 04:45:45 PM
Maybe hanging around this verbal  sewer for so long is skewering your definitions and making you obfuscate the difference between polite and attack.

Maybe this will help

po∑lite    (p-lt) KEY  

ADJECTIVE:
po∑lit∑er , po∑lit∑est
Marked by or showing consideration for others, tact, and observance of accepted social usage.


at∑tack    (-tk) KEY  

VERB:
at∑tacked , at∑tack∑ing , at∑tacks
VERB:
tr.

To set upon with violent force.
To criticize strongly or in a hostile manner.

The forum had a strong threshold for definition of attack.  Someone could criticise strongly, for example, but not so much in  a hostile manner.  Politeness was never required but many offered it anyway.  


Again...perfect? No

Better than the rest of fornits  in my subjective opinion?   By a country mile.


As Ginger is fond of saying, your mileage may vary.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: psy on July 30, 2009, 05:04:39 PM
Quote from: "GregFL"
Quote from: "psy"

It seems as if you want to have a private discussion where we can invite the staff in for a nice little tea party.  After everything so many survivors have been through, do you really find it appropriate to tell them one more time they have to be polite to their tormentors?  I have to say I find that notion a tad bit offensive in itself.  They dished it out in program and if they can't take it back... fuck em.  Then that's their choice not to participate (and at least they have it... at least they can turn off the fucking screen which is not exactly an option in program).


This is where we get a peek at your bais and why you really want an unmoderated forum.  There is no wish for a fair conversation just a format where you can stick it to your perceived tormentors.

No.  It happens just as often in the other direction.  You're hardly pro program and yet you are attacked.  I've been personally attacked with all sorts of things on Fornits and elsewhere (http://http://michael-crawford.blogspot.com/).  So has Ginger, but we don't take it down.  Sometimes the weak get attacked and when that happens I see that happen try and stick up for them at the very least to keep the discussion going.  Just recently I convinced a program director to come on here and state his case.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=27962 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=27962)

I explained how Fornits was, what to expect, and so forth.  He understood Ginger's policies and their basis well, actually and although he found it stressful, it stuck through it, stated his case, and answered a lot of looming questions.  All in all I think it turned out well and a lot of questions were answered.  People can learn to adapt to an unmoderated environment.

Look. If you knew me better you'd know that there is no secret motivation behind my opinions on these policies.  I'd actually like it if more staff came on here, roughed it out, and stated their case, but it's not worth the cost of telling others they can't say something.  Survivors are verbally attacked severely sometimes and myself and Antigen will get PMs begging us to take something down and we have to say no.  It's the only way to be fair.  It's not an issue of picking sides.  Some leave, some stick around, some I talk to on chat and recommend a private survivor group or something.  Again you don't know me well enough of you're saying something like that.  I understand that most staff are recruited from within and indoctrinated and so forth... but they were still in a position of power over others and intentionally or not they did victimize others.  I think it does a disservice to those victims to tell them what they can or cannot say to their tormentors.  You can't force forgiveness.   It's too much like a program and once again puts the victims in a position where in a sense their tormentors have power over them, even if by proxy.  Sometimes the most healing thing, I think, is to be able to say whatever the hell you choose to those who once had power over you and get away with it... to not be silenced.

Quote
That is fine Psy, just state your intentions and stop pretending this format yields an objective fair discussion.  My intention was never a tea party but rather an environment where people could discuss the topic in a manner they felt safe and provide as fair a conversation as I could.  I already knew what the unmoderated forum yielded.  Most of us left respecting each other, including people who spent their entire lives at the inner core of the cult and those felt most abused by the seed.

Yes, but in a way that respect was artificially engineered.  Sometimes there has to be fighting words first to get the anger out or it will always be there.

Quote
My request still respecfully stands to seperate the prior forum from the unmoderated one.  Please discuss this with Ginger and let me know. Thank you in advance for your consideration.

I'll discuss it with her, but I can't say it'll be likely that your request will be granted.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: GregFL on July 30, 2009, 06:08:03 PM
Quote from: "psy"

Yes, but in a way that respect was artificially engineered.  

Not, it was earned by the particpants and the understanding that flowed from these pages.  You see, that forum had a way of weeding out the trolls.  The unmoderated forum has a way of weeding out people with no tolerance for trolls.  The end result is two different groups of people, with of course some overlap.

Quote
My request still respecfully stands to seperate the prior forum from the unmoderated one.  Please discuss this with Ginger and let me know. Thank you in advance for your consideration.

I'll discuss it with her, but I can't say it'll be likely that your request will be granted.[/quote]

Thanks, I appreciate the effort and the conversation.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Anonymous on July 30, 2009, 06:50:56 PM
Greg SHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, no one cares what you post....sigh..... :bump:  :flip:  :flip:  :rose:
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: FemanonFatal2.0 on August 02, 2009, 02:52:52 AM
Fornits is a clusterfuck.

I honestly can barely make any sense of it right now.

its a love hate relationship.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Anonymous on August 02, 2009, 03:22:31 AM
greg duh el

is a fucking cunt.

he's currently unavailable as he hyperventilates and tongue fucking his mom's asshole at the same time.

it took him years to master that somewhat special skill.

isn't that right greggy pooh.

am i right or am i right of center?
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: I'll kick your arse on April 20, 2012, 01:59:43 PM
Enash, have an Ebeer, on Stack, on yourself, all for one and one is all :cheers:
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: psy on April 23, 2013, 11:23:09 AM
bump

FWIW, GregFL was right.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: none-ya on April 23, 2013, 08:29:34 PM
Quote from: "GregFL"
This is Gregfl.  I originated this forum at the suggestion of Ginger many years ago.

I just am coming in to make a few comments.


This forum was conceptualized as a place where people could come and discuss this topic, this very divisional and controversial topic, in a manner that they could be heard.  It didn't matter what side of the issue they took, I provided a forum where people could discuss this topic safely. I deleted names, except the staff who allowed themselves to be named in the national media, and protected everyone else's identity the best I could due to the nature of the topic.   To this end no personal attacks were allowed  and for many years the forum thrived. We had escapees, staffers, graduates, and Barker insiders calling each other, talking out issues, and many people found peace and  understanding on these pages.

Several years ago my daughter became seriously ill and I abandoned moderating this forum.  For most the forum had kind of run its course and we old farts had resolved our issues and most of us had even come to respect each other no matter what side of the issue we were on. Most of us had  come to understand we were just children when this thing called the seed happened to us and that we no longer had to view it from the eyes of a child.  I had hoped the forum would continue without me  as kind of a resource for people who hadn't been fortunate enough to be around this forum in its formative and productive years. (to anyone concerned, my daughter is doing fantastic now!)

Unfortunately the forum is now being trolled by people with an agenda.  When a forum gets trolled, the 'goodness' gets lost, shouted down and buried under muck.  In this case, the debates, the resolution, the intellectual conversations, the ability to see where and why others think as they do, and  the coming to terms for many people is lost under juvenile anger, countless logins, profanity and nonsense.  

I offer no apology for this because I am not responsible for it.  If I still was, I wouldn't let it happen.   To anyone reading, please look at the prior condition of this forum as kind of a seperate discussion and I think you will find it enlightening and usefull.  To do this, you have to wade thru a proverbial bucket of crap for a glass of water, but the good things are still here.

If I was able I would shut it down and just archive the old pages.  I offer my support for those being attacked now and my assurance that if I was still moderating this forum it would not be occuring.

To all my friends still posting or reading, I wish you all well.



This is a rather truncated version of events. From talking to Greg, I know the story to be a little different. He quit moderating when psy and Ginger hung him out to dry. He was attacked personaly by stack jones repeatedly for not being anti seed enough. Because he "graduated" the program. He threatened Greg,he threatened his children, posted personal information.HELL, HE WAS THE ONE WHO STARTED THE WHOLE KKK THING YOU KNOW (kkkunt?)
That's a stackism.  Over and over again he attacked everybody here. Even those of us that hated the godamn seed.
For that he was never banned or even admonished for the wost behavior I've ever seen here. psy and Ginger did nothing
and Greg quit. The only decent (in my opinion) moderator this board has had. (thank you Seymore bros.)
Every body remember what it took before psy finally banned whooter? IT WAS ON A BET! And then psy encouraged people to create sockpuppet versions of whooter for people to fight with. I could go on but I don't wanna' sound like Matt.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: lonewolf on April 23, 2013, 10:07:18 PM
Finally some sanity....maybe hope after all...Greg was fair and open....I came too late to this site....All I had was all the previous post to go through...and I waded through a lot of crap to get some good discussions....Time will only tell, if it could be a place to trust again.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Sum-Ya on April 24, 2013, 10:44:47 AM
Quote from: "none-ya"
Quote from: "GregFL"
This is Gregfl.  I originated this forum at the suggestion of Ginger many years ago.

I just am coming in to make a few comments.


This forum was conceptualized as a place where people could come and discuss this topic, this very divisional and controversial topic, in a manner that they could be heard.  It didn't matter what side of the issue they took, I provided a forum where people could discuss this topic safely. I deleted names, except the staff who allowed themselves to be named in the national media, and protected everyone else's identity the best I could due to the nature of the topic.   To this end no personal attacks were allowed  and for many years the forum thrived. We had escapees, staffers, graduates, and Barker insiders calling each other, talking out issues, and many people found peace and  understanding on these pages.

Several years ago my daughter became seriously ill and I abandoned moderating this forum.  For most the forum had kind of run its course and we old farts had resolved our issues and most of us had even come to respect each other no matter what side of the issue we were on. Most of us had  come to understand we were just children when this thing called the seed happened to us and that we no longer had to view it from the eyes of a child.  I had hoped the forum would continue without me  as kind of a resource for people who hadn't been fortunate enough to be around this forum in its formative and productive years. (to anyone concerned, my daughter is doing fantastic now!)

Unfortunately the forum is now being trolled by people with an agenda.  When a forum gets trolled, the 'goodness' gets lost, shouted down and buried under muck.  In this case, the debates, the resolution, the intellectual conversations, the ability to see where and why others think as they do, and  the coming to terms for many people is lost under juvenile anger, countless logins, profanity and nonsense.  

I offer no apology for this because I am not responsible for it.  If I still was, I wouldn't let it happen.   To anyone reading, please look at the prior condition of this forum as kind of a seperate discussion and I think you will find it enlightening and usefull.  To do this, you have to wade thru a proverbial bucket of crap for a glass of water, but the good things are still here.

If I was able I would shut it down and just archive the old pages.  I offer my support for those being attacked now and my assurance that if I was still moderating this forum it would not be occuring.

To all my friends still posting or reading, I wish you all well.



This is a rather truncated version of events. From talking to Greg, I know the story to be a little different. He quit moderating when psy and Ginger hung him out to dry. He was attacked personaly by stack jones repeatedly for not being anti seed enough. Because he "graduated" the program. He threatened Greg,he threatened his children, posted personal information.HELL, HE WAS THE ONE WHO STARTED THE WHOLE KKK THING YOU KNOW (kkkunt?)
That's a stackism.  Over and over again he attacked everybody here. Even those of us that hated the godamn seed.
For that he was never banned or even admonished for the wost behavior I've ever seen here. psy and Ginger did nothing
and Greg quit. The only decent (in my opinion) moderator this board has had. (thank you Seymore bros.)
Every body remember what it took before psy finally banned whooter? IT WAS ON A BET! And then psy encouraged people to create sockpuppet versions of whooter for people to fight with. I could go on but I don't wanna' sound like Matt.

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=43930&start=105#p425752 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=43930&start=105#p425752) - fornits.com is registered to Kelly, now the big problems have been solved.  fornits was never going to change as long as this site was registered to Ginger.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: none-ya on April 24, 2013, 03:47:39 PM
Greg did a great job. All he got was shit on for his trouble.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: none-ya on April 26, 2013, 06:11:06 PM
Go back and read some of the last posts in the seed forum. It's the same trolls,and Wayne's sockpuppets. How about it  ONE ACCOUNT PER IP ADDRESS!!!
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: DannyB II on April 26, 2013, 08:12:58 PM
This Greg fella sounds like a real special guy. Man it would be great if we all could follow his lead. It seems a way people could heal together. Maybe you can continue Greg's legacy None Ya.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: none-ya on April 26, 2013, 08:38:04 PM
He's the reason I havn't outed my oldcommer. (Semi prominent figure) He also knew him. Greg and I were in the seed at the same time,but did not know each other. And as far as me being a voice of reason, that shows just how low the bar really is!
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Horatio. on April 27, 2013, 06:54:51 AM
Quote from: "none-ya"
He's the reason I havn't outed my oldcommer. (Semi prominent figure) He also knew him. Greg and I were in the seed at the same time,but did not know each other. And as far as me being a voice of reason, that shows just how low the bar really is!
Thank god for how high a bar we set for evidence of online claims.

And Kudos on the prominent member. When do we get to meet him?
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: DannyB II on April 27, 2013, 12:28:16 PM
Quote from: "none-ya"
He's the reason I havn't outed my oldcommer. (Semi prominent figure) He also knew him. Greg and I were in the seed at the same time,but did not know each other. And as far as me being a voice of reason, that shows just how low the bar really is!

 :rofl: Come on my old friend they smashed the mold when they made you.
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: lonewolf on May 02, 2013, 07:03:44 PM
Greg is a smart one for not showing up......he's a legend.....why ruin it....voice of reason disappears never to resurface...I wouldn't either....if I was him....how many of you actually went through the seed program or are you hear cause your bored with your forum....????????
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: Anonymous on May 04, 2013, 12:27:56 AM
It's a great loss that he's not here. The Seed, like Synanon, has become ancient history. Elan and Straight are old timer stoies--they'll be next. When you forget history, it repeats itself. This industry is doing its best to erase the history and is letting time do the rest.

I wish he would come back. Spoke to him a few times on the phone and would like to know more
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: none-ya on May 08, 2013, 04:07:38 PM
Quote from: "Wayne Kernochan"
It's a great loss that he's not here. The Seed, like Synanon, has become ancient history. Elan and Straight are old timer stoies--they'll be next. When you forget history, it repeats itself. This industry is doing its best to erase the history and is letting time do the rest.

I wish he would come back. Spoke to him a few times on the phone and would like to know more


whatever.....
Title: Re: This forum, Now and then
Post by: cleveland on February 12, 2015, 04:05:56 PM
Thank you, Greg. I am glad your daughter is better.

I am so so so glad you started this site, even though it's become a pretty toxic site in the past few years. Before that happened, I connected with a lot of past members, made piece with my own past, and learned so much from posting and reading others' posts. It was an amazing experience for me some years ago, I was very active. Now I check it rarely, but I am glad this posting was right at the top.