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Topics - GregFL

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The Seed Discussion Forum / Message to Thom
« on: June 05, 2002, 06:47:00 PM »
Thom, I started a new thread because the old one became way to personal between you and your sister. My last comment about that situation is I do hope you guys one day will come to some understanding.

I just want to reiterate that your postings are welcome here and your opinion, in my view, is valid. Perhaps you can find a way to contribute and work on your personal issues with your family in another venue.

We disagree on so much about the seed, but still share common experiences. Marc had asked you some questions about your experience in the last thread, and maybe you would be so kind as to answer them. Marc is right, and I share his interest on how people with similar backgrounds and intellect can come out of this experience with such a varied opinion of what happened, how one person can feel so uplifted while the next so violated, how one can feel like their childhood was saved and others feel it was stolen from them, and how others can shrug it off while it deeply bothers the next guy. I am interested in your comments about this.
Welcome once again, Thom.

The Seed Discussion Forum / requim for a dream
« on: June 04, 2002, 02:52:00 PM »
Anyone see the movie Requim for a dream? I saw it yesterday with my 19 year old son, and it got me thinking. First, the movie is about junkies. They sit around smoking dope, shooting heroin, dealing drugs, snorting coke,prostituting, all the while seeming like nice little kids. In the end, One of them has an infected arm amputated, another one ends up in jail, a third becomes a prostitute, and the fourth in a mental hospital.

The movie made me think about something. The result of their drug use is exactly what the program preached would happen to us. This is what our parents thought was going to happen, and they responded by locking us away in the Seedstraightkids, Inc.. Some of them really thought that we would end up this way and rightously believed that Art Barker et al was our savior.

So to my parents, I understand and forgive you. If I truly believed one of my wonderfull children were dying, I do not know to what lengths I would go to to save them, but I do know I would take a bullet for either one of them.

[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2002-06-04 11:53 ]

The Seed Discussion Forum / My Parents
« on: May 31, 2002, 10:51:00 AM »

The Seed Discussion Forum / The raps
« on: May 28, 2002, 10:45:00 AM »
Lets see

Guys rap
chicks rap
rules rap
three signs rap
7 steps rap
what god means to me rap (god is the group)
come down on you rap
sex rap
afternoon rap (general rambling about nothing)
night rap
love rap
old druggie ties rap
my life on the streets sucked rap
( i remember this one, if someone was ever stupid enough, and it happened, to stand up and say they had a good time at anything prior to coming in, the fucking world would come raining down on them)
Iwouldbe deadinsaneinjail without the seed rap
i just love everyone here rap
my parents don't understand this stuff rap
moral inventory rap
no talking behind peoples back rap
i did the following drugs while on the streets rap
imfuckingstarving,tired,scared,pissed off,I miss my mommy and I wanna go home rap. (just kidding)
dumb things I did on the streets rap
most of these "raps" were terrifying in the fact that they seemed so innocent, but i sat in fear, shimmering my little 14 year old but off, motivating and trying to hide, so scared that they would call on me and then start "coming down on me".

The Seed Discussion Forum / Lakewood High
« on: May 27, 2002, 11:20:00 PM »
Well, I am from Lakewood, as you know, and so is Scott (scott Free)  
Lakewood in 1973-74 has got to be the strangest place to ever go to high school. Our annual has a picture of a "Seed Loves you" license plate,  which we were all required to put in our car windows. There was no written rule, of course, but if you didn't..... Almost every page of the annual that year has seed kids, there were so many...  We all wore our Seed shirts to school,had identical haircuts courtesy of the Seed Hacker-Barber, and all spoke the same shit and told each other out loud in public "I love you". The other kids called us robots, brainwashed, laughed and ridiculed us.  It sure didn't help my teenage self esteem any, having entered high school on the first day in a Seed T shirt..
Scott also recently sent me a copy of our Lakewood High Newspaper that had an article and interviews with people about the Seed. I remember that edition and had saved it for years. Thanks, Scott
Scott also told me that our Good Friend, Bennet Beverley, Hung himself after graduating the Seed. I don't know when or where, but I would love to find out the details. Anyone whom knows please post the story. Bennett was a gentle soul and it is tragic.
I was thinking about the 90% sucess rate claimed by Art Barker and then by straight. Of course, there is no long term study done or any documentation, and those of us that lived it know better, almost everyone I knew whom went thru that madhouse used drugs or alcohol or at least had a "Druggie attitude" later.  I wonder if they are counting Bennett and Dave Leverone and Chris Kelley as Successfull graduates still?  Dave died of a drug overdose and Chris had a one vehicle accident several years after graduating. Anyone know of other "Successfull graduates" that came to an untimely death or ended up in Jail?
What a farce....

The Seed Discussion Forum / Kudos! Thanks!
« on: May 27, 2002, 10:50:00 PM »
I feel the same way, and although several people are doing most of the work documenting and providing media outlets(ginger, Wes) this victory really belongs to all of us.  The only thing that gives credibility to what we are doing is not the volume of paper we stack up, but the sheer volume of survivors coming forward with the same story.  
This truly is a great american scandal, and the time is way past for the story to be told.

The Seed Discussion Forum / OUTRAGEOUS
« on: May 19, 2002, 11:18:00 PM »
I just heard on the news, that here in Pinellas County, in the land of Mel and Betty Sembler, Clearwater Central Catholic High School is insituting MANDATORY drug testing on all students. The first postitive test triggers MANDATORY TREATMENT.

the second test, mandatory expulsion

[ This Message was edited by: Somejoker on 2002-05-19 20:23 ]

The Seed Discussion Forum / my new email address
« on: May 18, 2002, 06:34:00 PM »
Hello everyone. My new email address is

My old email will no longer work at all. Anyone whom has emailed me in the last two days, please resubmit it.  Thanks


The Seed Discussion Forum / thought reform
« on: May 16, 2002, 09:55:00 AM »
Thought reform is not a new idea, and has been praticed on prisoners of war and by various cults thru out the world including the church of unification, the hari krishna
movement, Al queda, the church of scientology, and, of course, the seed.  Check this out below and post your comments;

Eight Conditions of Thought Reform
*as presented in "Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism" by Robert Jay Lifton, W.W. Norton & Co., Inc., 1963.

Milieu Control -
Purposeful limitation of all forms of communication with outside world. Environment control and the control of human communication. Not just communication between people but communication within people's minds to themselves.  

Mystical Manipulation
Potential convert is convinced of the higher purpose within the special group. Everyone is manipulating everyone, under the belief that it advances the "ultimate purpose." Experiences are engineered to appear to be spontaneous, when, in fact, they are contrived to have a deliberate effect. People mistakenly attribute their experiences to spiritual causes when, in fact, they are concocted by human beings.  
Confession  Only by pushing toward perfection, as the group views goodness, will the recruit be able to contribute. The environment demands that personal boundaries are destroyed and that every thought, feeling, or action that does not conform with the group's rules be confessed; little or no privacy.  

through Purity  Public confessional periods used to get members to verbalize and discuss their innermost fears & anxieties as well as past imperfections. The creation of a guilt and shame milieu by holding up standards of perfection that no human being can accomplish. People are punished and learn to punish themselves for not living up to the group's ideals.  

Aura of Sacred Science-  Idea that the cult's laws, rules and regulations are absolute and, therefore, to be followed automatically. The group's belief is that their dogma is absolutely scientific and morally true. No alternative viewpoint is allowed. No questions of the dogma are permitted.  

Loaded Language-  The invention of a new vocabulary, confusing well-known words with their own meanings, trite clichÈs. Controlling words help to control people's thoughts. A totalist group uses totalist language to make reality compressed into black or white using thought-terminating cliches.Non-members cannot simply comprehend what cult members are talking about. The words constrict rather than expand human understanding.  

Doctrine over Person-
Past experience and values invalid to new cult morality--value of individual insignificant compared to value of group. No matter what a person experiences, it is the belief of the dogma which is important. Group belief supersedes conscience and integrity.  

Dispensed Existence-
Elitist world view--sharp line drawn by cult between those who have been saved, chosen, etc. (cult members) and those who are lost, in the dark, etc., (the rest of the world). The group decides who has a right to exist and does not. Former members are seen as "weak, " "lost," and "the enemy". There is no other legitimate alternative to the group.

The Seed Discussion Forum / Where did Art Get this stuff?
« on: May 14, 2002, 07:16:00 PM »
Good question. Most of the techniques used by Art Barker in the Seed seemed to be a direct lift from the synanon,a California treatment for adult heroin addicts  that went haywire and turned into a bizzare cult, but to date a direct connection of Art and the synanon has not been made. The synanon used hauntingly familar techniques, and these techniques spread to other areas of the country like Daytop in New York, but Art Barker is credited with creating the first synanon type drug treatment facility for non addicted adolescents. Art's concept was easily copied and spread thruout the united states like the ebola virus. Today, it is unknown how many drug treatment facilities use Art's techniques, but many, many exist, perhaps one in your own backyard.

The synananon thought reform techniques used at the seed, and then at all subsequent copycat programs since such as the Straight, Kids, SAFE, etc, have a direct link somehow to Chinese and Koren thought reform. More than one person has smirked and rebuked this, but just a cursory examination of those techniques and you will see the corelation.

As an example, My good friend Wes dug this up.
"What is meant by backbiting, or criticizing behind one?s back? . . . Some comrades have something to say about other comrades, but they never speak out openly. They always TALK BEHIND ONES BACK . . . then this can be called criticizing behind one?s back, which is PROHIBITED by the Party."
From a captured Communist Chinese document  found in the book "Brainwashing in Red China, the Calculated Destruction of Men?s Minds"
 emp added

If anyone can recall the treatment center Art said he attended, please post. I have a vague memory of Art saying he was in a treatment center up north, and he used to say the name, but it escapes me.

The Seed Discussion Forum / just a thought
« on: May 11, 2002, 07:14:00 PM »
I have read my new friends debi and Marc's posts below. the post traumatic stress that occurs for years and years- post seed seems to always involve a sense of worthlessness,  distrust of others, and deep shame for submitting to the cultism that indeed is the seed. We  sat there and secretly admired those whom would not submit and burned shame deep into our innermost secret places for not being strong enough to resist, for not being brave enough to leave, for being to scared to vocalize the truth, and for not being noble enough to stand up and make them stop when they were sexually humiliating some child in front of us or slamming some kid to the conrete whom was brave enough to try and run from the insanity. Then we sat there and sang with the most genuine smile we could muster love songs to our captors and tried to believe the lies we told  ourselves so we would not lose our sanity.  Once we left and started openly rejecting the Cult, something inside continued to tell us we were worthless and useless people. This awfull self-depreciating destructive cycle was further aggravated by the loss of our still cult believing families for finally taking a stand.  Our childhoods were savagely yanked from underneath us and we were forced to deal with the lasting impressions of techniques formerly only practiced on adult prisoners of war in far away countries like Korea and China.
 Tragically, many people never recovered and dear Friends like Dave leverone, Chris, and others not named or unknown never survived into adulthood. Other's decades later still carry the scars and shame, and the legacy of the seed continues today in programs like Safe, Pathways, and scores of other copycat programs.

I want to redirect this errant shame we all took with us back to where it really belongs, to the perpetrators of this great american fraud that the synanon bestowed on Art whom then bestowed on us and all generations since.  Shame on you libby,Art, Shelly, Susie, and the rest of our childhood tormentors.

The Seed Discussion Forum / The picture has dissapeared
« on: May 11, 2002, 04:29:00 PM »
The link to the canine companion article that showed Art, Libby, and Shelly donating dirty money to the dogs now no longer shows the picture. I went into their archives and all mention of the teenage torture dog dollars has dissapeared? I wonder if this was at the request of the Barker's?  Curious indeed.
Did anyone have the presence of mind to save the pic and article?

Hello everyone. I just got back from Costa Rica yesterday. What a great place to vacation.

Anyway, on my way out in Tampa airport, my friend and I were in line at the ticket booth when the man in front of us got disoriented and started stumbling around. I grabbed his arm and asked him if he was ok, and he couldn't coherently respond. I calmy asked a nearby attendent to get an ambulance and laid him down on the floor and started monitoring his breathing, which was stable, but he was now not conscious.
All of a sudden, a man about 25 walks up briskly, takes off his shirt,underneath was a bright yellow shirt emblazzoned with "VOLUNTEER MINISTER" on the front and back, and he confidently removes everyone from around the disabled man. He then squatted over him and told everyone to be quiet, and proceeded to start poking him all over asking, can you feel this, can you feel this, etc, seemingly randomly poking him all over his body while squatting over him, his big ass almost in the guy's face.  The guy started coming to about this time, shook off the cobwebs, a wheelchair arrived, and he decided not to take an ambulance. It was about now that I noticed on the sleeve of the "minister" the words "Church of Scientology" in small print, and I said out loud, "Hey, this guy has no medical training, he is in the cult scientology"
Someone from the airport security asked him if he was a paramedic and he said no, they asked him if he had medical training and he said no. Someone else asked him what happened, and he said "the man fainted"  I blurted "he did not, I was right there" and he said, "I guess your right".  He then started trying to pass out scientology pamphlets and most people just looked at him funny. We last saw him as we boarded our plane walking up to people passing out scientology stuff. My friend whom has no background in cults, thought the whole thing totally weird and made fun of him for at least three days.

Just thought I would share.

The Seed Discussion Forum / Old post from The Gulag website
« on: January 03, 2002, 04:59:00 PM »
I found this post elsewhere on the web. It sounds very familiar, all except that last part which I doubt is true:

I was abducted by The Seed in Miami Fla. when I was 15. My parents gave custody over to them, I was removed from school & turned into a 'good kid' & remained 'good' until I turned 18.

My parents friends had a daughter who I'd met once. She told them she "knew" I was on drugs & that The Seed could help me. I was using drugs but IMO [in my opinion] was not outta control. I had a part time job at the time that my dad used to drive me to. He told me one day that he had to pick up a couple people to drive up there.

He stopped at a house & picked up these two HUGE guys, & they both got into the back seat with me, one on either side, me in the middle. It was at that point that my dad told me there was a change of plans. They took me to a Blimp Hanger (Goodyear) where this Org. had been donated space. It had about 1000 kids in it on metal folding chairs. Boys on one side, girls on the other. They talked to us 12 hours a day, made us sit in these chairs the whole time, with no bathrooms.

They gave us PB&J & bug-juice (peanut butter and jelly and watered-down kool-aid) for breakfast, lunch & dinner. I was put into a foster-home with about 12 other boys. The foster-folks kept us up for more hours, talking to us. I ran away the 2nd day & was captured by the foster-folks, They grabbed me in a public place & nobody did nothin' to stop 'um. It was at this point that I became VERY untrusting of ANYBODY!

I acted very sorry for running, had my hair cut short that day & 'became' one of them to survive. I was allowed to go back to school after about 3 weeks. I was forbidden from speaking to my old friends except to say, "I love you, or The Seed loves you." I was watched very closely by everyone...there were about 16 other 'seedlings' in my school. We talked very little. It was impossible to confide in any of them because we didn't know who was a spy.

I "graduated" after 5 mos & 8 days. I stayed straight until I turned 18, then became an alcoholic. I kicked booze at 20 & started shooting drugs.., never did BEFORE the Seed! I kicked coke & heroin at 24. -- The Seed was closed down because the owner was busted for selling cocaine.

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