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Topics - GregFL

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Straight, Inc. and Derivatives / your first concert
« on: June 10, 2004, 10:36:00 AM »
The video of the rockers in the other thread gave me an idea for a new thread.

Post your experience at your first rock concert. When was it? What band? Drugs? good or bad experience?

Where is the former national director of Straight today and how does this relate to society at large?

Thanks WES for the link and as always, the excellent research.

[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-06-02 09:04 ]

A former Spokesperson for Straight, Inc...Joy Margolis, was or is employed at this children's private gulag in Ft Lauderdale Florda run by the Luthern Services of Florida....

Check this out.


Worker who watched boy hang convicted of neglect
The counselor faces up to five years in prison after snapping photos as a teen dangled from a belt at a care center.
By Associated Press
Published March 19, 2004


FORT LAUDERDALE - A jury on Wednesday convicted a youth care worker of child neglect for letting a 15-year-old boy hang from a belt looped around his neck at a shelter for troubled teens as she took pictures of him during the suicide attempt.

Anthony Dumas was still breathing as Sandra Trotter, 41, snapped the Polaroid photos.

Dumas lapsed into a coma after the June 2000 incident at the Lippman Family Center and died four months later.

Trotter, who was a counselor at the center, faces a sentence ranging from probation to five years in prison.

She will be sentenced March 27.

Two other employees were suspended over the incident.

Lutheran Services Florida, a Tampa-based nonprofit organization, runs the 20-bed center under a contract with the state Department of Juvenile Justice.

Assistant State Attorney Dennis Siegel told jurors Trotter could have tried to get the 110-pound boy down by lifting him up a foot to place him on a bunk and relieve the pressure on his neck.

"Four pictures of a hanging, unconscious child - she was able to do that, but she didn't lift that child one foot up," he said.

Siegel said Trotter gave varying excuses to justify her actions.

Trotter testified Wednesday that her supervisor ordered her not to touch the boy, but that she did try to loosen the belt.

She said she took the photos to show the position of the boy's body "for Lippman or whatever purpose they could be used for."

A judge had ordered Dumas into the center 19 days earlier, after he was arrested for shoving his mother.

State records indicate he told a counselor within hours of his arrival that he planned to hang himself.

"Justice was served," Dumas' mother, Shirley Finley, said. " ... I think it's been the hardest thing a parent can go through."

The family has a lawsuit pending against the Department of Juvenile Justice.

Finley reached a confidential, out-of-court settlement with Lutheran Services.

[Last modified March 19, 2004, 01:20:38]

Daytop Village / late 60s early 70s anyone remember Art Barker? Cliff?
« on: March 11, 2004, 03:39:00 AM »
Can anyone link Art Barker to Daytop circa 60s? How about a guy named Cliff?


The Seed Discussion Forum / Art Barker likely never at Synanon
« on: February 29, 2004, 10:19:00 PM »
i have good reason to believe Art Barker never spent time at Synanon.  All I can say right now is this is the result of intensive personal research.

However, Art Barker claimed in the press "13 years of interest in juvenile drug prevention" back when the Seed had only been around 2 years, and there was decidedly synanon style "treatment" At the seed in addition to the warped AA idelogoy.

I remember Cliff saying he knew Art in New York when they were at _________ treatment center. There were already several Synanon spinnoff treatment centers in the region and I believe Art must have done a stint there or at the very least one of his early insiders did and brought the techniques with him. In addition, there are reports that Art had a personal fascination with "hitler youth", but the fascination was the mobilizing of the kids, not the nazi overtones. Art was fond of calling it the "seed army".

Anyone else remember?  The memory is old and I need independent confirmation. I really need help in confirming where Art learned these synanon techniques.


[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-02-29 19:20 ]

The Seed Discussion Forum / DOES ANYONE?
« on: February 21, 2004, 09:40:00 PM »
Have a copy of the old Tape "A seed of Hope". This video was produced for channel 4 in south florida and distributed throut florida.

Anyone else remember seeing it?

My father made us watch it 5 months before putting us in. I tried to leave the room and he screamed at me and made me watch it.

Straight, Inc. and Derivatives / the war on drugs
« on: December 13, 2003, 07:33:00 PM »
MSNBC, right now. Jesse ventura's america.  Damn..this guy sounds just like Ginger and I....

In any civilized society, it is every citizen's responsibility to obey just laws.  But at the same time, it is every citizen's responsibility to disobey unjust laws.
--Martin Luther King

Straight, Inc. and Derivatives / Please take this back to the Elan Forum
« on: December 09, 2003, 11:18:00 AM »
Okay, I am going to say a few words and then butt out.  There are those of us here that have watched the fornits site grow out of 6 or 7 people into what it is today. It is special to us, it has meaning, and we have watched countless people stare down their childhood demons here. In its current state of kaos, this is now impossible and one would have to wonder if those responsible have gotten what they wanted, a disrupted forum that is not productive anymore.

The Elan site has always been kind of the bastard child of Fornits, where adult children romped and took viscious shots at each other. That was okay because it was there.

Now it is here, and Straight forum members are participating and thereby trashing up this site as well.

If you guys want to have a flame war, flame away...please just take it back to the Elan site. Lets think for a minute about what the purpose of this site is and show some respect to the people who have worked so hard to provide this free and valuable service.  

It is very easy to have a negative presence but takes some thought and humanity to be a positive influence here. I would hope some of you would think about your words and actions over the past week and find something better to do with your time than to spread visciousness and negativity around this very special website.

If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my child may have peace.
--Thomas Paine

The Seed Discussion Forum / Other quotes from insane times
« on: November 17, 2003, 09:30:00 AM »
"my first reaction was awe. I actually was spellbound. After that first open meeting, my wife and I did not speak during the trip home. Our thoughts were so taken up in what we had witnessed. Some people call it brainwashing. If that's what it is, then give it to me".

A seed parent being interviewed by Staff writer Judy MckNight, St Pete Times, Circa 3/73.

No laws, however stringent, can make the idle industrious, the thriftless provident, or the drunken sober
--Samuel Stiles

The Seed Discussion Forum / rantings of a meglomaniac
« on: November 13, 2003, 02:11:00 PM »
"I don't mean to just stop with a Seed in Pinellas. That might be the community which would be the right place for another dream I have.  I can see a university type of complex with young people trained there who have come from all over the country to take the program back to their own communities.  After Pinellas, we'll be getting a Seed going in Jacksonville. Then there will be no Flordia area uncovered....I see Seeds all over the country"

Art Barker to The now defunct Evening Independent 2-1-73 prior to the opening of the St Pete Seed.  The paper initially supported The Seed and had a Seed parent writing pro-seed articles. Eventually the Seed, amid controversy over brainwashing and a kipnapping at a local school by Seed parents, lost favor with the newspaper.

If you think yourself too wise to involve
yourself in government, you will be governed
by those too foolish to govern.  

[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2003-11-15 06:31 ]

October 1973. I was 14, interned in the Seed St Pete wearhouse and having my young mind twisted and prodded and trying to survive in a world gone mad.

the prestigious journal SCIENCE was also busy....preparing a report about the seed.  Here are some excerpts for your pleasure.

Science, 10-73

"as it stands today, Seed headquarters is not unlike a fortress. A high fence surround the dowdy buildings. Outside, young male seedlings stand guard, checking the identifications and purposes of all those who wish to be admitted.."

"Members of the Dade county health planning council's drug abuse task force who wanted to see the Seed denied a license express deep-seated philosophical objections to Barker's program"

"Opposition was also expressed by Dr Ben Shepphard, the "grandfather" of florida's drug rehabilitation programs, and formerly a consulting physician at the Seed. He now believes the program is dangerous because it relies on "brainwashing" and should be closed. In his view, half of the applications accepted by the Seed would not be admitted by legitimate treatment centers."

"according to a state drug abuse office survey 17 percent of the seedlings have never used drugs of any kind and were admitted for resolution of "attitudinal" problems-relationship dificulties, school adaptiation problems and a lifestyle objectionable to parents"

"Shepphard and other professionals fear that confrontation therapy and "peer pressure group interaction" as practiced by the Seed may have long term ill effects on clients."

"some fear that those whom Barker calls "successes" may, in fact, have more serious problems than they did as drug experimenters."

"Helen Kloth, a guidance counselor....classes become divided into seedlings opposing non seedlings. Seedlings seem to have an informing system on each seems an accused seedling  has no chance to defend himself...he is presumed guilty."

"Dr Jeffrey Elenewski, a task force member and clinical psychologist who interviews and evaluates young drug abusers in the court system, claims that he hears every day of incidents in which children have been mistreated, threatened, and have suffered ill consequences pursuant to their involvement in the program.  Elenewski estimates that he has seen about 200 former Seed clients in the last 3 years, adolescents for whom the Seed has been psychologically destructive. "I see Barkers failures", says Elenewski, "the children who have attempted suicide after running from the Seed, those who are overwhelmed by feelings of worthlessness, hoplessness, and despair".

When a man you like switches from what he said a year ago, or four years ago, he is a broad-minded person who has courage enough to change his mind with changing conditions. When a man you don't like does it, he is a liar who has broken his promise.
-- FRANKLIN P.ADAMS (1861-1960).

The Seed Discussion Forum / totalism and the seed
« on: October 30, 2003, 09:08:00 PM »
Recently Ginger posted this in another synanon based forum. Those that have studied a bit about cults and mind control are familiar with Dr. Lifton's criteria for thought reform. This is for those that have not... notice how every category fits what we went thru in the seed without exception:

Dr. Robert J. Lifton's Criteria for Thought Reform

Return to North Korea / Tangled Web home
Any ideology -- that is, any set of emotionally-charged convictions about men and his relationship to the natural or supernatural world -- may be carried by its adherents in a totalistic direction. But this is most likely to occur with those ideologies which are most sweeping in their content and most ambitious or messianic in their claim, whether a religious or political organization. And where totalism exists, a religion, or a political movement becomes little more than an exclusive cult.

Here you will find a set of criteria, eight psychological themes against which any environment may be judged. In combination, they create an atmosphere which may temporarily energize or exhilarate, but which at the same time pose the gravest of human threats.

(a brief outline)

The most basic feature is the control of human communication within an environment If the control is extremely intense, it becomes internalized control -- an attempt to manage an individual's inner communication Control over all a person sees, hears, reads, writes (information control) creates conflicts in respect to individual autonomy Groups express this in several ways: Group process, isolation from other people, psychological pressure, geographical distance or unavailable transportation, sometimes physical pressure Often a sequence of events, such as seminars, lectures, group encounters, which become increasingly intense and increasingly isolated, making it extremely difficult-- both physically and psychologically--for one to leave Sets up a sense of antagonism with the outside world; it's "us against them" Closely connected to the process of individual change (of personality)

MYSTICAL MANIPULATION (Planned spontaneity)
Extensive personal manipulation Seeks to promote specific patterns of behavior and emotion in such a way that it appears to have arisen spontaneously from within the environment, while it actually has been orchestrated Totalist leaders claim to be agents chosen by God, history, or some supernatural force, to carry out the mystical imperative The "principles" (God-centered or otherwise) can be put forcibly and claimed exclusively, so that the cult and its beliefs become the only true path to salvation (or enlightenment) The individual then develops the psychology of the pawn, and participates actively in the manipulation of others The leader who becomes the center of the mystical manipulation (or the person in whose name it is done) can be sometimes more real than an abstract god and therefore attractive to cult members Legitimizes the deception used to recruit new members and/or raise funds, and the deception used on the "outside world"

The world becomes sharply divided into the pure and the impure, the absolutely good (the group/ideology) and the absolutely evil (everything outside the group) One must continually change or conform to the group "norm" Tendencies towards guilt and shame are used as emotional levers for the group's controlling and manipulative influences Once a person has experienced the totalist polarization of good/evil (black/white thinking), he has great difficulty in regaining a more balanced inner sensitivity to the complexities of human morality The radical separation of pure/impure is both within the environment (the group) and the individual Ties in with the process of confession -- one must confess when one is not conforming

Cultic confession is carried beyond its ordinary religious, legal and therapeutic expressions to the point of becoming a cult in itself Sessions in which one confesses to one's sin are accompanied by patterns of criticism and self-criticism, generally transpiring within small groups with an active and dynamic thrust toward personal change Is an act of symbolic self-surrender Makes it virtually impossible to attain a reasonable balance between worth and humility A person confessing to various sins of pre-cultic existence can both believe in those sins and be covering over other ideas and feelings that s/he is either unaware of or reluctant to discuss Often a person will confess to lesser sins while holding on to other secrets (often criticisms/questions/doubts about the group/leaders that may cause them not to advance to a leadership position) "The more I accuse myself, the more I have a right to judge you"

The totalist milieu maintains an aura of sacredness around its basic doctrine or ideology, holding it as an ultimate moral vision for the ordering of human existence Questioning or criticizing those basic assumptions is prohibited A reverence is demanded for the ideology/doctrine, the originators of the ideology/doctrine, the present bearers of the ideology/doctrine Offers considerable security to young people because it greatly simplifies the world and answers a contemporary need to combine a sacred set of dogmatic principles with a claim to a science embodying the truth about human behavior and human psychology

The language of the totalist environment is characterized by the thought-terminating cliche (thought-stoppers) Repetitiously centered on all-encompassing jargon "The language of non-thought" Words are given new meanings -- the outside world does not use the words or phrases in the same way -- it becomes a "group" word or phrase

Every issue in one's life can be reduced to a single set of principles that have an inner coherence to the point that one can claim the experience of truth and feel it The pattern of doctrine over person occurs when there is a conflict between what one feels oneself experiencing and what the doctrine or ideology says one should experience If one questions the beliefs of the group or the leaders of the group, one is made to feel that there is something inherently wrong with them to even question -- it is always "turned around" on them and the questioner/criticizer is questioned rather than the questions answered directly The underlying assumption is that doctrine/ideology is ultimately more valid, true and real than any aspect of actual human character or human experience and one must subject one's experience to that "truth" The experience of contradiction can be immediately associated with guilt One is made to feel that doubts are reflections of one's own evil When doubt arises, conflicts become intense

Since the group has an absolute or totalist vision of truth, those who are not in the group are bound up in evil, are not enlightened, are not saved, and do not have the right to exist "Being verses nothingness" Impediments to legitimate being must be pushed away or destroyed One outside the group may always receive their right of existence by joining the group Fear manipulation -- if one leaves this group, one leaves God or loses their transformation, for something bad will happen to them The group is the "elite", outsiders are "of the world", "evil", "unenlightened", etc.

Excerpted from: Thought Reform And The Psychology of Totalism, Chapter 22, (Chapel Hill, 1989) & The Future of Immortality, Chapter 155 (New York 1987).

Everything in moderation, including moderation.' target='_new'>Mark Twain

Counselor charged with abuse
The Eckerd Youth Camp staffer is fired after deputies say he assaulted two teens.
By JOY DAVIS-PLATT, Times Staff Writer
St. Petersburg Times
published August 28, 2003


A counselor at a Brooksville youth camp was arrested after allegedly assaulting two 16-year-old residents, authorities said.

Ernest Brown, 32, was reported to the Department of Children and Families last week by other counselors at the Eckerd Youth Camp at Camp E-How-Kee after they said he threw the resident to the ground, pinned his arms behind him and held him down with one knee.

"Our counselors go through extensive safety training to prepare them for their role," said Martha Chamberlain, director of corporate communications for Eckerd Youth Alternatives. "We take these things very seriously."

Brown did not return to the facility after he turned himself over to authorities Tuesday, but was fired from his job by telephone Wednesday, Chamberlain said.

After the first report was made, another client, also 16, told Hernando County sheriff deputies that Brown had recently assaulted him as well, throwing him to the ground and pinning him to the concrete. That incident, the report said, was witnessed by other residents, but no counselors.

Brown was charged with child abuse in both incidents.

Chamberlain said she knows of no other complaints against Brown during his yearlong employment at the camp, located south of Brooksville. The camp is home for nearly 60 boys ages 10 to 17 who live and learn at the facility.

"It was the staff at the camp who initiated these official complaints," Chamberlain said. "The system we have has worked the way it's supposed to. That kind of behavior will not be tolerated."

No serious injuries were reported in either of the incidents. Brown, who could not be reached for comment, was released on his own recognizance Wednesday from the Hernando County Jail. ... _wit.shtml

If we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them but to inform their discretion by education

--Thomas Jefferson

The Seed Discussion Forum / They knew, but they let it continue........
« on: August 08, 2003, 03:06:00 PM »
?In some instances they were locked in rooms by themselves and denied food for days. They also reported that they were made to sit in chairs without speaking while listening to others berate them for hours. . . I recently interviewed a child that would be diagnosed as an emotionally unstable personality with paranoid overtones. The use of the above noted practices with this kind of child could easily result in a precipitation of major mental disturbance. Fortunately this child was able to run from the Seed before very much damage had been done to her psychologically. She did manifest some confusion and paranoid ideation which she felt was a result of the manner in which she was treated by the Seed personnel. I have also interviewed children who made suicide attempts following their running from the Seed. Overwhelming feelings of worthlessness, hopelessness, and despair were in evidence.?

Letter from Jeffery J. Elenewski, Ph.D., clinical psychologist, The Children?s Psychiatric Center, Dade County, Florida to Mr. Alex Miller, Youth Coordinator, Florida State Drug Abuse Program, Miami which is included as part of the 1974 U.S. Senate report

There are not enough jails, not enough policemen, not enough courts to enforce a law not supported by the people.
-- HUBERT H. HUMPHREY, speech (1965)

The Seed Discussion Forum / The true power of the Seed
« on: July 16, 2003, 01:53:00 PM »
With the discussion going on in another thread, I thought maybe reposting what the Senate judiciary investigation had to say about the Seed way back when was appropriate.

"Other forms of behavior modification techniques employ intensive "encounter sessions" in which individuals are required to participate in group therapy discussions where intensive pressure is often placed on the individuals to accept the attitudes of the group... Once the individual is submissive, his personality can begin to be reformed around attitudes determined by the program director to be acceptable. Similar to the highly refined "brainwashing" techniques employed by the North Koreans in the early nineteen fifties, the method is used in the treatment of drug abusers... "The Seed", a drug abuse treatment program in Florida that, until recently, received funding from the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare, is based on a similar philosophy."
INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS AND THE FEDERAL ROLE IN BEHAVIOR MODIFICATION by the COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY, UNITED STATES SENATE, Subcommittee on Constitutional Rights, November, 1974, pp. 15 - 16 describing The Seed.

The power of the Seed wasn't found in "love" , "getting straight", or even in those silly stupid 7 steps, but instead was in a sinister brainwashing technique based on a cultic model. Don't Believe me? then believe the senate judiciary committee. And guess what people, your parents knew. Thats right... It was headlines blazened across newspapers in every town where the seed operated. Even conservative newspapers that initially supported the seed (like the now defunct St Pete independent) eventually got it and started hard reporting on what was occuring there. Art's ego couldn't take it and he started pulling in ranks and shrunk his cult up to a hard core group and stopped "treating" juveniles.

It wasn't the first nor the last time this model had been used, and Art Barker did not invent it, no matter what he told you. He only tweaked it and applied it to children.

Whether or not one person witnessed "violence" in the Seed really in my opinion misses the big picture, that it is grave violation of decency and basic human rights and just flat out wrong to lock a youngster up, restrict his/her movements, control his/her thoughts and bodily functions, and subject him/her to cultic brainwashing techniques all under the threat of jail or "court order". At least if you join other cults like Hari Krisna, moonies or scientology(using similar techniques), you usually do it  voluntarily and against your family wishes . The Seed did just the opposite, forced you to join their silly little cult and got your family to be against you.

It was a sick twisted idea that unfortunately was copied and resulted in what you see here, a forum where hundreds of people years and years later are still working thru problems that originated in their childhood in their respective Seed copycat program. Art Barker should be ashamed of what he started.

There is nothing so likely to produce peace as to be well prepared to meet the enemy.
--George Washington

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