Fornits

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An open discussion about the troubled parent industry

And 2 Cents - I must say I agree with you about the 14 yo's. Even while I was there, especially near the end, there were kids coming who were around 14 - like freshmen age. That was way too young for the program (my opinion). My feeling was that the parents, if they're sending off their 14 yo, what is wrong with you people? And they weren't  "bad kids" some of them. And I wonder: what was KNOWN about the school on the outside that that could happen, how was it pitched, how informed were parents - and educational couselors? Did they get kickbacks? I was "sent" there, at least in a round about way, on a recommendation by Precilla Blake, an "educational counselor" in Atlanta. I would be VERY surprised if she had EVER been there. I am almost positive she had NOT. That seems ethically wrong, at least questionable. Many people were sent by her, many, and to both CEDU schools. She probably earned a nice living, she and her cohort LB, for shipping kids there. I wonder - what was her reward? But the school should not have accepted many of the kids who came. That's just my feeling. I know people who finished the program and THEN had to go to a regular high school for a year, or two years. I just can't imagine how effed up that would have been. So I agree with you. Luckily, despite the fact I had a 10th grade education (almost - and no academics while there) I was able, due to a high SAT's (thanks in NO part to my education from ID) get into pretty much every place I applied - hell, I was even offered academic scholarships. That was true for several in my peergroup, but I believe it did tail off markedly later on. But the age thing, and the people accepted, that was just something that was hard to ignore. And I would certainly agree that it was a HUGE negative for the "program" - AND for those kids. I don't know where the hammer should fall on that, but on someone (Admissions, owner, Edu Counselors, Parents, etc). So several someones probably. There were exceptions though even to that - a girl in my peergroup for instance, very bright, 14 when she came, had only finished most of 8th grade before she got there, and went straight to college right out of the place - think she made a 1200 or so on the SAT and don't think she suffered at all due the lack of academics (nor did I, nor did MOST others I graduated with - that I kept up with anyway). In fact, when I was there I was under the impression that that was pretty much a prerequisite, that you had to be bright and/or academically prepared for college before you arrived -- but maybe not?). If that was the case it assuredly changed. Anyway, I've heard other people talk about the "poor" academics (understatement) but my math credits consisted of me and a dude from Orange County building a f**king hay feeder (it had angles in it). And I have no clue where my English credits came from. History credit came from (I suppose?) Ishi - or maybe the L&C Expedition? So perhaps it was some kind of greediness and bald money grab that followed the taking EVERYONE paradigm shift that ended up in the final analysis taking it all down, folding the joint up -- but I couldn't say other than that bit of speculation.        

And I meant I agree with the "hippies" comment, generally - as an aside - in a manner not necessarily relating to the general conversation - not as relates to therapy or any of that business ---- just as an overall comment.

2 cents - I will try and be as clear as I can about it, with the certain understanding that some had a different experience than I had (some bad and I will not deny that), but for me and for the vast majority of the people that I know and still speak to that went through the exact same thing that I did, it was not viewed as a torture chamber, gulag, prison, etc. And the people I talk to are largely happy and I would say more successful than most. While it is true that I did not voluntarily go there, and while it is true that I was yelled at and that I moved rocks up hills and down hills, and saw a lot of really "weird" things, I did not feel like I was in any way being tortured. In fact, I laughed while I was there, I had fun, I ate healthy and exercised, I made friendships that have lasted 25+ years, I learned things that I still find value in today. I also disagreed with many things however. I will grant you, it was not perfect, and as I've already stated I would not send my children there today (if it even still existed). But the fact is, when I see people like "Guest" (in particular) ranting about something that is in no way (not in the details or even in the most general sense) at all even remotely like the "program" that I went through I must say that it is a bit baffling. But 2 cents, I would agree with this, that many problems originated when people came to the program that were just not well suited for it - and I think the school is responsible for that, and the educational counselors are responsible for it, and I think the parents did a lackluster job in their "research".   But those type situations were not the rule while I was there. It may have become like that but it wasn't the case based on my personal experience.  
I've read some other things on this board over the past few days. TAC, psy (I believe it is?) - and I understand what they are saying, I see their side of it, I sense sincerity, I see a point. In fact, I would probably, if we sat down in a room and just talked, get along with them marvelously and vice versa. We would disagree on things certainly, but we could have a sensible debate on anything we disagreed about, and probably laugh at some of the more ridiculous stuff. But there are others who have taken up this sort of conspiratorial crusade and are just firing scattershot at every opinion or fact or story that doesn't jibe with their own preconceived notion. I KNEW Tim Brace. I knew DK-B, I went to CEDU first and split (no one tried to physically stop me by the way), was gone a week, went to RMA, was approximately the 30th student, lived on the campus at the same time Mel did. I did a fulltime, multiple work details, was placed on bans from virtually everyone, was "blown away", went through every propheet, 3 workshops (there was 1 additional ws my peergroup went through between the Values & Imagine - that was then discontinued). I saw many changes and trials and error and a large turnover in staff, and students (particularly early).
And then there are people like "Guest". Guest almost assuredly did NOT go to the place I went to. And yet he has a stronger opinion of it than I do - and his facts are wrong. BAD wrong in many instances. And yet "Guest" accused me of all sorts of crap and lying and gives people shameless advice and has appointed himself an authority on the subject - a subject he knows NOTHING about. Either he is lying, not who he says he is, or he NEVER went there and knows nothing about it - maybe other than some pieces of scrap he picked up here or there and is trying to make a bad quilt out of. All fabricated and simplified. And honestly, I am yet to decipher that brilliant work on "subjectivity" he composed for me. Dizzying stuff. (Off the subject a bit but I wonder if perhaps Guest isn't the "staff troll" - due to mistpealings and ynconsystuncies among other things? Well, actually, it would probably be beyond their capabilities - but if you really wanted to discredit somone's opinion you couldn't invent a better character to do it with than a guy like that.)    
Anyway, I will concede that perhaps the place changed, maybe it was COMPLETELY different after I left, maybe it became some terror gulag thought reform mind control place. But my feeling is that would have taken a lot more firepower than what they had when I was around. To a large extent the staff just weren't bright enough or capable enough or creative enough to pull that off. The ones who were (if there were any?) probably wouldn't want to. At least I would hope that would be the case?  
However I may seem here to people on the written page, I am not trying to bamboozle anyone - I am neither ugly nor dumb, I am not a great "follower", I am independent minded, a skeptic by nature, I am in a field completely unrelated to the "troubled teen industry". I am just some guy. And a parent. I have no agenda and no motivation other than the fact that over the weekend through some (perhaps fortuitous) turn of events, I found my way to this board. And I posted something solely based on the fact that one of the first things I read was from the friend of a parent asking for advice - and some "raving idiot" who had probably never even met any of the people being discussed flew off on some wild (and very unhelpful I would add) tangent about how Tim Brace was a child killing murderer and a death camp monster (paraphrased, but not far off). My next (and somewhat impulsive) act was to type a quick comment stating that from my experience that was just not the case.  
There are worse places than the one I went to. There are better ones I'm sure. I agree with many things people have posted, about secrecy and hypocricy, and I agree that it affected people differently, but if there is a thing that I am really incensed about its by the places that care more about a $ than the kid. There are lots of them.
As a parent, and perhaps something closer to me at this point, is the complete degeneracy and crap in our public  system. And I FULLY agree with TAC's comment on hippies -- just as an aside.

I did not intend to comment anymore on this board but 2c, maybe I can try and clarify some things. First of all, I am just some guy that happened to have the fortune and/or misfortune (depending?) of attending RMA for 2+ yrs in the early 80's. I obtained a college degree afterwards, but not in anything REMOTELY connected to psychology or counselling. I make my living in finance and in the equity markets which means that I am in absolutely no way qualified to make any kind of even a blind stab at some sort of curriculum design for "troubled kids". I can only tell you what I observed and what I went through, how it affected me, how it influenced friends who went through the same or similar experiences that I've had, and maybe my opinion which people will no doubt disagree with (here for sure).
Second of all, I AM a parent. I have 3 children. And the short answer is No, I would not send my kids to the place I went. I would hope not to have to even consider sending them anywhere. I cannot foresee or imagine a scenario where I would. I hope I am a good enough parent that they won't have the issues I had - with authority, decisions, etc etc etc.
Well, the last 2 questions are quite large ones - and loaded. The quickest way to answer is to group them together and say that in all fairness I did get things out of the program. Most people I know also got tools or benefits out of the program. The problem is that for some people, due to whatever reasons (but valid ones I would say), the process of getting there was too great of a stress and in the end outweighed the benefit. And I think this is true. It was inefficient to put it mildly. The problem is that if a parent was willing to pay, the school was going to take them, regardless! I don't know that but it would be interesting to see how many potential "wealthy" kids were turned down or denied becasue they didn't fit the program. If you could pay, you fit - that is my feeling. I have seen every kind of turnout too, I watched the documentary (some horror stories there for sure), I've seen some people get really messed up after. It CAN be very intense, too intense, particularly if things are taken personally (which happens, legitimately). And the staff were all over the map - some meant well, some were dumb as crap, some were clinically detached, some were Hannah Arendt-described clerks, some legitimately loved the kids and wanted them to improve - but there were some who were just too far overboard or such preening idealogues that they could see nothing but a rose colored picture, and some were in it just for the money or power or whatever. There was also some weird idolization elements of the director, past directors, Mel, J Lennon, etc. It wasn't a science -- not in the hiring process certainly, not in admissions - and that was obvious. And the program wasn't always uniform. And some of the kids, frankly, were ill equipped to deal with the intensity of it all - some of the stuff was probably just wrong. For some it failed miserably, no doubt. This is due to lots of things, to educational counselors, to uneven staff, to lack of common sense on the part of facillitators, to parents in many cases, to a blind faith in some "system", or what have you. On message boards like this it is often oversimplified but many were complicit: How did some 17 yr old kid end up being "blown away" by bearded men or hiding on the side of a mtn in the first place? So no, I certainly wouldn't have done it the way it was done. So how do you give someone the beneficial tools that some kids no doubt DID receive there without shredding up the rest of them in the process - I have no idea. Maybe you can't. If you had 100 people like me no one would have cried, no one would have copped out, no one would have bought into the program at all. So it sounds contradictory: Did I get something out of it? Yes. Do I know other people who did? Yes. Would I send my kids? No way. It's just not worth the risk. If you're naturally skeptical, have a sense of humor and don't get overly swept away by torrents of emotion then the place was no terror camp. Not to say I never felt any anxiety because I did, but I also figured I could handle anything the emotionally shaky guy in my dorm could. If you are not looking at it farther out, perhaps it was terrifying. So I don't really have an answer to that but I can tell you this: 2 weeks ago someone did call me about their daughter, 14, lots of trouble, out of control, etc, and asked for my advice, what I thought about sending her to some "boarding school". My answer was a question: "Does she have an aunt?" That probably sums up how I feel about these places in general. In my PARTICULAR case, I was not traumatized and am actually glad I went. This fact is in NO way an endorsement. I hope that this is at least somewhat clear to some of the more reasonable people on this board. And please, really, I am not in the mood to argue or name calling, and I am STILL not a staff member, I am NOT compensated in ANY way for typing this (not even by aunts), and I've already gotten the picture quite clearly that I MAY be some type of "subjective" moron so.... thanks for all the love in advance. -E

BP, I never witnessed anyone being restrained or restraints of any kind or staff restraining anyone physically. I never witnessed any physical abuse at all. I am not even going to comment on "emotional abuse" or open that can of worms on this board.  

There were "work details", "fulltimes" etc. If you are interested go to the documentary "Surviving Cedu" and watch the chapter on fulltimes - that pretty much sums it up.

And Guest: I get it, you're being facetious. So cool. Good for you, dude. I think you're sort of dull and uninteresting. How about that?

How would I know - I never went to Carlbrook. I never said I went to Carlbrook. I made a comment about Tim Brace, the Headmaster, someone I knew for 2 yrs 24 yrs ago. That is all. Guest would probably know though. He knows a lot of stuff. Hope this helps.

Guest, No one left anyone alone. I split, did fulltimes and wd's, had a rap named after me since I was the only one indicted for 3.5 hrs, I was on bans from all but 5 people my first Christmas, I was never a staff, do not talk to any staff, was never asked to be staff. I don't know if you're reading the same thing. Were you there? I would venture I know more about it from that time, and talk to more people than you do. There were people I knew and still know that thought it was the worst thing ever. They were and are friends of mine - and for the most part they were "responsible" while they were there, dorm heads and "look goods" and left on good terms. I went to Schweitzer ONCE. You may be missing my point - I thought much of it was quackery and UNfun. But not all of it. I talked to two friends of mine from that time last night, one who was kicked out. And funny that both of them looked back on it much the way I do. A screwed up program, a strange philosophy, but not a "bad" overall experience. I invest in the equity markets and comm exchanges for a living and if you think the RMA staff was somehow worse and/or more abusive, hypocritical or dishonest than the misinformers in the financial world then you are naive. If anything it is a microcosm, it's like life man. Yes, it was some screwed up stuff, but people did some screwed up stuff to get there too. There were staff I despised, that I thought were horrible. Specifically, above, I was speaking of one. Much depends on your perspective and the way you deal with it. Yes, I knew people who went there, good friends, who could not deal when they left and got even more screwed up. I also know a lot of very successful people. To throw a blanket over the whole thing and say everyone who went there had the same experience and were tortured and emotionally wrecked by the experience is ignorant soundbite generalization. Experience ran the gamut. Was it great and wonderful and perfect and smart? Probably not. I would have rather gone to the beach for the weekend or seen a T Waits show - but I didn't. I have friends who went there, same time I did, and we still talk, still see them on occasion.  I am not speaking for your experience there, if you even went there, I'm speaking of my experience. I suspect no one who knew me there or now would say I was a staff lackey or a troll or particularly that I was or am brainwashed. I suspect they'd say the opposite. My feeling is that you've read some posts or some article from someone else and have extrapolated that into some eaily disgestible formulaic little pill that you've swallowed. Did you even go there? And for the record, there were students there I didn't like either, not just the staff.  I realize there is at least a difference in opinion between people, there was then, there is now. Believe me, I have no agenda here. And patience? Is that your thing that you go off on anyone who sees things differently than you? Are you a zealot? I doubt my opinion is THAT far removed from TAC's - but at least we can be civil on the differences.

Pat was there when I arrived. Didn't care much for him or hang out with him. Seemed sort of a dumb guy. The name change thing is weird.

Mel didn't run any raps or propheets while I was there. Never. Never even sat in one. He ate in the Dining Room some. He watched people work from the porch. He had a brother, Al Wasserman, who came and stayed at the school for about 6 mos. He was friendlier and interesting and he and Mel didn't seem to get on that well - possibly for those reasons. Everybody sucked up to Mel, he mainly tried to act like some shadowy mysterious figure. He was pretty rude. He would occasionally come up to you and just say really off the wall stuff. He did do several General Meetings and he spoke briefly about the way we were about to do a big building project. The staff would occasionally attempt to "interpret" his off the wall remarks for us.  Mainly Dan Earle acted as his mouthpiece. He was not a very sociable cat. Big, fat, mustachioed. His wife was friendlier but if you were a kid you had the unmistakable impression that she was in some way defective for being married to that guy. She wore moo moo dresses and jewelry. It was odd to see jewelry then so it sticks with you. My impression was that he was not a very enlightened lifeform. This was the consensus among ALL of the students I spoke to.      

Rookey was the kitchen guy. He worked in the kitchen. He started going through raps I think right before I left. He had a moustache too it seems like. That was sort of trendy look I guess.

Tell me what you want to know and I'll see what I can remember.  I actually got to RMA before Tim Brace come to think of it.