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Messages - Sark

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1
The Troubled Teen Industry / Three Springs wilderness camps
« on: October 14, 2006, 09:16:45 PM »
In an interview with Dr. James Alexander, progenitor of functional family therapy (FFT), he states:

Quote
That is one of the things that a lot of people in our field don?t
tend to acknowledge. They tend to act as if they believe that
if we give parents a tool to be good parents, they are going
to be happy and just start adopting those tools. And even
when the kid changes, a lot of times the parent won?t
change, and the thing falls apart. A lot of treatment programs
that are residential experience this; they pull kids out of the
home environment and ?fix them? and then put them back in
the original environment. Then what they say is, ?You all
have to continue to do the right thing the way we did in residential
treatment.? But you know residential treatment has
people that are paid and trained to do things well."

Now isn't that interesting...that he doesn't bash the residential treatment program...but rather acknowledges they have people who are paid and trained to do things well.

He goes on to say...

Quote
Parents, in contrast, a lot of times have mental health or
other issues themselves...  And all of these things do not allow them
to continue the positive changes that, in fact, were made in
residential treatment, boot camp, or similar programs that
remove the youth from their natural environment but then
return them without changing the natural environment. In
contrast, evidence programs such as FFT and multisystemic
therapy deal directly with those natural environments.


Did he just acknowledge postive changes that, in fact, were made in residential treatment, boot camp, or similar programs?  Yes, he did.

How interesting that a person of such renowned reputation would actually admit there are positive changes that can and do occur in these programs.

And that's something proponents of FFT on this board have NEVER acknowledged.

http://http://tfj.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/14/3/306

2
The Troubled Teen Industry / Three Springs wilderness camps
« on: October 14, 2006, 08:28:33 PM »
The abuser was not someone we were trying to protect.  We did go after him.  Unfortunately, since he was also a minor the police said he'd get a slap on the wrist.

At the time she was not willing to testify against him.  After we learned more about the situation... we went back to the poilce again.  They said it would be her word against his.  I had telephone recordings.  They said it was inadmissable because he didn't know he was being recorded.

I am very disappointed in the laws and law enforcement's inability to assist.  I had to turn my attention to getting my daughter help, which consisted of intensive family therapy - as this was a family problem, not just her problem.  I believe I should take responsibility and do what I can to change laws to help protect kids from school peer abusers.

I'm not perfect.  I didn't throw in the towel and choose residential treatment.  We spent two years trying other alternatives.  We did our best to follow the advice of "professionals."

And I'm offended at your twisted thinking for believing I wanted this for my daughter!!!

In my opinion, the APA and the entire industry does not come out with a clear voice on this issue.  Just like what the poster said about some residential programs versus others.  Look, I did the best I knew how.  And I have not....ever....ever....ever stopped loving my daughter and telling her that I love her, and telling her that my love is not based on what she does or does not do in or out of therapy.  And that it doesn't matter what happened, what she did, or what she does in the future.  She is my daughter.  What I did was not to make my life easier... I'm trying to save her.  You can disagree with that.

And so I can sit on a board like this and get trashed by all you out there...  And that's supposed to help????

3
The Troubled Teen Industry / Three Springs wilderness camps
« on: October 14, 2006, 03:47:16 PM »
If the APA is totally opposed to residential treatment for adolescents then why was this residential program awarded the APA Gold Award?  In other words, are there settings where the APA acknowledges adolescent residential treatment?  If so, what are the guidelines as spelled out by the APA for those settings?  How would we use those guidelines to determine how the APA would view a program such as Three Springs?

2004 APA Gold Award: Using Dialectical Behavior Therapy to Help Troubled Adolescents Return Safely to Their Families and Communities

The Grove Street Adolescent Residence of The Bridge of Central Massachusetts, Inc.

4
The Troubled Teen Industry / Three Springs wilderness camps
« on: October 14, 2006, 10:08:07 AM »
Let me try to clarify my position... I am not advocating residential therapy as an ideal solution.  In my opinion, it is a last resort to be avoided if possible.  But I do feel it is an option in the continuum of care for some rare situations.

I am advocating trying to find solutions to avoid residential therapy, just like I believed we tried to do.  Especially if the greatest indicators are merely defiant behavior.  I was, however, convinced my child's safety was at great risk in her current environment, and that her life was in danger.

I'm not waving a banner for any program trying to get parents to send their kids to be fixed.  I believe in our situation the program has helped, rather than hurt.

If you feel you must campaign to close all the programs down - that can certainly be your position.  And if there are atrocities being committed, those must be exposed.  Get your cameras, or whatever you need, and publish them on the front page.

Question:  What are the keys to successful transitions from residential treatment?

5
The Troubled Teen Industry / Three Springs wilderness camps
« on: October 13, 2006, 04:25:45 PM »
DJ I messed up and posted as Guest...

And it was her therapist at home who assessed her recently...

6
The Troubled Teen Industry / Three Springs wilderness camps
« on: October 13, 2006, 02:23:30 PM »
It's not relevant.

Unless of course you're going to use it to call me brain dead, or otherwise paint a target on me and drop torpedoes on my head.

Who said BM doesn't work?   Hmmmmm  That's BS.

7
The Troubled Teen Industry / Three Springs wilderness camps
« on: October 13, 2006, 02:09:18 PM »
It's the thing we are "debating" about.  The whole NATSAP study and whether these programs are effective or not.

8
The Troubled Teen Industry / Three Springs wilderness camps
« on: October 13, 2006, 02:02:15 PM »
Residential

9
The Troubled Teen Industry / Three Springs wilderness camps
« on: October 13, 2006, 01:24:55 PM »
Of course this isn't a perfect world and of course pharmaceutical companies will misrepresent sometimes.  That's the point.

This world has more shades to it than black and white.  And if you want to polarize everything so there are no shades of gray - fine for you.

But don't write off other people's judgements as being obviously attributed to their being brain dead.  No, I don't believe (and I obviously don't stand alone) the evidence is so overwhelming.  It just isn't there.  The APA certainly hasn't come out with a statement opposing ALL residential programs.

By the way... just curious.  Do you think Albert Ellis and REBT is ineffective?

Yes, I think there is room to debate the issue both ways.  I think there are some pros and cons.  And in five years, I'm certain my opinion will be swayed one way or the other based on my experience - rather than a clinical study or anecdotal data.  The case study that will mean the most to me is mine.

DJ's post actually caused me to do more reading than any other post.

10
The Troubled Teen Industry / Three Springs wilderness camps
« on: October 13, 2006, 11:56:47 AM »
DJ... some good reading there.  Will take me a while to go through all of that.

It is a fact that NATSAP presented their study to the APA.  It's not like they are secretly trying to hide something.  Sure they have a financial interest.  Does that discount the findings completely and totally?  I don't think so.  But I would like the APA to take a position on it and debunk it if it's a piece of crap.  That's the appropriate way to discredit it, rather than taking pot shots on a forum like this.

When a pharmaceutical company presents clinical studies to the FDA, they likewise have a financial interest.  It seems to me sometimes this is the way the world works.

Even the APA states there is a place for the residential program in the continuum of care.  Unless I'm missing it, I can't see where they have boldly taken a stand against programs represented by NATSAP.

I do not see a prepondence of evidence that suggests what appears to be a one-sided argument by some here that ALL residential programs are "fucking kids up" in all cases and that NOTHING good has come from them in thirty years.  Nor do I see evidence which would suggest kids coming out of these programs are overwhelmingly and undeniably damaged by them.

I'm not opposed to treatment alternatives.  We sought many.  We were engaged in therapy and still are.  I believe we did and are following the ideals of what I see in PMT.  For us, I believe the residential program is working and producing positive results.

11
The Troubled Teen Industry / Three Springs wilderness camps
« on: October 13, 2006, 09:58:52 AM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
esarks, you didn't just fall off the turnip truck yesterday, did you? That so-called "study" is a paid advertisement for NATSAP programs. It's about as scientific as a used car dealer's "study" that says he has the best deals in town. I hope you are also aware that NATSAP is just a trade organization -- anyone can join simply by paying the membership dues.

-- A concerned parent


I would have referenced your study...but...oh...um...right...you don't have one.

Well...their's is published and this being the free country that it is...is open to scrutiny.

12
The Troubled Teen Industry / Three Springs wilderness camps
« on: October 13, 2006, 09:32:22 AM »
This paper presents the results from the first phase of a longitudinal, multi-center study of outcomes in private residential treatment.  It is the first known large-scale attempt at a systematic exploration of client characteristics, treatment outcomes, and discharge predictors in private residential treatment.  The sample of nearly 1000 adolescents, from nine private residential programs, was about equally likely to be male or female, from middle or upper socioeconomic backgrounds and predominately white.  Ninety-five percent had prior treatment and 85% were treated for multiple presenting problems, the most common of which were disruptive behavior, mood, and substance abuse problems.  Parents and adolescents reported significant improvement during treatment on adolescent communication, family relationships, and compliance.  Analyses of variance indicated that both adolescents and parents reported a significant reduction in problems from admission to discharge, on each aggregate measure psycho-social functioning (Total Problems Scores, Internalizing Scales, and Externalizing Scales of the Child Behavior CheckList, CBCL, and Youth Self-Report, YSR) and nearly every syndrome (15 of 16 YSR and CBCL Syndrome scales). Only two out of 22 treatment and non-treatment-related variables (Grade Point Average and Mood Disorder) interacted with outcomes.  Furthermore, in stepwise regression analyses, testing a wide array of treatment and non-treatment variables, only a handful of variables predicted discharge functioning.  Taken together, the analyses suggested that adolescent problems improve significantly during private residential treatment and that, with only a few exceptions, discharge functioning and in-treatment change are relatively similar, regardless of adolescent background, history, problems, and treatment factors.  Implications and research recommendations are presented.

http://http://natsap.org/Behrens.doc

13
The Troubled Teen Industry / Three Springs wilderness camps
« on: October 12, 2006, 05:37:05 PM »
Wow...that was a pretty weak come-back....

Hey...tell you what...I gotta go do some productive work so I can pay the be part of that majority who pays your fucking taxes so you can have roads to drive on, and schools for kids to go to, etc....

Geeez...  Go flip some more burgers...please.  I'll need a quick lunch tomorrow...

14
The Troubled Teen Industry / Three Springs wilderness camps
« on: October 12, 2006, 05:08:34 PM »
There are so many "broad stroke" accusations that have been said of me here that do not represent me.

It is that one-sided, unbalanced view (sure, in my opinion) and QUICK to judge bull-shit that tells me this forum is not a safe place.  I mean, come on...telling me I don't deserve to breath the same oxygen?  Enjoying giving someone enough rope to hang themselves?  That's crap...and you know it.

Your experiences are yours.  They've certainly molded you into who you are!!!  And I don't have to like it...but whatever.

My experiences, are, likewise MINE!  Deal with it!!!!!!!!!  Grow up!!!!!

And, I don't have to defend it to YOU!

You are polarized.  Narrow in your thinking.  And unable to accept there may actually be other "truths" which you cannot accept.

That's just as bad as some who claim the Moral Majority is a dangerous thing!  Hey...welcome to fucking democracy!!!!

15
The Troubled Teen Industry / Three Springs wilderness camps
« on: October 12, 2006, 04:47:46 PM »
No one gives a shit to the answers that are offered here.  Each person is standing in their own corner ready to throw punches at the other.

That's not engaging.  It's like watching cocks fight or dogs or whatever.  For the purpose of?  Drawing blood!  Because?  That's what you people enjoy watching.

This forum, from which I should remove myself - by the way - because who said so?  Was that Hitler also?  Oh geeeezzzzz.... Talk about control?  Talk about locking your mind up?   Talk about imprisonment?  Oh...I know...and I am the evil one....

Geezzz...I've been married longer than you all are old.  And I'm supposed to be impressed by your wisdom?

Sorry...don't buy it.

(Doing more work...whilst I await another reply to "Please" post my answers)....

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