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An open discussion about the troubled parent industry

GregFL,

Please re-read my earlier post.  I state that, no, the seed did not save my
life.  I am not, nor ever have been, much of a drug or alcohol user at
any time in my life.  Before the seed, after the seed.  Before going
to AA after going to AA.  Or now.

I remember being in AA, it really was somewhat embarrassing.  I made a
joke about my being there: Its like going to weight watchers when your
are really only 5 pounds over weight.  Being there, in AA was amazing.
To see people who had absolutely destroyed their whole lives with
alcohol.  To see them put it back together.  And me, being there, for
whatever little reason.  Really, I think I was lonely.  AA people
understand seed people.

I truly think I would *not* have a drug or alcohol problem with out
the seed or AA.  I still maintain that I just wanted a better life.  I
don't even like to use the word "recovery".  Recovery from what?

Funny, today, I drink a little, and one of my best friends is AA.  He
knows me, my whole history, we talk some times.  I hang out with the
AA people.  They know I drink a little.  No biggy.  Just good people,
real good people.  I've got another friend, severely alcoholic.  I've
talked to him about things.  He's content the way he is.  I'm a little
sorry for him, but not too much of a biggy either.

I've got another friend, he's Muslim.  Doesn't drink or anything.  But
he is very unhappy, not at ease with life at all.  Reminds me of the
"dry drunk" people talk about.

Its not about the drugs or alcohol, its that other thing, the dis-ease
with life.


-- John

The anonymous poster who mistook me (John_FtPierce) for John
Underwood, does have a very important point that I would like to
elaborate on.


... AA NEVER locks you up involuntarily, "come down on you" by your
"peers" and makes you publicly confess to your crimes and sins and ...


Yes, I know a lot about AA, in later life I spent 6 years there too.
Voluntarily.  No one made me, I went myself, sought out a meeting and
went.

While AA and NA (narcotics anonymous) puts up with some amount of
people being there due to court orders, I would say that they don't
particularly like it.  In my time with AA, people who were there from
the courts never lasted.

The main reason for going to AA is that one has reached their "own
personal low" point in life.  I would say that the belief within AA is
that you can not help someone until they reach that point.

I can remember people coming to AA, not having reached that point,
dropping out, and years later returning, to become life long strong
individuals.  I remember my "sponsor" talking to me about someone who
had dropped out.  Saying, that it was o.k., that they now know whats
at AA and that if they ever really need it, they know AA is there.  I
think that is true of the court ordered people too.  They come in, see
whats there, drop out.  And if they make it in life, great, otherwise
AA is there.

If I had a time machine, and could go back and changed one thing about
the seed, it would be this: people should have only have been there
*voluntarily*.  Not forced for any reason, parents, courts, whatever.
I think that the seed in the very earliest of day was like that.

Maybe my experience there was positive because I sensed this.  After
being there for a short while, the idea of being forced to do anything
was not part of it for me.  I was happy to be there.  I still don't
understand myself on this though.  I don't think I ever have hit "my
own personal low".  I certainly wasn't close to it when I went to the
seed.  And later, when I went to AA, I don't think is was even close
then either.  I was low then, but not that low.  The fact that I don't
have to get that low to know, I attribute to the seed.

Maybe I just see a better life due to my time in the seed.  I don't
consciously use the principles, the steps, the moral inventories, any
more.  Its more just a part of me now.  I do spend a lot of time
thinking about myself, and others.  Trying to understand.  A guess
that could be construed as a moral inventory, whatever.

I love life these days.  Even the bad parts.  I don't feel that I've
been to a gulag, brainwashed, or anything else.

I'm one of the freest thinkers I know.  Not bound by any of the usual
limitations: religion, prejudice, social pressures.  I look anyway I
want, dress anyway I want, keep any friends I want, do anything I want
to.  

I don't feel that drugs or drinking is necessarily the problem.
Sometimes they are a symptom, but not the problem.  Like my old AA
sponsor would say: "Alcoholism is not a disease of the mind but a
dis-ease of the mind.  If you are not at ease with yourself, you
drink."  Or smoke dope until you can't feel, or do harder stuff until
you can't feel.  I focus on this, not the drugs or alcohol.

Could it be that many of the people who are anti-seed want to do their
drugs?  I say, go ahead, do your drugs, drink.  If you are at ease
with yourself, it won't be a problem.  If you are not at ease, it
probably will become a problem.  Drugs and alcohol are not the
problem.  Its this other thing, the dis-ease, that is the problem.

I personally think that pot should be legalized.  Probably a lot of
other drugs too.  I withhold judgment on some, very additive, drugs
like cocaine/crack and crank.  These really are just too dangerous.
Heroin is bad news too.  I volunteered for many years in soup
kitchens, keeping my finger on the pulse of the street.  I saw just
too much badness from crack.  Crank is just now starting to hit my
area, but the initial reports from the street are real bad.

And again I would like to apologize to anyone who feels hurt from the
seed.  But, please, please, keep posting your feelings and
experiences.


-- John


[ This Message was edited by: John_FtPierce on 2005-08-06 19:30 ]

Thanks John for posting some good insights.

I've been meaning to say something here on Fornits for a couple of
years now, but haven't.  Don't know why, just didn't.  So with respect
to John's post, here I go.  Pardon me if this is a little rambling and
not the best of prose.

For me, my experience at The Seed was very positive, though I rarely
talk about it to people.  Overall I would say it changed me, made me
think very differently about myself and the world.  Its funny, but
what I remember the most about The Seed was the idealism John refers
to.  I think that is the main thing that the Seed changed in me.
Going to the seed was one of the defining times in my life, and I, for
one, am very grateful that *I* was lucky enough to go to The Seed.

I went in for a relatively minor offense.  No law involved, just
another Seed person told my parents I had smoked some dope.  I could
be mad about this.  Strangely enough, I never was mad, not mad that it
happened, not mad at the person who told, not mad at my parents, mad
at no one.  I don't know why.

I went to The Fort Pierce Seed.  Perhaps I was lucky here, because it
was relatively small, and maybe that idealism John refers to ran high
there.  The Fort Pierce Seed closed while I was still in the program.
I finished at the Fort Lauderdale Seed, which I never felt the same
about it as I did the Fort Pierce Seed.  Perhaps the size, those rules
John refers to, or perhaps just a strange emotion, but I liked the
Fort Pierce Seed.

Being at the seed was intense.  Very intense.  Perhaps too intense.  I
definitely can see many of the comments (complaints) that other have.

I was one of those people alluded to in some post as not having done
much in the way of drugs, I truly had only smoked dope a handful of
times.  I can remember the pressure that "surly I was much worse than
that".  However I just said what was true.  O.k. there was a fair
amount of pressure, because that was a standard ruse.  But people did
eventually believe me, I told no lies.

It was confusing there, it was intense, at times it was boring.  And I
was way too young, 17 going on 11.  (17 physical, 11 emotional)

I still have a hard time describing what happened there.  Maybe it was
one of those experiences "that you have to go through even if you
don't like it, but it will be good for you".  No, not quite.  While I
wouldn't say I had "fun" or that I liked it there, and at the time I
was too young to really understand, I knew it was the right thing.
When it came time for me to graduate, I did things to keep from
graduating.  I didn't want to leave.  But eventually I did.

I definitely left confused, some what scared, and still very young.
But I left with something that was very good, very positive and hard
to define.  I think a strange sense of idealism might describe it.

Yes, I learned a lot about what alcoholics anonymous really is, I
learned a lot about trivial stuff like the games people play, how
people lie, and why.  But I left with something more.  Maybe I saw
people for who they really are.  Really good people, everyone, really
good.

I remember it like it was just yesterday.  The people, the faces, what
everyone said.  All of it.

I know "seed screw ups".  I know people who do a lot of drugs since
going to the seed.  I know people who's life is a shamble after going
to the seed.  I know seed graduates that committed suicide.  But, I
know people who never went to the seed that do a lot of drugs.  And, I
know people who's life is a shamble that never set foot in the seed.
Also, I know people who committed suicide that never heard of the
seed.

Who am I today?  How did the seed determine me today?  Hard to say.
I've done more drugs since I went to the seed.  I drink.  I think
people would think of me as successful.  Three college degrees, good
job, married, two children.  I'm in love with my wife, she's in love
with me.  I'm also getting a divorce.  Does this make since?  No.
Neither does life.  The pursuit of happiness -- way too simple.  Its
all too complex.

Different people take different things with them as they pass through
life.  I can see where many of the other people are coming from in the
post on Fornits, I not saying they are wrong.  For them, and their
experiences, and who they are, they are right.  You put a different
person in a given situation, and they take different things from that
situation.  Your particular experience is not right for anyone but
you.

Yes, we *all* remember the The Seed, we all think of the seed. ...

I cried when I found from the web that the seed had closed, I always
wanted to go back for one last visit.  Perhaps thats why I come to
this forum, even the bad things said about the seed make me feel a
little better.

In closing, I would like to quote Bob Dylan: "I was so much older
then, I'm younger than that now".  For me (remember: "Talk about
yourself!"), the older I get the less I know is very true.  Its not as
clear or as simple as I use to think.

For everyone who went to The Seed, for better or worse, we are all
somehow bound together, having done something, shared in something,
that almost no one else has, bound by this thing call The Seed.


-- John


[ This Message was edited by: John_FtPierce on 2005-08-05 22:51 ][ This Message was edited by: John_FtPierce on 2005-08-05 22:56 ]