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Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Mission Mountain School => Topic started by: Anonymous on May 01, 2005, 09:18:00 PM

Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 01, 2005, 09:18:00 PM
Don't you all remember the time we graduated/ or left the school and promised each other that we would keep in touch? We promised that we would remain friends forever? Well it looks like most of us never kept our words, from what we said at MMS. We told each other we loved one another and cared for each other during group. We cried together when times were so rough, and even laughed together when times were tough. We saw each other everyday...we basically knew each others's deepest secrets. The greatest thing I ever learned there was what amazing girls we were all capable of becoming and what great friends I was capable of having.

Even though we cared for one another we were all trying to make it through--and we were willing to keep our mouth shuts even though we saw some  being treated unfairly. I know most of you who have recently posted about your great experinces at MMS, and I feel as though you are only looking in to your own stories. I could see in to your  eyes (during my stay) and I knew that you were scared. scared of getting in trouble, scared of being picked on, scared of being humiliated. You were my friends when I was hurting, and you said you would always be there. Where are you all now, friends? I did not receive a single letter in the mail...of those who promised to write to me. So if you were so honest while at the school how come there is no honesty now?

We do not care about each other as we should..as we pretended.
and if you do care LISTEN....listen to those who trully feel hurt. Why would someone bother to complain 5 years later? Why would they bother in saying anything at all...and not just move on? The hurt is still there..and its undeniable. help your friends. Don't try to post your positve experince over theirs, as a way to shut them up. We all need to be heard. I need people to hear me and listen because it still hurts. don't just say "deal with it, move on."  Don't keep on posting all your great experinces just to compete about it. There are underlying facts...and they can not be denied.

I am remaining anonimous because I feel there's hardly any support. Just to name a few aya, whitney, Rebecca, Jessica, I knew you all, and I do not think I know you anymore. I even saw many things that were done to you guys that were unfair, and now you say that it was great for the most part? What about some of us who you knew back then? Did you not care about everyone then?
If you had a good experince that is a great thing, but can you stop making it seem as though the rest of us are liars? I sat in group telling my story in detail-embarrased, ashamed, humiliated- and not wanting to, but being forced in order to keep everyone and myself out of trouble. I was acused by John as a major problem and I sat there while he told me what a "manipulative little shit I was" and he had other girls bash on me. You all sat there and witnessed it. How can you deny these things? I am not trying to bring you guys down, but you say good things and bad things happened, but can you just say if it was right or wrong instead of making justifications.

We are all trying to see the truth here. I am glad that it helped you all for the most part,but what helps others trully hurts others and this matter does not need to be ignored. Think hard about things and be aware that some of us need your help. still years later.

and many of you have also stated "MMS changed my life"..well "it was definetly a change of life" being pUt in the middle of nowhere in Montana, and after a few years ofcourse it's going to have an effect on you. give yourselves credit though -YOU CHANGED YOUR OWN LIVES.
Think hard about things and be aware that some of us need your help-still years later.
I STILL CARE ABOUT YOU ALL
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 01, 2005, 10:09:00 PM
Friend,

  Those who had a good experience are attacked for saying that.  Those who didn't are attacking the school and the others.  When I read those who had a good experience, I do not hearing them attacking or attempting to invalidate others' experiences, but obviously the emotions are so strong that they are taken as attacks.
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: WhitneyS on May 01, 2005, 10:19:00 PM
What you have said is unfair, and to name people personally is even more unfair.  I do not know who you are, but as you have stated, we were there together.  Obviously we have not kept in touch or I would be more understanding of your experience and what happened to you.  "Didn't we all used to be friends?"  Yes.  And we still are.  I to this day communicate with most of the girls I went there with.  If you think you don't know me, its because you haven't cared to contact me.  
"Where are you all now, friends? I did not receive a single letter in the mail...of those who promised to write to me."
Um, did you write me?  Because every letter I received I responded to.  Every message left was a call back.
Its been five years anonymous.  I have grown five years older.  I have graduated high school, gone to college...  Among those things, I have also had some bad experiences.  My ex-boyfriend tried to kill me.  I had an abortion.  MY DAD ALMOST DIED.  Do you know any of this????  No.  You dont.  You judge me because my experience at MMS was positive?????  I never took away from you that yours wasn't.  Nor am I competing for good vs. bad at MMS.  Of course there were things there that happened to me that were unfair.  Did they help change my life?  YES.  If you are unhappy, I am truly sorry.  And if you want my support, you have it.  But my life has changed and I AM happy.  And I credit what has happened to the experience I had at MMS.  You didn't know me before I went there... You don't know me now.  You don't care what happened to me when I left.  All you care for is that I justify share your negative views with you NOW.  I will support and accept your experience.  Believe what you want, but I am a good friend not only to the girls I have in Arizona, but to girls from MMS.  If you want my friendship, email me.  Call me.  I AM HERE.  But please do not negatively comment on my life when you dont know ANYTHING about it.
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 01, 2005, 10:25:00 PM
what the heck does all that have to do with the topic?
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 02, 2005, 12:07:00 AM
Let the loving, let the loving come back to me.
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 02, 2005, 12:27:00 AM
I did not go to MMS. I am an adult just reading this forum. I have to say that after reading through some of the posts it is very easy to see how people who had bad experiences there are feeling like they have to defend themselves to the ones who had the good experiences.

You may not think you are, but those of you with good experiences are sounding like your are attacking those with bad. Like you are better than they are somehow. Now, I'm being objective and reading this as someone from the outside. This is the perception you are leaving me with. If anyone else who wasn't there is seeing this please share. Maybe it will help these ladies to realize how they are coming off and to think about how others are feeling as a result of what they are saying.

Obviously you were there, you saw what happened.

I suppose a lot depends on your lives before you went there. If life was living hell for you pre-MMS then the experience of being there might have been positive. It's obvious now that you were there when things went on that were out and out wrong. I mean, come on. How could anyone think that the things we are reading were right? No one, I don't think. At least no one in their right mind. It is hard to imagine, for me, someone from the outside, to read you say how positive this was when you were there to experience and witness the wrongs we've read about. Shame on you! You are hurting others by your statements, it's obvious. Maybe you should go back and read your posts and really objectively read them to see why others are perceiving this.

It seems that life before must have been really rough to see this as the thing that was positive and that it changed your life, for the better. Have you ever thought that maybe you would have been a great person even if you didn't have to go through those horrible things?

Maybe drugs had taken over and you stopped taking drugs at MMS. Of course you did, you were out in the middle of no where. There wasn't much choice, was there?  Maybe it was the first time you could have really deep relationships with other girls. Maybe it was the first time you were away from someone who was abusing you. I don't know.

What I do know is that people posting here are very sensitive. The ones with the good experiences as well as the ones with the bad experiences.

And the last post was uncalled for where you said you have all these friends from MMS that you have stayed in touch with and yet you never stayed in touch with the person posting. Why not? Why didn't you write to her? Did you wait for everyone else to write to you? Maybe you should think about how you are making others feel. Like you came out of there with tons of friends, life is wonderfull because of MMS, and so on.

For many others life was not so wonderful and they worked damn hard to get to where they are today. Most of these ladies are now working, going to college, doing wonderful things with their lives, and are mothers. Do they credit MMS for their successes? Not in a million years, and from what I've read, I don't blame them a bit. Their changes, their accomplishments are their own. They did not need MMS in order for those changes to occur. Remember, growing up does happen to the best of us. Even without MMS!

This is a raw subject for them and they are trying to share their stories. It would be nice if you would dig just a little deeper to find that place where you can quit being so righteous and just be nice and thoughtful. These were your friends, remember.
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 02, 2005, 12:43:00 AM
Being forced to be nice to people under the threat of severe punishment does not a group of good friends make. I mean, come on.
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 02, 2005, 12:57:00 AM
No, it doesn't. Good friends would be a whole lot more sensitive than what I am seeing here. Shame on you ladies. You have lost sight of something here - it took a lot of courage for those of you who shared your very personal, painful experiences. I'm sure those of you who did were hoping to get support from your fellow classmates.

Rather than worry about those who are posting "I had a wonderful experience at MMS, and it changed my life" (even though in the next breath they admit the abuses went on) just ignore it. They haven't yet come to realize that this is plain hurtful when someone is sharing their painful experiences.

Instead, focus on those who will support you. Go back through the threads and find them, they are there. If you really do want support, and I know you do, there was one who even shared her e-mail. Katfish, I think.

I think it would be worth your time to get in touch with her to see if she's heard from others. Connecting with them, the ones who will listen and undersand, the ones who share your feelings will be a much more positive experience than trying to deal with all of this negativity. It feels almost like a power struggle between you girls, like a tug-of-war. It's kind of intersting when you think about it. Maybe these are some of the things that are coming about because of some of the experiences you had. Maybe the pain is coming back from what happend in those sessions. Regardless, no point in wasting your energy on the negative and on those who are making you feel bad. Just find the ones who will give you strength.
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 02, 2005, 01:24:00 AM
Hey, how about a truce?
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: jroot on May 02, 2005, 01:41:00 AM
I don't know if when you named Jessica, you meant me, but It's unfair to name names when you don't. I am sad sometimes when I don't hear from people or I will miss people sometimes, but we all have our lives to live now. I know I'm very busy just trying to finish college and pay rent. Please let me know if you need to talk.
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: enge4815 on May 02, 2005, 02:02:00 AM
hey jessica
Are you the hypoglycemic soccer chick who was from seattle? It's rebecca engel we went to MMS together. I just wanted to say hi and let you know that I was thinking of you. we went on our mom's retreat together. I hope that you are doing okay and if you ever need anything let me know. E-mail me at eeyore19_us@yahoo.com. Thanks kiddo for your post. I hope that you can also check out classmates .com they have a MMS section fro when we went there. Write back if you want.
Rebecca
P.S. to everyoen who wants me to stop posting you got what you wanted after this. I am sorry you can't handle that i had a good experience ther and am trying to reconnect with friends.
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 02, 2005, 02:27:00 AM
I totally agree with the things stated in these few pages.  I too have some major resentments.  I re-entered teh world with a new outlook on life, one which completley alinated me from my peers.  I couldn't be in relation with anybody that was "in denail." My language was that of a therapist that had years of experince.  I know that my parents were only doing what they knew, but I hate the state of Montana.  And yeap, I said exactly what I needed to say to ensure a safe return home in two years.  I still have nightmares about getting sent there now at my age of 22, and having to be there for years.  I'm tormented by the experince.  Trying to explain it to others is not even worth the time because they never seem to understand.  Even when I'm sober and doing the AA thing, it's hard to really educate others on this time in my life.  It still hurts me today as well.  I tell people that I went to a "militaristic/emotional grwoth/ re-hab/boot camp/ hell/ boarding school."  I feel that's the only way to get it across.  My dad asked me often if I talk to anyone from MMS and I just laugh and say F*** no.  But that reaction is because I try to put that soooooo far behind me, but it's hard.  My "best frined" at MMS I haven't even spoke to since a left there.  Maybe once or twice right after but that was it.  And fuck, if I'm loaded or drinking......well then no one will have anything to do with me.  But the truth is that I'm a narlly drug addict and alcoholic and I'm 22, so that's a rough combination.  The years after MMS have been anything but charming and perfect.  Soooo much struggle and so much regression.  I'm so torn over this subject.  I don't know what action should be taken if any....but I'm gald that I can finally tald openly about it.
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 02, 2005, 02:37:00 AM
You've taken the first step. Sharing your story with people who have been there would probably be helpful. Many here will understand what you went through and you don't even have to explain yourself. Someone listed as Katfish gave her e-mail I think so it might be good to write to her and maybe you and others can start communicating and reconnecting. It just might help get your life on track. The answer is not drugs and alcohol. There is so much out there for you. Maybe this will be the first step to healing. I hope so.
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Antigen on May 02, 2005, 04:56:00 PM
First of all, let me commend you ladies for being civil and decent to one another. I'm not being facetious! Just take a look around some of the other forums on this server. There's a lot of "discussion" among ppl for or against a particular program, individuals in a program, individuals in the here and now and what is and is not a worthy way to deal w/ the situation. So far, not one of you ladies has asked another to kindly kill themselves, go jump in a lake, etc. I'm not kidding when I say that makes you more mature and just nicer people than we typically see affiliated w/ this industry. So kudos to all of you!

That said, and at the risk of being a nibshit, I think I'm starting to better understand why people who value their Program experience are so uncomfortable w/ hearing the views of those of us who don't. There's a basic and important conflict between what you had to say (and possibly believe) and some of what was going on.  

You tell a girl that you love her, that you're a true friend, that you'll always be there for her. But, at the same time, you have to stand by and even take part in attack "therapy" sessions where your dear friend is on the hot seat. In order to get by, you have to pretend (maybe even to yourself) that this is good for her, it's what she needs, that it's not harmful or hurtful. You couldn't defend her then. Hearing about those painful incidents that occured when you were helpless to protect your friend might be a bit hard on the nerves.

Are you feeling a little guilty? Well don't. We all did the same to some degree or another. We all understand. The only people who don't understand the harm they're doing are those who are still doing it. And those people probably never will understand. Doesn't matter. All that matters is that the rest of our community begin to understand so they will quit letting it happen.





This year will go down in history! For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!
         
Adolph Hitler

Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 02, 2005, 05:38:00 PM
Very well said, Ginger.
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 02, 2005, 06:08:00 PM
I'm sorry for anyone who feels hurt or abandoned by the other girls they attended MMS with, but I do think it's important to remember that we didn't all used to be friends. While at MMS you weren't allowed to be rude to people,tell them you didn't like them, or not be around them. Just because you're in a group like that doesn't mean that everyone is friends and loves each other,it just means that they aren't allowed to express their feelings of dislike for certain people. There were definately people at MMS that I didn't like and wouldn't have been around if I didn't have to. I don't have any ill will towards them, but I also don't expect anything from them at all. I'm not sure if people are not realizing this, but it seems like some people were honestly under the impression that everyone was friends and did care for each other. Maybe realizing that wasn't how it really was will help those people get past any hurt or resentments they have towards certain other girls.

Melissa Gower.
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 02, 2005, 07:58:00 PM
THE TOPIC "DIDN'T WE ALL USED TO BE FRIENDS"
does not mean that we were ALL friends. It means that we were all aquaintances to one another, but we formed many strong relationships together, especially with those who we choose to be our closest friends. I could name many many girls that I would get along with, and most would consider me to be their close friend. It's  unrealistic to say that EVERYONE was friends, its just an expression, and it seemed obvious to me that it was only an expression.I don't think anyone else realy got the impression that we were all great buddies. I can say for myself that I loved many girls there, and I also didn't like a handful.
The point is that it seems like everything was just for pretend. I told many girls I cared aobut them soo much, and I sobbed when they left the school, but after leaving the school myself I didn't really care.I was just glad that I made it out, and that's the way it seems now.....eveyone was just fighting for themselves even if it meant being really fake.

How can you tell someone you are their best friend and then somehow years down the road you could care less about how they feel, espeacially in this matter of things. yes people change, but friendships don't become serious friendships and then end quickly after the inconvinience of distance, or whatever. all those friends you had were never really friends..or were they? It was all a fasade.  maybe the title should have been "THE FRIENDS THAT I NEVER REALLY HAD" because I see the way she put it was that no one was ever trully friends....and truthfully I never made any "true" friends there either.....it was like a show....relationships formed out of pressure - using one another just to make it through to survive.
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Antigen on May 02, 2005, 08:42:00 PM
I'm w/ ya', Melissa. That's just the way I viewed things. But I've come to realize that some other kids (now middle aged) really did buy in on that level. You tell a lie often enough and you begin to believe it. You tell a lie daily or more under circumstances where there are harsh consequences either for lying or for refusing to lie, and that can be a real mind f***; especially when the lies are so deeply personal in nature.

But you're right. "Aren't we all friends?" is a false appeal. Sorry, no, you were not. Just unfortunate strangers trapped for a time in the Twilight Zone  :eek:

But ya'll do have that in common. So there's no need for any of you to treat each other as enemies.

Truth resides in every human heart, and one has to search for it there, and to be guided by truth as one sees it. But no one has a right to coerce others to act according to his own view of truth.
                                     
--Mohandas K. Gandhi

Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 03, 2005, 12:33:00 AM
antigen,

where you replying to Melissa, or the post above yours?
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Antigen on May 03, 2005, 10:24:00 AM
Both, I suppose.

If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit  people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good?  Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race?

--Frederic Bastiat -- 1801-1850

Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 03, 2005, 12:37:00 PM
I wish I had friends like that now..and it does feel like it was never really true..like a lie.
I was just doing it to survive. If i had to I would have revealed my friends just so I didn't have to be in trouble. I would have let them get humiliated so I didn't have to. I would tell them that I would always keep in touch....and when I lfet it was like goodbye!!!!
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 03, 2005, 06:21:00 PM
Well... speaking for myself, I have spent the last 4 1/2 years trying to stay in touch with all the wonderful girls I met at school. Maybe I was just lucky to be there at a time when the girls I was with did care about me, and I, them.  I think it's important to stay in touch, share our experiences, and share about our lives now.  I hope that I have been able to help some people do that!  Not all the girls I still talk to are my "bestest friends forever" but that doesn't mean that I don't love and care for them still!  It's hard being so far away from everyone now.  I did the college thing, made a few friends, but NONE on the same level as the girls at MMS.  Well maybe a couple but you know what I mean.  No one since has seen me at the bottom of my horrible pit of craziness... and known the reasons for why I was living there.  Anyway, this may sound selfish, but I'm glad I'm happy with where I am, what has happened to me, and who I met.  And I truley am sad for those who are not... not because they are wrong or crazy, but because they did have a hard time and are still suffering today!  That isn't right and I hope that everyone can move on.

Much love
Sarah
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 04, 2005, 12:16:00 AM
You know what this reminds me of...that website myspace.com....all those alumni they have one thing in common: that they are MMS alumni, but when I look in to it...and even attempted to contact some girls I haven't recived a responce back. They hardly even talk about anything there. I've only seen a few posts for the past 3 months. I don't want to involve myself with that group, it seems se strange.. Some girls are great friends, but for the most part no one really seems "connected".
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 04, 2005, 12:59:00 AM
The difference between myspace and this is that some people are faceless, what do we have to hide from eachother?  I love everyone that was there, even if we weren't friends.  I have definately done my best ( which is not perfect and not at all the best in comparison to whatever is) to keep in touch.  I think of, many names that are moving through my brian and heart as I write this.  Every single one of you made it into my heart. Every day I am reminded of how important, my relationships are with my sisters, and I miss all of you terribly.  I hope we can all see eachother in August @ the hopeful reunion....Because I will be there and it would suck to be there alone and totally incomplete with out my dear friends.  This is really touchey stuff, I have never been able to explain entirely to anybody outside of MMS what my experience was like there. We need eachother, and we will always be connected and our time spent at MMS will always be a sensitive bittersweet subject.
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 04, 2005, 04:16:00 AM
Does everyone know about the reunion in August?
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 05, 2005, 07:43:00 PM
I'm sure that not everyone does know about this reunion... I received an email... could see all the other names who received the email... and I'm sure it wasn't everyone who ever attended MMS by the small size of it.  I'm pretty sure it went to the girls Colleen is still in touch with?  Maybe she assumes the other girsl wouldn't want to go to a reunion anyway?  Doesn't sound like most people on here would be to thrilled to head to Montana to have a reunion, does it?
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 06, 2005, 11:10:00 PM
hahaha...reunion? back in Montana? seems like everyone has to put on their old masks again.
we didn't all like eachother anyway.
The perfective ones that were always "group leaders (or school favorites") will say I'm doing great, MMS saved me", and all the current attendants at MMS wil be looking at them as if they are gods. I could just picture it- all you "wisdomful girls preaching off"..telling your deep stories to those new comers about how you were hanging off a cliff and MMS saved you, and advising to keep their little negative mouths shut. It won't be hard for you beecause al youll get is praise.
what's the point...and everyone is so different now..especially after all this drama hell no! I know who stands by my side!  
 If you want to have a genuwine reunion DON'T HAVE IT AT MMS!
sorry for the harsh words, but that's what I really feel like saying right now>>>and now I feel better
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 06, 2005, 11:18:00 PM
don't count me in either unless it's some where else besides the school. I feel like I'll have to be fake going in there. like i'm going just to impress the school. I would love to chit chat with a few old best friends though....but I am not even sure if they care for me any more.
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 07, 2005, 03:11:00 AM
Care to share who was on the list of those invited? Maybe those of you who don't want to attend that reunion could form your own?
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Antigen on May 07, 2005, 02:53:00 PM
Out of the blue? After all these years? Just as we start to hear minor rumblings about credible legal action? Call me a cynic, I've been called worse. But I'll go out on a limb here and guess that Miss. Colleen has bigger and better plans than just a good ol'e reunion and pep rally.

If quitting drugs means joining the war on terrorism, does this portend the fire bombing of Amsterdamn ?

--Felton Manifestation

Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 07, 2005, 03:04:00 PM
Some of you guys really are just mean.  Schools have reunions all the time.  And I do want to go and share my positive story with those girls who are there... at least give them some hope.  It's not like they really have much of a choice in being there at this point anyway... might as well let them know that there is life after MMS and it can be fun too!  And Colleen has been talking about a reunion for ages... I've been in touch with her since I've left and I don't really care what you guys say about her, she's a wonderful woman.  Maybe I was well liked when I went to school there.  What is wrong with that??  What is wrong with talking to the girls there, showing up to be supportive, someone else they can talk to?  God you guys really are so mean and cynical sometimes and it sucks!!  Maybe I just learned to live my life being more positive...even when I was at MMS.  I am grateful, don't care what any of you say.  I'm grateful I finally got more than Fs on a report card so that I could go to college.  I'm glad I graduated college with a bachelors degree.  I'm glad I talk to my parents almost every day now, that I'm livign with a wonderful man and that I really enjoy my life!  No, that's not all because of MMS!  I just learned to live my life for today and not dwell in the past.
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 07, 2005, 03:26:00 PM
I can't speak for everyone but I think a big part of the issue that some girls have with Colleen and the situation is that she is monitering the internet looking for people speaking badly of MMS and then calling them and trying to intimidate them and threatening them with lawsuits. I never disliked Colleen in my time at MMS, in fact I liked her quite a bit but doing what she is doing is just ludicrous. It really just makes her and the school seem like a joke because she feels the need to make sure no one says bad things about MMS. If she was really confident in the school she wouldn't need to do that. I can definately see why that would cause cynicism, and regardless of peoples experience good OR bad I don't see how anyone can see that and not just think it's childish and ridiculous.

Melissa Gower.
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 07, 2005, 03:40:00 PM
Melissa,

I agree with you... I also liked Colleen quite a lot!!  But it is silly what she's doing... I almost want to ask her about it.  Maybe I will.  What the heck,  I will, and I'll let y'all know what she says!  Anyone else tried that?  

Sarah H.
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 07, 2005, 04:28:00 PM
Sar-
I haven't been in contact with Colleen for awhile, I guess she asked Whitney Stone about me a little bit ago cause she didn't have my email or something. I don't know, let me know what she says though.

Melissa
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Antigen on May 07, 2005, 09:11:00 PM
Feel free to jump in anytime, Colleen.

Legalizing drugs is far from a panacea for all the distress caused by drugs, but it will eliminate most of the profit and corruption from the drug trade.

--Nobel laureate, Gary S. Becker

Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 07, 2005, 09:34:00 PM
Now that should be intersting!
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: katfish on May 07, 2005, 10:19:00 PM
i called Colleen a few times, left messages, she never got back to me.
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 08, 2005, 12:10:00 AM
Who got an invitation to the reunion?
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Antigen on May 08, 2005, 12:12:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-05-07 18:34:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Now that should be intersting! "


Actually, I think it would be sort of contentious and dull; much like some of the content that people have been complaining about lately.

I do think it's interesting that you read this forum, Colleen, but don't post your thoughts. Instead you lurk around in the background, harassing some people on the one hand and trying to rally what you view as your supporters on the other.

Are you afraid of the light, like a vampire?

I am sick unto death of obscure English towns that exist seemingly for the sole accommodation of these so-called limerick writers -- and even sicker of their residents, all of whom suffer from physical deformities and spend their time dismembering relatives at fancy dress balls.
--Editor of the Limerick Times
(Limerick, Ireland)

Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 08, 2005, 01:24:00 PM
Hey there have been no intvitations yet the beginings of a possible reunion are being created for tentatively the weekend of August fourtenth and also Gary is retiring and turning 60 on the 12 of August.  And this stuff that you hear about Colleen threating lawsuits is absolutely eronious! This is a website there are no faces and its more then second hand information. Please take this into consideration.  Plus I talked to Colleen yesterday. And I think if you guys want to go don't wait for an invitation.  Call the school and ask---If you infact want to go.  I would love to see everyone there-
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: katfish on May 08, 2005, 04:24:00 PM
Sarah H,

Any word?

best,
kat
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 08, 2005, 04:30:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-05-08 10:24:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Hey there have been no intvitations yet the beginings of a possible reunion are being created for tentatively the weekend of August fourtenth and also Gary is retiring and turning 60 on the 12 of August.  And this stuff that you hear about Colleen threating lawsuits is absolutely eronious! This is a website there are no faces and its more then second hand information. Please take this into consideration.  Plus I talked to Colleen yesterday. And I think if you guys want to go don't wait for an invitation.  Call the school and ask---If you infact want to go.  I would love to see everyone there-"

It's actually not second hand information. I know specifically about one person it happened to,and though I didn't hear the phone calls myself I did read multiple emails sent between Colleen and this girl. Generally if someone is accused of something and it is found true once, than there is a strong chance it happened more times than just that. Regardless,once is bad enough.

Melissa G.
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 08, 2005, 06:16:00 PM
Hey Melissa, were you just talking about the issue of Colleen filing a lawsuit? Are you saying you saw emails that she was threatening lawsuits? Just curious.
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 08, 2005, 09:57:00 PM
Bleh, been having issues for a couple days, just busy.  I decided to email Colleen since I also don't usually receive return phone calls from her or John.  Well, I haven't tried in a long time either.  Colleen and I chat over email a bit, so I assume she'll respond.  Who knows.  I promise I'll let ya'll know what she says... whether it's honest or not, it will tell us something right?

Sarah H.
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 09, 2005, 01:39:00 AM
You know what?  I'm over this website... this is my farewell.  Colleen of course said that the lawsuit threats were preposterous and you know what?  I trust that woman and I will take her word.  I have nothing else to go by.  I'm excited to see her and John and Gary again this summer... I don't care at all if you call me brainwashed... I know I'm not so I'm pretty sure that's all that matters.  I appreciate everyone's opinions and statements on here.  It's been something to read for the last couple of weeks but now I'm more strong in my opinions than before.  No program is perfect, none has 100% satisfaction rate, none fixes everyone, none of them work for everyone.  Normal high school did not work for me... works for some others.  

I hope to see some of you this summer, I know I'll see at least a couple since I've already talked to them about it, and they are as excited as I am...

Obviously you are all going to say Colleen was lying in the email she wrote to me, and I'm somehow stupid not to see through it.  But whatever.  I'm over reading malicious comments.  I'm over reading about people dwelling in their negative pasts.  I dont' care if it sounds like I'm "too good" for all of you.  I know I'm not and that's all that matters.  I don't care if i sound arrogant because I am strong in my opinion and confident in myself.  Something I wasn't about 6 years ago!

Wishing you all luck on your lawsuits, hoping you can finally all vent enough to just get over something that happened ages ago, and hoping those who still are my friends will be there for me regardless of my opinion about something that happened half a decade ago now.  

Goodnight!  And byebye.

Sarah H.
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: katfish on May 09, 2005, 10:19:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-05-08 22:39:00, Anonymous wrote:

"No program is perfect, none has 100% satisfaction rate, none fixes everyone, none of them work for everyone.  Normal high school did not work for me... works for some others.  



Obviously you are all going to say Colleen was lying in the email she wrote to me, and I'm somehow stupid not to see through it.  But whatever.  I'm over reading malicious comments."


No program is perfect, but what about abusive?

Reagrding Colleen lying, yup, she is... and that's disappointing.  I don't think you're stupid for believing her, I would if I didn't know better.  
I think that most of us unhappy with MMS have much better things to do with our time than sit around and plot to be malicious.  It's ridiculous to suppose we're just saying these things to be mean- if we didn't feel this was such an important issue that needed to be addressed, rest assured we would not waste our time.  
Hopefully those of you who feel we're simply being mean can consider that, myself and several other students who are perfectly happy with our lives (some who left MMS over a decade ago- myself included) feel so strongly that their tactics were unethical that we are willing to sacrifice our precious time to bring it to the light of day not for the sake of ourselves, but for others. It's cathartic and even theraputic, I'll admit, but that's about it.
Best to you,
kat
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 09, 2005, 11:48:00 PM
Katfish! You are awesome!!!
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: katfish on May 10, 2005, 12:48:00 AM
why, thank you very much.
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 10, 2005, 08:33:00 PM
Sarah-Thanks! I respect your facts!

Katfish- I hear ya. Do you understand that MMS has changed completely since you attemned it Ten years ago?  

And you have power here in this forum the power of influence-Especially on institutionalized, confused women that just got on a website that shows the negative side of the place that supposedly helped them and probable freakin did wheather you liked it or not. Hypoycritical behavior Colleen threatened lawsuits, so are we, John did therapy with out a liscense, do you or Anitgen have a liscense.I think that it is great that you all are getting your thoughts and experiences out. I have seen some harmful things here as well, gossip, insults, people theruputizing when no one asked for it, and recruiting.  I am bringing this up because I urge you to understand that you and antigen are some kind of leaders here.  And you making some big public claims. Everyone believes what your saying. This is a very big responsebilitie.  Maybe there is to much power,

Someone else anonymously posted that this was confidential.  Its not.  Anyone can read this and if they have and care everyone knows whats going on, or whats not going on.  

One last thing and then I will hush.
To whom ever posted The FACTS page they aren't facts they are your perception, they are your facts.  This is about me merely posting someof my own facts signing off......

nameless like the rest.
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: katfish on May 10, 2005, 09:51:00 PM
Hey anony, post above,

I understand MMS may have changed, although from what I've heard it's changed not necc. for the better. However, I did hear John Mercer appears less and less and that sounds like a good thing to me.  Although someone said he will be appearing more frequently and that alarms me.

Whatever power I yeild here, which is probably limited to girls who find similarities in our experiences.  While I agree there is sense of power in that, it is not the way you describe.  It is always empowering to the individual to find like-minded individuals who offer support by relaying like stories and describing instances in which they feel they were wronged/abused.  Like minorities in a society, you gain strenth in unity and by association.  I'm confident these young women know their own story well enough as they have been clear in their descriptions of it and expect that my opinions have no bearing on their feelings about what they experienced at MMS. I certainly not that powerful! That is, perhaps they feel better knowing I have shared my feelings and thoughts and feel comfortable sharing, but as far as influence, I disagree. I think it's fair to say that if MMS helped them they would say that- several girls have certainly been clear that MMS was not only harmful but also helpful.  Others are clear advocates for the program.  

I'm not a therapist nor have I ever offered up any kind of therapy to another here, although I do work as an advocate and counsel people in a limited capacity outside this forum, I don't believe I've ever stated that here. If I do offer up theories with regards to MMS they are based on studies posted through various educational websites.  One need not have a license to post other peoples work or offer up a summary of that work.  In fact honrary degrees are offered to people who have not studied in institutional setting...One final point, there's an obviously tremendous difference between posting my experiences without having license and running a school for struggling teens without the proper training...
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 11, 2005, 03:34:00 AM
Well said, Kat.

Anon above, you are attacking someone who is here sharing her story and is supporting others who wish to share theirs.

They have something in common and they wish to discuss it. Nothing wrong with that. I've never seen anywhere that Kat professes to be any sort of therapist.

Looks to me she's a smart woman leading a very productive life who wants to be an advocate for others who shared a similar experience at MMS. I honestly can't see anything wrong with that.

There is a very huge difference between advocacy and therapy.

Now John, with his degree in what, Ecology? Doesn't really qualify him for his group meetings where he forced girls to share their innermost secrets in front of their peers. If they didn't have anything to offer up he claimed they were lying. In order to avoid being singled out and given some forsaken punishment, girls felt they had to lie and make things up about their sex lives, their drug history, and so on.

I don't think he shared with the girls the fact that he would be faxing these histories to the parents, then urging the parents to share them with other family members. How healthy is that?

What gave him the power to do that? Seems destructive to me - hurtful, not helpful. I can't even begin to imagine having to fill out a 20, 30, or more page questionnaire about my sex life at age 14. I didn't have a sex life yet. But according to John I would have. So I would have had to make it up.

And what about the drug histories? If you really didn't take drugs, or if you smoked a little pot and that's it, well, that was never enough for John. No, you had to have more. So you wrote about whatever you thought you needed to so that he would leave you alone and you wouldn't end up building fences for the next 8 months, or shoveling shit for the next three months. You get desperate and you do what you have to.

Just imagine having smoked pot a time or two, then out of fear and desperation writing that you had done some serious drugs, and that being faxed to your parents? Great way to convince your parents you should stay at MMS an extra year or two. Clever, huh?

There the was always the criminal history. What kind of family discord would be caused when a girl felt compelled, out of fear, to say things that were not even true. Then her parents get a copy. There's just no part of me that can find that useful or helpful. I think not!

So, I don't really think you can even begin to compare anything we've read about John Mercer with Kat. There is absolutely no comparison and it's rediculous you brought it up.

What about intervention? Did you ever participate in that? Were you ever forced to live for weeks without a shower? For weeks in the woods without any education? Oh, yes, education was a privilege at MMS. Food was a privilege. Showers were a privilege. Damn, did the girls lose all of their basic rights there?

Because to me those things are truly rights, not privileges. School in America, last time I checked, is a right. Everyone has the right to go to school - isn't that what our taxes are paying for?

And in this case parents were paying up to and over $100,000 per year for a great education for their girls. Little did they know their child's education would be taken from them if they did not conform to the impossible requests of MMS. What about the time education was taken away for 8 monhts when a girl was forced to build fences, fences that benefited MMS. And that girl lived in utter fear. How can anyone find that healthy? And why did the other adults stand by and watch this and promote this. Of course there were the employees who felt these things were wrong and guess what happened to them? They were either fired or they quit. Fired because they had a brain and spoke their minds.

Did you hear about the intervention because two girls shared a bra? Now, how on earth could anyone justify taking some 40 or so girls out of school for weeks to make them become slaves, kept them hungry for a lot of the time, without showers? Because two girls shared a bra? Just makes no sense to me whatsoever. And guess what? That happened in the early 2000's, not the early 90's. So things don't appear to have changed all that much, now have they?

And one more question - did you ever rat a girl out and gain points with John or the others for doing it? Because girls did that at MMS, in 2000, 2001, and in 1990. Hmmm... changes?

Intervention - early 90's, early 2000's
Rat girls out - early 90's, early 2000's
Shovel shit - early 90's, early 2000's
Sexual history - early 90's, early 2000's
Group - early 90's, early 2000's
Fear and manipulation - early 90's, early 2000's
Live in tents - early 90's, early 2000's
Showers as privilege - early 90's, early 2000's
Food as privilege - early 90's, early 2000's
School as privilege - early 90's, early 2000's
Brainwashing - early 90's, early 2000's
Fear of John Mercer - early 90's, early 2000's
Censored mail - early 90's, early 2000's
Censored phone calls - early 90's, early 2000's
Weigh & measure food - early 90's, early 2000's
Forced to hold it - early 90's, early 2000's
Urinary tract infections - early 90's, early 2000's
Assumed all girls were lying - early 90's, early 2000's

So really not much has changed. And I'm sure the list could go on and on. I've just touched the surface.
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Clymerchick on May 11, 2005, 04:20:00 AM
Food was never a privaledge. It was always a right while I was there. I admit there were flaws and on intervention we worked really hard and got hungry because we were burning more calories, but we still got food. When I went on intervention in the winter we got extra food after we complained of being hungry. I admit it would be abuse to take away food since it is biologically necessary, however, that never happened.

As for the other stuff... you don't like camping very much do you?

Take a step back and think about third world countries for a sec. Are showers a right? No. Education? You'd be lucky.
I think you are blowing things a little out of proportion.

The changes that happened at MMS were very drastic. Since no one has explained it yet I guess I will:

John decided to implament phase work at MMS. Now we were all familiar with the four phases that we had at MMS tht never really meant anything other than that you were done with your histories or that you had gone on your off campus. Well (this may be desputed because I have heard several different stories) Deb and Mike Finn left the school because they did not agree ith where John was taking the school. Basically MMS was turning into a formal procedure. You had to write phase transtion summaries which were very extensive and explained to the most intricate detail, the work that you had done in the phase. You had to petition to get out of the phase and move on to the next one. Just because you had your parent visit no longer meant you were in phase two. These phase summaries included a seperate summary for each program area and a petition to transition. In the summary you had to answer six questions, the last having about five parts to it on each issue you had. I wish I had a coer sheet for it still because yu would be quite disturbed. So all in all these summaries would be very long and very detailed. Might I add that you could only turn them in on Mondays which meant that I sat u in the cabin five bathroom numerous sunday nights, typing on my computer when I wasn't supposed to just to get them in on time. My phase three transition summary was about 140 pages. You thought the sexual history was bad.... this is whole different story. After they are turned in each program area reads the respective summary and wither approves or disapproves it. Then it is read by John and he has to approve all the program areas and the petition until you can move to the next phase. Needless to say John takes forever to do things (but he got better at it because we needed to graduate) and so it could be weeks before you got it back. In addition to these summaries there was a long list of tasks that you had to complete for each program area and each phase befroe you could transition. There were things like creating a project to give back to the community, how are academics important to you, what does group functionality mean to you and how do you demonstrate that. Depending on the phase there were lots of things on community, leadership, environment, etc. Anyway, for each project that you had to do you had to run it through the proposal procedure which was the same as the summaries procedure (each program area needed to approve and then John).

Since I was actually the second "cohort" of people to do the phase work we had a much different ecperience than probably the girls do now. We had a quite a few tasks taken off our list because we just wouldn't have time to do them before we graduated. We also had to suffer the technica difficulties of trying a new system. In addition to writing a complete aftercare  plan, we also had to write a defense, this was where we needed to explain we thought that we were ready to graduate. On the day of graduation we went through an oral defense proceure where we read out our reasons to graduate and where everyone (including parents) had the opportunity to take a crack at why they thought we werent ready and we had to basically defend ourselves. It was really quite intense.

Anyway, I'll explain more about phase tasks and stuff later, but you can see how the school has changed yeah?

By the way when I was there our letters weren't screened, we just had limitations on who could send us mail and who we could send it to that had to be approved by the parents and the therapist. And I'm really sorry if I made a million typos in this because I am a horrible typer and I don't want to read it over for mistakes cause it's one in the morning and I have a chem test tomorrow. :sad:

Oh yeah and I was informed that all of my histories would be given to my family before they were and I think that it is a god idea to share them with your parents. I never felt compelled to make up things that I did priory to going to MMS. My experience with them and the other peopel I witnessed was that people lied about their histories (minimizing) and were caught, thus being forced into sharing them with the whole group. Wrong or not it doesn't hurt to be hnest the first time. If you did feel complelled to make stuff up I'm really sorry because that would create very awkward conditions and assumptions between everyone.

Anyway... bed. Must go to bed.

Jessamine
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: katfish on May 11, 2005, 09:03:00 AM
Woa, phase stuff sounds crazy intense!  Wow, I'm kind of speechless.  I know Mike thought those phase programs were too easy to manipulate your way through, I can see why he left.
The thing with lying at MMS, in one instance, was John was bound and determined that he would be able to interpret what written in my diary prior to MMS, many allusions.  He assumed incorrectly and didn't believe me when I denied having had sex (I had just turned 14 when I arrived at MMS), among other things.  
Also at that time it was insisted that we talk about an issue when we have a break down from a physical activity.  Of course one had little to do with the other, but that was the idea.  Except for maybe being frustrated that it was hard to keep up with the pace,  I felt forced  to make up or exaggerate and issue/feeling  b/c otherwise there would be consequences for not dealing with your shit.  May have to carry rocks on your back- who wants that?  Go figure.
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 11, 2005, 10:38:00 AM
Regarding the food issue - I've heard girls talk about how hungry they were during certain periods of time. They were not deprived of all food, just most food. They were given very little and it was not the same as everyone else was eating (early 2000's and early 90's).

They were not allowed to eat with the other girls, rather alone if they were on personal intervention, or whatever they called it when they singled a person out to live in a tent and do rediculous stuff like shovel shit all day long or build fences all day long without getting their education WHILE their parents were paying for them to get a great education.

Get my point? Camping is one of my favorite things. The difference is when I camp I have plenty to keep me warm (girls were frozen at night), I'm not left out in the middle of no where alone, I have as much food as I want, whenever I want, I'm not forced to shower in a bucket (unless I want to, then that's different), and I wasn't forced to do physical labor to benefit someone else.

I'm sure things have changed on some levels, because life is change. But my point was that there are many things there that have not changed - those are some of the very things people complain about here.
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 11, 2005, 11:10:00 AM
Clymerchick,


        You spoke about Intervention and it seems to me that it did not bother you all that much. I do not know which intervention you are talking about, but I was there the entire time and I hardly even remember you. I think you were there at the end of the intervention period, unless it was a different intervention (the one with trading bras?) Anyway, those of us who were there for all, or most of the intevention had it worse. I think that you were there during the easier times of intervention so it is hard for me to listen to you when you speak of it. But I could be wrong.

Also, about the whole food issue bussiness-now getting on my nevrves!- The whole point is that 1. WE DID NOT ALL HAVE EATING DISORDERS- so it was unfair to make everyone go in to a "plan"
2. SOME EAT MORE THAN OTHERS- like myself I had a high metabolism and I would get shaky if I didn't eat enough. I needed extra food.

3. WHEN YOU WORK YOU NEED EXTRA FOOD- it is necesary to eat good portions when you do extra work. You should not feel like a pack of wolves when eating meals because you are so hungry.  

This was a typical day's meals:

Breakfast:
bagel, (w/cream cheese, butter, or jelly)
yogurt
cereal
Milk

Lunch: usually peanut butter & Jelly

Dinner: Ravioli (1bowl)
Slice of bread with butter


Damn I think I could have eaten 3 times that much!
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 11, 2005, 11:13:00 AM
I forgot to add the menu above is an example of meals during intervention.
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 11, 2005, 11:40:00 AM
I have read many of your posts clymber chick, and you have also made me confused. It seems as though you keep going back and forth about this whole issue. I just want to ask you do you believe as entire whole the school was in the right or in the wrong? It's hard to take in your thoughts when it seems inconsistant.

you said:   Take a step back and think about third world countries for a sec. Are showers a right? No. Education? You'd be lucky. -----

Just to comment on that--we were not an a 3rd world country ( well I was when I was born, and can tell you it's hell) our parents paid a A GREAT DEAL OF MONEY! so we shouldn't have had to compare the at all! we are fortunate ones. We should have had a silver platter feom all that money! >

you said: "I think you are blowing things a little out of proportion".
Just to comment on that--I don't think she was blowing anything out of proportion because she was stating the truth. and what exactly do you believe was out of proportion?


"I wish I had a coer sheet for it still because yu would be quite disturbed",  
"Might I add that you could only turn them in on Mondays which meant that I sat u in the cabin five bathroom numerous sunday nights, typing on my computer when I wasn't supposed to just to get them in on time."

Where do you stand in all this??? I could be neutral, but I feel like that's too easy for me..
Sorry, don't mean to make you feel dumb or anything..I just am really curious.
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 11, 2005, 12:01:00 PM
I don't ever remember being deprived of food, I don't recall any urinary tract infections.  I remember to much food almost,  and no I didn't have an eating disorder, and when I first got there I hadn't really been taking care of myself that well because eating was  not a top priority.  Everyone thought I had an eating disorder.  And I didn't know up from down, if someone told me to stand on my head in the corner and whistle because it would change my life and make me feel better I would have done it.  ANd you know what some girls where told to do that because it was about not at all getting through school, but being contemplative about your life, your morals and ideals, Like shoveling horse shit can be very meditative.  It was about having a foundation of the spiritual side of life.  About finding beauty in the dark.  And you know what life is still dark, and I still almost pee my pants sometimes, and I still am surrounded by all sorts of people in this world with defects of character, whether they are lying, or I am doubting everything, or she has an eating disorder, or he says hes gonna do all sorts of things and still does nothing different.  

CHange is a part of life when I was about 8 or 9 I stoped changing I became incredibly resistent to change, and my lifenot only unmanageble, and not only was I powerless over afew things and it felt like everything, but my life was unbearable.  

MMS started me on a path of change agian, it recharged my soul to beable to be strong for me and go through life and continue to change.  

It is not abusive to eat the same meal for breakfest, everyday.  I didn't like a lot of things about MMS, I don't like alot of things about life either.  MMS does its best and improves on a daily basis and changes on a daily basis, to be the best parellel to a small world a safe world, a constructive world.  

John was the head master, and he doesn't need a liscense to give  assignments to students.  John is also spiritual, and gave us a place to find ourselve, the negatives and positives.

I can think of a lot f mistakes that happened at MMS, nothing that dems the word abuse or the action of a lawsuit.  

signing off
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 11, 2005, 04:30:00 PM
The only instances I can think of where food seemed like more a privilidge than a right was when we'd be in group with john and he wouldnt want us to go to lunch we were there and it was time for dinner but we needed to continue on with group so we ended up not getting lunch and eating dinner at 11 pm. This happened several times but aside from that, I don't think food was ever taken away from us.
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 11, 2005, 07:15:00 PM
damn ..can we get off this food issue? No one ever really stated that we were abused though eating damn...someone just made a comment about it..we are not concerned about the school just because of food, there are maIn other concerns. People keep on posting about it...getting off the point..! and the point wasn't at all about food deprivation in the first place. Gawd I hate it when people post VERY IMPORTANT INFORMATION OUT OF THEIR HEARTS, and people get the dumbest thing out of it...OPEN YOUR EYES....it's not the food its, not that john didn't have dam licence, it's not about those assignments ..even the tittle of this topic is not the point DIDN'T WE USED TO BE FRIENDS......someone thought it was written because they though it meant WE WERE ALL FRIENDS..take a deeper look at things....IT'S NOT THAT WE USED TO BE FRIENDS ....ITS THAT WE WERE THERE ONCE FOR EACHOTHER BECAUSE OF THE SCHOOL AND THEN YOU GRADUATE AND NO ONE REALLY GIVES A SHIT WHAT HAPPENS TO YOU.--THATS PARTLY WHAT IT MEANT!!!!   and you think you became "wise" because of mms....I am getting so sick of going in circles. write something that make trully think.
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 11, 2005, 07:45:00 PM
Oh my god anon above me, did you forget your prozac this morning???  people can say what they want, if you don't like it, don't read it!
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 11, 2005, 08:00:00 PM
People can say whatever I agree...but as well to them if they can't be consistant about what they are saying they need don't need to say anything at all. it's like they just want to write for the hell of it...it's like adults trying to explain things to little kids.

and no I'm not on prozac..i wish I was..lol, but seriously don't make that type of comment cause there was no need for that.
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 11, 2005, 08:11:00 PM
You were irrationally angry, typing in CAPS LOCK, and ranting on and on about why people shouldn't be talking about food.  it was just silly... why did you even make that comment to begin with.  it's not like anyone was attacking you personally.  sure, the topic of this forum is something about being friends, but the food issue came up and people had their stories to share.  just like in all the other forums, people sharing their personal experiences.  people like to talk about themselves, as i'm sure you do.  maybe you didn't think food was a big deal there, but apparently they did!!  the prozac comment wasn't meant to be mean, i was being sarcastic and sorry if you took offense.
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 11, 2005, 09:14:00 PM
Honestly I got a mad for a minute and felt the need to just explode.  :flame:   I feel better now. I need a therapist. lol :roll:
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Clymerchick on May 11, 2005, 10:40:00 PM
Ok to clear up the confusion on where I stand on MMS the reality is that I think there are good and bad things about MMS.
Pro... made good friends
Con... had to be "friends" with people whom you didn't particularly like.
Pro... we were forced to work hard to estabish good work ethics.
Con... it sucked, we got hungry, and we were sometimes cold.
Pro... we got help for specific issues that plagued us
Con... we had to bear extra issues (like addictions) for the greater good of the group.
Pro... honesty within friendships
Con... sometimes you had to rat them out
Now I could go on like this forever, but that would be a little excessive and boring to read I'm sure.

Basically some stuff sucked there, maybe it can be changed, but they run the risk of lowering their productivity of helping the girls. I don't agree with all the phase stuff that was implamented to make you like an MMS robot, but I do agree with the intention of the program. Picking on silly things that may have happened once while I was there just seems like another one of those stupid american things. No offense, but political correctness is incedibly important here, and anything that sets someone off their rocker creates a whole revolution. Anyway, I'm having a hard time articulating what I really mean by that, but regardless, it doesn't all seem like that big of a deal to me.

If you think the program was abusive, it is clear it wasn't the right place for you. In all honesty and sincerity if you are claiming that MMS has scarred you for life and you have been permanently traumantized by it, you definatly needed a place that could help you more emotionally. I'm not saying that to be mean or spiteful or anything to the same likeness, it is the truth. The stuff that went on at MMS was hard at times, and maybe there were times when innapropriate things occured, but they were few and far between. It is hard to walk the thin line between abuse and athority when dealing with emotionally troubled teens. If you really feel that hurt by MMS that it has ruined your life, you must have many current issues still controling your life and you should have gone to a more intensley theraputic program with less emphasis on self discovery and spirituality. Perhaps this isn't the case though, and you are fighting because you are angry and don't want other girls to go through what you did. Totally valid.

a∑buse     P   Pronunciation Key  (-byz)
tr.v. a∑bused, a∑bus∑ing, a∑bus∑es
To use wrongly or improperly; misuse: abuse alcohol; abuse a privilege.
To hurt or injure by maltreatment; ill-use.
To force sexual activity on; rape or molest.
To assail with contemptuous, coarse, or insulting words; revile.
Obsolete. To deceive or trick.

Just thought I might throw that in there. People were never hit or molested at MMS. Food was never taken away as punishment (it may have changed because of the environment). Holding our pee was an issue of respect, taken too far sometimes, but not constituting a lawsuit. Girls were yelled at, but only with the hopes of helping them, or out of anger that any human would feel if they were upset by something we did. My ed consultant yelled at me and told me I was a three year old, am I going to sue him for abuse?

Yes, we did lead most of our time there in fear of getting in trouble, and I DON'T THINK THAT'S RIGHT, but it's NOT abuse. Yes, John was late a lot and made us wait for silly amounts of time but that's not abuse.

Look, MMS has tons of flaws. Where there is a good point, there is a bad point to combat it and that's just the way it is. There were quite a few things that really sucked about the school, but we got to play soccer and ski and learn and make friends. Emotionally MMS helped me grow up, learn how to deal with difficult people, have patience, and most of all, be understanding. I had to be an addict at the same time, say stuff about my friends that I didn't want to, but at the time I thought would help them. I had to eat fucking tomatoes and I hated that the most of all. When you look at it like that it all seems to slide into perspective. HOWEVER, this was my experience and I speak for the people that were there while I was (on a factual level of what I witnessed). I have heard "horror" stories from when people had to go on personal interventions and things like that. I'm sorry to the poeple that had to do that, but the school doesn't do things like that anymore (at least during my time there).

On a side note to Anon: I did come during the end of that intervention but (lucky me!) I got to stay through two other interventions while I was there. One was a "retreat" of sorts when we remodeled or refurnished the campus. We took everything out of the rooms and repainted the cabins inside, re wall papered them. It was about cleaning up our lives. Each night we slept down in the group house together. It wasn't for fun, it was a punishment because a bunch of people were depressed and being stupid by bringing other people down but John brought us all flowers and each a single rose afterwards to "bring the color and life back to the campus" because we had worked so hard. It was quite sweet. Anyway, the other intervention was the shittiest thing in the world and could be the only thing that we did while I was there that even comes close to abuse. We went on intervention in the winter (-13 degrees at some points), slept in tents, cleared brush and made gigantic burn piles all day. Then we would move the burn pile somewehere else etc. We got really hungry so we got extra food. It was no longer a ladel of ravioli, but like a ladel and a half. We got two rolls and salad. It wasn't so bad. I did have freezing feet at some points and lost the feeling in my toes a lot. Thank god it was a huge motivator for people to get back on track. Anyway, we almost didn't get to go on our home visits, but then people pulled through in time for us to go and I was so happy I got to go home and get away from that intervention. When I came back three weeks later they were back on campus. That whole thing was the absolute worst experience that I had while I was there, but in all reality some of the girls really deserved it because they were being entitled, bratty, pieces of crap that needed a wake up call. It worked though. Anyway... I HAVE experienced a very shitty intervention. Still doesn't mean I think it was abuse, but I do think it could have been done an alternate way. Who Knows maybe it couldn't have.

So I can't think of anything else to say other than we all need to stop generalizing. I had a curfew when I came back from MMS and I had to be home by ten thirty. I came home really late once because I was having a really bad day and I popped a tire etc. etc. My mom always brought that up when she would talk to me about being late. I was barely ever late but she would always say "You are always late!" I hated that because it wasn't true that I was always late. One thing can come back and bite you in the ass, but it doesn't actually mean it happens all the time. Maybe MMS has made a few mistakes and made a few girl's lives crappy, but don't say that everything is bad just because one thing was. I was genuinly happy while I was there. It's so immature and pointless to pick on this stuff. Where do you guys think you're going to go with this all anyway? The lawsuit? Is that really going to make you happy?

Think about it....
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 11, 2005, 11:19:00 PM
I think if you were to hear my story you would know why I feel the way I do. But I am sorry I can not reveal myself. and I am sorry I can not fully explain myself either because in telling my story it would be obvious for people to know who I am. I like the way you described things, but in some ways you make us out-(US as in the ones who are planning a lawsuit)to be dishonest and childsish. We are all women and its been many years down the road since we've been to MMS, there is no reason why we would make these accusations unless they were genuwine.
We are not picking at the school for no reason like we were princesess and deserved perfect therapy...it's nothing close to that. I believe that we needed some punishments at times, but sometimes it was taken too far. I am glad that the school helped you, you got the money's worth! but some of us it made us worse and extremely confussed, and that's an awful feeling. I don't know what else to say...i feel like I have to keep on explaining myself over and over..
 someone <<<>>>>>>>how can I make it clear to everyone?
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 12, 2005, 01:03:00 AM
to the chica i made the prozac comment to... :smile: i apologize and i totally understand where you're coming from.  sometimes i just explode too... i suppose i still need therapy too!

much love.
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 12, 2005, 01:08:00 AM
to anon who can't reveal herself... i don't exactly understand why not... i mean, if you truly beleive what you say, then you should feel comfortable with who you are and other people knowing.  besdies, if there IS a lawsuit, i'm pretty sure you can't remain completely anonymous.  i'm not trying to rag on you, i Śm just curious.  and yes, we are all grown women now, and i don't think you would "make stuff up" but... the school really has changed and i don't think filing a lawsuit to get it shut down or whatever will really help?  or what do you expect to come from a lawsuit?  do you want to reinvolve all those staff who aren't even at the school anymore?  i don't know, i understand that it's really important to you, i just dno't want you or anyone else to get more hurt because of it.
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Clymerchick on May 12, 2005, 04:29:00 AM
To the anon who can't reveal herself,

You are the first person that I have seen who is involved in the lawsuit to actually have level headed response to what I said. Thank you for reading what I had to say and I hope that you may find some resolution through your actions. I truly am sorry that you had the experience you did... but like the girl above just said, what is it that you are trying to acheive from the lawsuit?

I do also agree that all th anonymous people should either reveal themselves or always sign with a nickname. I had the balls to put my name out there. Anyone who reads this can have my name.

My name is Jessamine McLellan and I'm not afraid to say what I think whether you agree with me or disagree is regardless. What are you guys afraid of?
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 12, 2005, 11:50:00 AM
I'm mostly afraid because a lot of the girls I know still go there. I don't want the school to think I'm a bad influence on them, and I don't want to influence them about this issue at all. Also a lot of girls who write violently about how good the school was were friends of mine too. I guess I just don't want anything to change the relationships I have with girls there, out of there, and staff there. However, if there is a lawsuit, I think I would put my fears aside, because that is a bad place overall, regardless of the friendships I have through it.
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 12, 2005, 11:52:00 AM
By the way, the one abave was from me and not the girl who said she could not reveal herself a few posts ago.
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Star on May 12, 2005, 10:15:00 PM
wow...all these anon...are confusing me too...but I am the anon who said I can't reveal myself..and joked about the prozac when I felt offended...anyway...

I posted this in another Topic , but I feel as though  I need to post it again, in case you miss it. It might help you understand me a little more.
tell me what you thin! thank you for listening even though we do not fully agree with everything.

I have a very decent life. I am very honest and aware of who I am today. But In my previous life, even before MMS I was not happy. I was abused, physically, sexually, emotinally, verbally, you name it. When I was sent to MMS I was supposed to get the proper attention and care for the pain that I had been through my entire life. I was extremely traumatized, and vulnerable.I needed understanding. I needed love and attention. I was only 14 years old. My case was extra sensitive, but it made me no more special than anyone. Instead of being understood I was told that I was in complete self-pity. I had been molested and I was told that I was a sex addict. I was abandoned, and I was told that I was ungrateful (because I had been adopted). I was confused, and I was told that I was manipulative.
I was hurting, and I was told that I was fine.
I was angry, and I was told that I was attention seeking.
There were only about 30 girls there at the time, and I felt like I was always kicked to the side. It was not my job to beg someone to do therapy on me. I was there because they were the therapists or mentors, and I was their client. I was not an adult...I was a little child not even fully developed why should have the waited for me to "step up"..it had been the whole reason why I was sent there in the first place.

I can understand that Mission mountain school might not have been the place for a child with my case....but Mission Mountain School, if it is proffesional, why didn't they just tell my parents that they couln't help me? That they didn't know how to help me? Instead I was labeled a sex addict, an alcoholic, even a drug addict?
I am none of these things..I was mis-diagnosed, and I applied myself to all the "Medications" (as in AA, SLAA, NA meeting..even working all the 12 steps!) So when leaving MMS my problems were maily these false addictions that I had, and my true pain was never really dealt with. Do you want to know the simplest way I fixed myself? One day I just decided that God would set things straight..and I did not need to keep on analyzing over and over to detail. There was no point anymore, and that the simplest thing. MMS made me feel insane...as if I was not going to make it in the world. They made me feel like I was an alien. As if I was going to be paralized my entire life.
You know how it would feel if a doctor makes a mistake and tells you you need all these medications to survive, and make sure not to go here and there, and you need to attend all these classes, and deprive yourself of this and that, and tippy toe every where you go because you might die..and then you realize that your real treatment could have been a simple shot on the arm. You feel like a dumbass for ever believing such a dumb doctor, who just wanted to make you do all these things to benefit himself ..., and ofcourse you still hold that grudge years and years after.....well thats how I feel...
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Star on May 12, 2005, 10:20:00 PM
oh yeah and about the lawsuit..I feel that the doctor needs to give me my money back so I can put it to better use...and needs to change his ways of analyzing and misdiagnosing people in order to help young women trully get help with what they need, and that is my mission...or else he needs to get his butty out of the school.
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Clymerchick on May 13, 2005, 01:16:00 AM
I think that what you had to say about your experience was well articulated and I am appreciative of your level headed honesty. I'm sorry that MMS wasn't the right place for you and I do agree that they are very bad at humbling themselves and just admitting that they are not the right institute for someone. While you are there you are made to believe that MMS should work for you and there is something wrong with you if you have to leave on bad terms. Sometimes terms really were bad, other times it just wasn't the right place and they had go but made it seem as though they were bad. Remember the "lockdown talk"? The other thing along those lines is that there is no possible way to ever raise a serious complaint or concern about the school while you are there. If you ask your parents then you are being manipulative and self serving, if you did it while you are there you could be slapped with any sort of psycho babble lable for it. That is something that should be changed. Those two things are the only two real issues that I have with MMS, but neither of them consitute being called abuse. They were just the way it was, both not a big deal then, and not a big deal now.

I guess if it's regulations you are after with the lawsuit then that may fix these two issues, but the money thing... I don't know how I feel about that yet. Although I am rather anti materialistic and so lagre amounts of money make me want to vomit, I don't know if money is really the issue. Basically, if money is the primary motive I don't think your hearts are in the right place.

Jessamine
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 13, 2005, 02:55:00 AM
Perhaps the result of the suit could be that John and Colleen had to shovel their own horse shit and take care of their own property, unload their own hay. That would be a good start,haha.
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 13, 2005, 10:57:00 AM
Hahaha..yeah make them do all the mataphors who all had to do..like for one girl carring a bag of rocks around..they could do that while they shovel the horse shit..lol :lol:

Well thank you for responding back honesty. I guess I didn't explain the money things very well.
First of all I didn't pay for the school my parents did, and were talking about an amount that could buy a house about $160,000. If you were my parents, and you paid all that money for me to get properly "medicated", and then I came out even more messed up, it wouldn't be something that you could just brush off. My parents were extremely angry with me, and even to this day we have problems and it's stems from way back then.

We never turlly discussed this entire MMS issue because I did not want to tell them that they had spent all that money for nothing. But now these recent times i've thought about it, and they deserve to know- and they deserve get that money back. I do not want them to feel the way they do towards me as if I am ungrateful <>. The fact that they used all that money on me, and it was rather useless, puts me in a position with them. Makes me look like the bad guy..and it has for about 5 years. I have 2 children now that my parents hardly visit, and it all stems from the whole issue...."I tried to help my daughter, I sent her away to a great program, I spent a great deal of money, and she doesn't even change. This is how she repays us?"
I think I would hold a grudge towards someone if I was willing to spend $160,000 help them, and they were never "willing" to be helped at all (thats what mission mountain school made it seem like). That is not the whole reality at all. What I described on my previous post is the truth. My family should not be going through all of these troubles. I believe that all of these matters needs to be resolved, and when they do it will be a hell a lof better for us. They could use that money towards something else..make them happy..and I will no longer be pointed out as the bad guy.
And I am sure the would be more willing to help me out now knowing the entire truth, but in the mantime they will continue to seperate themselves from me. and it can not be just handled with a simple conversation as to why I didn't chnage at that point time. They need to hear it from other people as well from profeesionals like lawyers etc.  

This not even the entire reason for the lawsuit, but it defenetly one of them. I just want to let you know that I was someone who was greatly punished at MMS, and the reason for my punishment wasn't even acknowledged to me (I can not tell you what it was because it would automatically reveal me) but just believe me when I tell you it was extremly unfair!

Also..I am starting to hate this whole abuse business. I am not claiming that I was abused daily or that anyone was abused on a daily basis. My story is a little different though, like i said. But when looking at the whole school in general I wouldn not call abusive either...it's something deeper..I would rather use something more like manipulative. This lawsuit is not all about abuse..somewhere along the line it got twisted around as that..it's what's right from wrong.I t's what didn't happen that should have happened, or what did, but shouldn't of. It's truths verses false. It's laws, or broken laws. It's the entire principle of things. it's a doctor claiming to be a doctor, but not actuaaly being one.

Let's not look at it from an "abusive" perspective there's to many measurements to abuse.
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Star on May 13, 2005, 10:59:00 AM
the post above was written by me..so there is no confusion about anon... :wink: chao..tell me what u think.
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 13, 2005, 11:20:00 AM
Star,  

   I give you a lot of credit for what you have written here and every where else. It's extremely helpful to me because I am a bit unsure about where to go on all of this. You've put my thoughts in words, and thank God someone can express themselves like you!
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Star on May 13, 2005, 11:41:00 AM
The school could also change for the better and I would love to be involved in that. I am greatly interested in helping other people. I wish the school would work around "helping others helps you." I would have loved to do some charity work while I was there. I would have loved to be able to work with people less fortunate than myself, rather than always focusing on my issues. There are so many other useful ways to helps girls/and boys that does not have to revolve around extreme therapy-phsycho bable. Girls could have had more time to express themselves through their greatest interests. I was great at soccer, and I wish the school could have helped me persue that dream even further. The school could have taken a trip to a distant place, like South America, as an eye opener. They could run charities and other events. Instead of always focusing on the pasts they could have shown us girls how to embrace all parts of life so we could always have some where to turn to. Being focused on our problems didn't seem to always help. Therapy does not actually have to be therapy as in "talking about it". For me therapy is enjoying life and loving every aspect. Everything does not have to be analyzed..even a ski trip. I needed to learn how to love, and loving myself was most important. When I had fun at mms I felt like that too had to be analyzed. "just let it be, let everything, be", you don't need an explanation for everything.


This is another reason for the lawsuit..to make the school change for the better if possible..if John accepts it. What do you think you would do to change the school for the better?..all of your ideas could be added when the suit is filed.
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 13, 2005, 12:03:00 PM
Why don't you post on Kat's new forum?
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Clymerchick on May 13, 2005, 02:17:00 PM
Thanks for your clear explanation. It's good to see someone who doesn't agree with the school's practices, but isn't set on deeming everything abusive. Like I said before, I myself disagree with things that the school did, but don't consider any of it abusive. I like the way you put it:

"It's what didn't happen that should have happened, or what did, but shouldn't of. It's truths verses false. It's laws, or broken laws. It's the entire principle of things..."

The school has a lot of potential, has helped many girls, hindered others. I don't think that John and Colleen would mind shoveling their own horses shit, doubt it matters to them that much. While I as there we thought it as like we were giving back to him for what he was giving to us, at least I kind of saw it that way. I also liked doing work in general. I was one of those people that had fun loads of fun mauling wood with Doug, or always wanted to be a mower. You know what I mean.

Anyway, it seems like some people are upset about a lot of petty things about the school, but they add up to something greatly upsetting to some of you. I don't know what to say about it other  than I hope you find what really matters to you most: getting past the troubles it caused you, solving the problems for future girls, or somehow finding satisfaction in a lawsuit. Good luck.
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Antigen on May 13, 2005, 03:59:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-05-13 07:57:00, Anonymous wrote:

This lawsuit is not all about abuse..somewhere along the line it got twisted around as that..it's what's right from wrong.I t's what didn't happen that should have happened, or what did, but shouldn't of. It's truths verses false. It's laws, or broken laws. It's the entire principle of things. it's a doctor claiming to be a doctor, but not actuaaly being one.

Let's not look at it from an "abusive" perspective there's to many measurements to abuse.


You're absolutely right. You say the word "abuse" and people have very specific ideas what that means.

I don't know what your lawsuit is about, except the vague descriptions you have given. That's fine. That's nobody's business unless and until you make it so.

I can tell you what my idea is for the forums, though. it's about people claiming to be doctors or experts or professionals at anything from substance abuse to eating disorders who simply are not experts in those areas. Even the licensed, certified experts seem to not really have a handle on these issues. That's almost another issue entirely.

But these people running programs based on the Synanon method seem to have no clue how destructive their method is and even less interest in hearing about it. They don't set out to abuse and destroy people, I'm sure of that. But they can take those good intentions and $3.50 and get a nice cup of cappacinno at Starbucks for all I care. I think people ought to be able to find out the other side of the issue before they send their kids to these people for help.

War is God?s way of teaching Americans geography.

--Ambrose Bierce (died 1914)

Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 13, 2005, 04:35:00 PM
John doesn't need to have a liscense to practice therapy---He is the ehad master of the school, and he was a teacher, not a thearapist---it alwasy felt much different in group with him rather then Gary.  Anyways,  just want to put that out there.
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 13, 2005, 09:00:00 PM
Actually, you do need a licsense to practice "therapy", (which I'm pretty sure he has) but you dont' need a license to call yourself a "counselor".  Anyone can call themselve a "counselor".
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Antigen on May 13, 2005, 09:31:00 PM
Counselor? Therapist? What's the diff from the pov of a screwed 14yo kid?

I hate when the discussion comes down to maliable definitions.

If it's such a good idea to spill your guts and look for wisdome to a more-or-less random group of other fucked up teenagers, then what's wrong w/ gangs?


 :roll:

I am not a vegetarian because I love animals;  I am a vegetarian because I hate plants.  
-- A. Whitney Brown



_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
   10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Star on May 13, 2005, 11:47:00 PM
I am not trying to be malicious to any of you by saying this, but it's seems as though some of you are missing the point. If you think about the whole aspect of John's work......he did make himself out to be like a therapist..he analyzed us and told us what we were, and weren't, or atleast convinced us.
I have no right, no matter what type of leader I am or claim to be, to analize anyone or place judment upon them unless I am a proffesional because these things are very sensitive, and can cause great damage to people. But John was not a simple person like me. He was a person in charge of an entire school having clear influence on every single person there. Yes John was a very intelligent person. He was very powerful. But his direction in leadeship did not lead everyone towards the right road..and he should have made it clear to parents and even students that his way might not be the right way for everyone, but he made us believe "His way or no way at all."
I still feel like I keep on repeating myself. Please please look at this from all perspectives. As I would, you would, parents would, inspectors would,lawyers would, friends would, even GOD would.  After all he is my only judge.
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 14, 2005, 04:58:00 PM
Anonymous   
Posted: 2005-05-13 13:35:00    John doesn't need to have a liscense to practice therapy---He is the ehad master of the school, and he was a teacher, not a thearapist---it alwasy felt much different in group with him rather then Gary. Anyways, just want to put that out there.

     Group felt different with John because he was intimidating and unprofessional. John yelled at me more than any other girl while I was there. He told me I would end up a crazy homeless woman on the street if I didn't go on medication and stop questioning the schools methods. I never trusted him for a second, because someone who does not support open communication of the thoughts and feelings people have about the community they live in, is clearly bent on control. These are methods used all throughout history to keep people from overthrowing thier rule. These tactics are the same as those used by Moa Ze Dong, Joseph Stalin, Adolf Hitler, and George W. Bush. Obviously the intensity of the tactic is scaled down a lot, since instead of being punished with death or jail time, we had to do physical labor and be yelled at, which still sucks but not nearly as bad.
     The point is, scaring children with threats of isolation, physical labor, or even the promise of a dead end future is wrong, whether you consider that abuse or not, it's wrong. I was not made to work for hours in sub-zero weather simply because I had a lesson to learn, it was more so to keep me from critisizing the school again, it was to make an example of me. John wanted to make a clear, direct correlation between questioning your superiors and  misery and pain.
     I completely understand how some of you still hold on to the idea that Mission Mountain was not corrupt. When you hear something enough, you begin to internalize it. Didn't they always used to tell us that? I even had a hard time seeing through thier facade at times, but when I told people at home about some of the things that went on there, I could see a look of pure disgust on thier faces, because unless you've been convinced over and over for two years that that MMS was a wonderful place, there is no way you could believe it. That is the most dangerous part about MMS, they say they treat thier students better than all the other boarding schools because thier supportive of your growth and personal recovery. But a man on the street who yells at you then tells you to get in his car is much less dangerous than one that lures you in with candy and a sweet smile.
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 15, 2005, 01:24:00 AM
The point is, scaring children with threats of isolation, physical labor, or even the promise of a dead end future is wrong, whether you consider that abuse or not, it's wrong.

Posted by anon above...

I was scared before John ever started talking or raising his voice to get his point across.  All three of these consequences taught me more then talking about how I am hyper sensitive and people need to realize this so I can live my life better....

Life scared me and beleive it or not these were metaphors for my life to help us. He never promised me a dead future probable because I figured that was a given.

Life gets cold.....ANd we need to keep going

Life is painful......that doesn't mean that I get to just check out from my life.

Life is full of shit.... SO keep dealing with it.

Life is lonely........And I deal with this stuff everyday....

I don't disagree with your perception... I disagree, with you claiming this abuse and no one can say that it isn't because to me....It wasn't and it isn't...

I was worried that MMS was harmful, especially about a year after I got out.  I was pissed off.  And I had to work through this stuff on my own, with my new community.  It was really hard, because no one understood my experience, and I was unable to really ever tell anybody the whole story, because there was no way I could.  And I realized after I get through stuff like this every time I relearn, that MMS, challenged me, and helped me to appreciate life and the world, through this stuff that is being called abuse.
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 15, 2005, 05:50:00 AM
Read the posts of the horrible experiences some had at MMS and you can clearly understand why it would be considered abuse by anyone! Anyone who is not brainwashed by MMS and others like them, that is. Just like the person above said, when she told people in her community some of the things she experienced, people who have never been under the "spell" of these programs, they all agreed what she described was abuse.

You may not have suffered abuse, good for you. But some others did and to discount what they experienced is again plain wrong. Why would you want to make people feel they need to defend their postition? It's rediculous and hurtful.

Abuse is abuse, no matter how your slice it. Funny, when I was a kid my mom never thought I was abused by my dad. She would simply not accept it. No matter how many times I told her he would beat me with a belt she just said it was normal spanking and tell me to get over it. She did not want to face it, plain and simple. We have gone around and around about this issue many times during my lifetime because it is very difficult not to be heard when you know something that happened to you was abusive.

Intersting thing happened. Recently my sister-in-law divorced my brother and is dating. My niece and nephew don't particularly like this guy nor do they get along. My mother is worried because he yelled at my nephew once.

I asked my mother if she would think it was abusive and what she would do if this new guy would take my niece, put her across the bed, panties down, and beat her repeatedly with a belt. Would you consider that abuse, mom? Now, seeing it this way, yes, she said, and apologized for the many years I felt I could not get my point across. I just wanted her to acknowledge it happened, that it was abuse, and it would have made it easier to move on.

Do I spend my life worrying about it? No. Have I for all these years? No. Do I want people to challenge me when I say I was abused? NO!!

So stop, everyone, challenging those who were abused at MMS. To them that is what it was, you cannot convince them otherwise. Just as no one could ever convince me that I was not abused as a child. Emotional and phsychological abuse can leave more scars than physical abuse, so they say. It is far more recognized today than ever before.
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 15, 2005, 11:11:00 AM
Please quit calling those of us who had a good experience there "brainwashed".
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: katfish on May 15, 2005, 12:11:00 PM
Anon- curious, are you saying:

You wrote:
Life scared me

Life gets cold.....ANd we need to keep going

Life is painful......that doesn't mean that I get to just check out from my life.

Life is full of shit.... SO keep dealing with it.

Life is lonely........And I deal with this stuff everyday....

 And are you saying  that
because the school was able to recreate these experiences for you- being cold, pain, shit (shoveling shit presumably- called out on your 'shit', etc) and lonliness and these metaphorical reproductions of real life made you realize that if you could surmount so much while at MMS, why not in real life?


I think it's great MMS was good for you and helpful, my experience was so different that it's hard for me to understand, how are MMS tactics are acceptable?
I think you can figure out the difference b/w those that are versus those that aren't- like excersize ok but days/weeks of intervention at the schools benifit maybe a little manipulative and at the expense of our schooling entirely unacceptable, John intimidation and yelling, smirking and power hungry not ok, labeling all as addicts seems a bit premature and can really fuck up a vulnerable teens idea of themselve so not ok, etc, etc, etc.  I think it's common sense.
 
As I have posted elsewhere, I thought MMS tactics out of line, the attack therapy ineffective (and better methods available, the lack of ability to speak up about things going on that felt wrong (children should be seen not heard, so to speak), just the fear and the strenous labor which was quite excessive.  I don't mind work, but that was insanity! And I learned a lot, don't get me wrong- that' doesn't mean all that much to me compratively, but it's something.

I also think that it's cause for concern that girls, even girls who adore MMS, still have nightmares about going there and not being allowed to leave- after 10 years!  Read the postings on - I think it's called i'm confused.  Girls start telling John, but I have a college degree! And I work!  A dream about having to answer to John, seems quite appropriate considering the way the school worked.  If you're having nightmare, something fucked up is going on.

I live 20 blocks away from the World Trade Center and saw the twin towers go down- many mornings I wake up at loud sounds in terror
that a bomb has just been let off down my street.  The feeling was the same I used to get in my MMS nightmares- although I haven't had one in about 5 years.  It's about trauma, though, and there's got to be a better way than retraumatizing girls over and over again at MMS for the sake of having the girls deal with the origical trauma.  Frankly, what I think MMS does is shock the shit out of you for 2-4 years until you think it's normal and then let you go with a pocketful of 12 steps and a bunch of Mercerisms (as I like to call them.)  Oh and let us not forget, with a lot of knowledge about skiing, horses, deer shit, knapp weeds, building fences, chopping wood, picking ice and rocks, hiking, layering clothing, mystical stories about how we're all on journeys and need to overcome obstacles that we can write bad plays about and our parents can politely applaud our efforts...I can't remember what else, but I make very little use of any of it now.

If you think it's MMS was great that's totally cool, but b/c that hasn't been the case for many girls makes it important for improvements to be made so that the cycle of girls (not girls like you) being admitted who leave feeling abused and worse off stops happening.  If you had great experience, would it make difference to you if improvements are made for the sake of the other girls who felt MMS was abusive?[ This Message was edited by: katfish on 2005-08-12 14:18 ]
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on May 15, 2005, 01:06:00 PM
I am the anon who posted:
Life gets cold.....ANd we need to keep going

Life is painful......that doesn't mean that I get to just check out from my life.

Life is full of shit.... SO keep dealing with it.

Life is lonely........And I deal with this stuff everyday....



Anyways- I agree that changes need to be made, I don't think everything was acceptable there.  MMS has changed and is changing.  Some one also said earlier "that MMS was like living with an alcoholic parent you never knew what was coming."  At first I agreed with that in a lot of ways---then I mulled it over because I have lived with an alcoholic parent---MMS and my alchoholic parent aren't even compariable.  I was a nuerotic child of an alcholic before I ever went to MMS.  

I am not discounting what any body is saying. I understand all of this feelings, and beleifs, because I have had them too.  

Though I had to get through that stuff, I have realized that it had nothing to do with the school why I had all this anger when I got out----it had everything to do with me.  

MMS is not a monopoly---It is not a cure all for everything or everybody.  

I respect people who have anger, and beleifs of abuse.   This forum it undoubtedly about you having your own expeerience  around this stuff.  

It has been very helpful for me to be here.  I realize that everyone is very sensitive here, and some what defensive,  I would be to.  No one needs to become defensive towards me.  I have posted a lot on this site and had never been hanging my good expereince over anyones head.  Though I have gotten responses like I am.  Because I have never claimed that I had a good expereince there.  I can sit here and be very clear even after reading everythign on this website That MMs helped me more then harmed me.  

I could probable interject all sorts of juicy information---that you guys would probable agree with and put on the list of what needs to be forcable changed about MMS.  Wheather or not MMS is a cult, and whether of not abuse went on there, And wheather or not they got 40 thousand a year,  it helped me have the life I have today which I wouldn't trade for anything.

I have been very open in telling the school and people there how it needs to improve and where I think it lacking, and what could be done better.  

I don't see much coming out of a lawsuit.  Though using your voices is so important, I support that.  I support you getting clarity, and being heard.  ANd I have heard you.

Thanks
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: katfish on May 15, 2005, 01:34:00 PM
well said, anon.  I may not agree with everything and even strongly disgree on some points, but I think I've posted enough on those points- anyway, well said.  

kat[ This Message was edited by: katfish on 2005-05-15 10:34 ]
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: kerryberry420 on May 15, 2005, 04:28:00 PM
my god this got out of control this has turned into a war between girls each trying to prove that they are right.  that wasn't what this was about at all.  this was ONLY about trying to make legislature that monitors programs more closely.  not just mms, all of them.  the "teen help" industry is the fastest growing industry in the country and programs are popping up everywhere, i persoanlly think there should be an agency created just to monitor these programs.  not something to get in the way of what they are doing but somehting to make sure that the girls (and boys) come first.  sorry i let myself get off of my own topic even, but this was really all i wanted to get across.
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on July 20, 2005, 07:53:00 PM
Man, and all those people who were my friends. I try to ask for help and they don't even reply when I contact them. so llame. So fake. Just wait til everything blows up in your faces.
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on August 17, 2005, 10:55:00 PM
Just wanted tell everyone that I went to the reunion and nither Colleen or anyone from that school has been in touch with me. When I received the invitation I was so excited and felt honored to be asked back. I couldn't wait to see all of my friends that I haven't seen in 10 years. All of my mentors who showed me the best they could the right directions. The "chain gang", the memories I have, the songs we sang, the compassion that we showed. When my mom and I drove down Guest Ranch Road for the first time in 10 yrs I felt so scared, nervous, excited. Remembering the last time I was their like it was yesterday. It being one of the most painful day I have ever had. It didn't matter that was in the past. I couldn't wait to see all of the faces of my friends. When I got out of the car I only saw a few that I recognized. I thought that maybe they will arrive later. I shortly realized that I was wrong. I began to feel the tears running down my face. What happened to everyone? Why aren't their more people here? I continued to ask myself this question all day. It was the first time I heard about Elizabeth M. I can't believe it. This broke my heart. I know that I cared about everyone that I shared a memory with, I feel it in my heart. Towards the end of the day I walked out to the Ski Cabin with my mom and it looked really run downed. The corral that was built was falling apart, the kitchen was missing boards. Everything that we built that intervention (you know what i am talking about if you were there) was falling apart. I then realized what a statement, what a metaphor.
I was not a "success" at MMS and it was the hardest thing I ever did. What I do know is that it was all of you that helped me make it through, made me smile and laugh when times where hard, made me feel safe to cry,be angry, and tell my most deepest secrets. I just wanted to tell you all that it would be really easy for me to bash on MMS but no one is perfect. I know I am not and I know that all of you aren't and weren't either, including MMS. I miss you all.

Love,
Cotter
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on August 17, 2005, 11:29:00 PM
Cotter....
It was good to see you at the reunion.
Mised you and wasn't sure what happened.
Well keep in touch and lets pick up where we left off....like we always do.
B
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on August 18, 2005, 09:23:00 AM
What do you mean you "felt honored to be invited?" Did these fine people PICK AND CHOOSE who was invited? Aren't REUNIONS open to each and every person who ever attended this FINE school?
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: Anonymous on August 18, 2005, 10:25:00 AM
actually, this reunions was for those who are supportive alumni.
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: katfish on August 18, 2005, 11:07:00 AM
that can't be right- i was invited too! LOL
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: funnygirl on August 18, 2005, 05:10:00 PM
honored to be invited meant that I was expelled and I thought that I would never be asked back. That is what my meant!
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: natalie on July 07, 2006, 05:45:00 AM
becca from detroit???
Title: Didn't we all used to be friends?
Post by: katfish on July 08, 2006, 02:22:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-07-07 02:45:00, natalie wrote:

"becca from detroit???




"


no, she's a different one- would love to get a hold of becca though- what was her last name? conry?